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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 26, 2017 15:29:11 GMT
This one always bothered me. I haven't read The Ghosts of N-Space, but I was able to find a summary that claims that the phenomenon is named for a human physicist named Aaron Blinovitch.
That's fine, whatever. My real question is why the Time Lords need to use an English loan word for something they must have encountered on their own long before Blinovitch was born. Is this ever addressed anywhere? If not, do you have a bit of head canon to explain it?
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Post by newt5996 on Jul 26, 2017 15:38:54 GMT
This one always bothered me. I haven't read The Ghosts of N-Space, but I was able to find a summary that claims that the phenomenon is named for a human physicist named Aaron Blinovitch. That's fine, whatever. My real question is why the Time Lords need to use an English loan word for something they must have encountered on their own long before Blinovitch was born. Is this ever addressed anywhere? If not, do you have a bit of head canon to explain it? It could just be the TARDIS translating the Time Lord's term into what the term is on Earth which is where most companions and the audience is from |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 15:49:06 GMT
This one always bothered me. I haven't read The Ghosts of N-Space, but I was able to find a summary that claims that the phenomenon is named for a human physicist named Aaron Blinovitch. That's fine, whatever. My real question is why the Time Lords need to use an English loan word for something they must have encountered on their own long before Blinovitch was born. Is this ever addressed anywhere? If not, do you have a bit of head canon to explain it? It could just be the TARDIS translating the Time Lord's term into what the term is on Earth which is where most companions and the audience is from Or it's what human time scientists call it. Time Lords seem to be immune so may not have bothered having a name for it. |
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Post by number13 on Aug 16, 2017 23:21:56 GMT
This one always bothered me. I haven't read The Ghosts of N-Space, but I was able to find a summary that claims that the phenomenon is named for a human physicist named Aaron Blinovitch. That's fine, whatever. My real question is why the Time Lords need to use an English loan word for something they must have encountered on their own long before Blinovitch was born. Is this ever addressed anywhere? If not, do you have a bit of head canon to explain it? It's a very Third Doctor bit of Time Lord lore - he mentions it first in 'The Day of the Daleks'. (It sounds like a Terrance Dicks line to me, but that's a total guess.) My theory is that the Doctor's memory of the Gallifreyan name for it was blocked by the Time Lords when he was sent into exile, like so much other knowledge. So he used the name of the first human to discover it, knowledge the Time Lords didn't share, so didn't block. The Doctor was always the Earth expert, far more than any other of his people. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2017 23:36:35 GMT
This one always bothered me. I haven't read The Ghosts of N-Space, but I was able to find a summary that claims that the phenomenon is named for a human physicist named Aaron Blinovitch. That's fine, whatever. My real question is why the Time Lords need to use an English loan word for something they must have encountered on their own long before Blinovitch was born. Is this ever addressed anywhere? If not, do you have a bit of head canon to explain it? It's a very Third Doctor bit of Time Lord lore - he mentions it first in 'The Day of the Daleks'. (It sounds like a Terrance Dicks line to me, but that's a total guess.) My theory is that the Doctor's memory of the Gallifreyan name for it was blocked by the Time Lords when he was sent into exile, like so much other knowledge. So he used the name of the first human to discover it, knowledge the Time Lords didn't share, so didn't block. The Doctor was always the Earth expert, far more than any other of his people. That would explain a number of other little bits and pieces of theories that the Doctor has scrounged up over the years. I think the Stattenheim remote control was developed by a human as well. Gallifrey and Earth have a very strange relationship when you look at it long enough. I wish someone would put in a line somewhere as to why he doesn't use one. Mechanical fault on the Type 40 since its first use is what I suspect. |
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Post by barnabaslives on Aug 17, 2017 4:02:09 GMT
I think the Stattenheim remote control was developed by a human as well. Gallifrey and Earth have a very strange relationship when you look at it long enough. My current theory is that on Gallifrey they are covertly obsessed with Earth culture, which might help explain a lot of terrestrial terminology that seems to come out the mouths of Gallifreyans as well as any occasional precocious amount of knowledge about Earth culture such as of artists or philosophers or composers. (I'm glad if the writers don't have to trouble themselves to invent a lot of Gallifreyan expressions - especially after "Time Tots") :-) |
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Post by jasonward on Aug 17, 2017 5:31:46 GMT
I think the Stattenheim remote control was developed by a human as well. Gallifrey and Earth have a very strange relationship when you look at it long enough. My current theory is that on Gallifrey they are covertly obsessed with Earth culture, which might help explain a lot of terrestrial terminology that seems to come out the mouths of Gallifreyans as well as any occasional precocious amount of knowledge about Earth culture such as of artists or philosophers or composers. (I'm glad if the writers don't have to trouble themselves to invent a lot of Gallifreyan expressions - especially after "Time Tots") :-) I think a lot of this has to do with The Tardis (and it's brethren) to me it's clear that The Tardis doesn't do what the Universal Translator of the Star Trek universe does, it doesn't merely translate words, it aims to make those it's translating for fit it, it translates memes, cultural references and much more besides and we the viewer are one of the benefactors of this, Timelords are often not talking about the things we think, but the Tardis does it's best job to make what they are saying make sense to us, real sense, not leave us with words but no grasp of the cultural references, it's translates the whole meaning whilst at the same time ensuring that the Timelords (and in the case of the Doctor companions) can appear perfectly normal in an alien culture. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 5:45:55 GMT
My current theory is that on Gallifrey they are covertly obsessed with Earth culture, which might help explain a lot of terrestrial terminology that seems to come out the mouths of Gallifreyans as well as any occasional precocious amount of knowledge about Earth culture such as of artists or philosophers or composers. (I'm glad if the writers don't have to trouble themselves to invent a lot of Gallifreyan expressions - especially after "Time Tots") :-) I think a lot of this has to do with The Tardis (and it's brethren) to me it's clear that The Tardis doesn't do what the Universal Translator of the Star Trek universe does, it doesn't merely translate words, it aims to make those it's translating for fit it, it translates memes, cultural references and much more besides and we the viewer are one of the benefactors of this, Timelords are often not talking about the things we think, but the Tardis does it's best job to make what they are saying make sense to us, real sense, not leave us with words but no grasp of the cultural references, it's translates the whole meaning whilst at the same time ensuring that the Timelords (and in the case of the Doctor companions) can appear perfectly normal in an alien culture. Yes, if humans call it the Blinovitch limitation effect then why would the TARDIS translate the Gallifreyan name into something else. Even when the first time we hear it ised is centuries before humans coin the phrase, the TARDIS is a time machine so could still know the correct human name for it. |
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Post by seeley on Aug 17, 2017 6:26:35 GMT
I'm not familiar with every single reference to the Effect (most of which are in the Expanded Universe, I believe,) so I don't know if any other Timelords use it. As for the Doctor, I see it as little different than him comparing something to the Marie Celeste-He's been around humans so long he thinks in terms of their history. The one piece of Timelord terminology which he does use, as far as I can remember, is the Rassilon Imprimatur, and that refers to something exclusive to their technology.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 6:38:53 GMT
I think a lot of this has to do with The Tardis (and it's brethren) to me it's clear that The Tardis doesn't do what the Universal Translator of the Star Trek universe does, it doesn't merely translate words, it aims to make those it's translating for fit it, it translates memes, cultural references and much more besides and we the viewer are one of the benefactors of this, Timelords are often not talking about the things we think, but the Tardis does it's best job to make what they are saying make sense to us, real sense, not leave us with words but no grasp of the cultural references, it's translates the whole meaning whilst at the same time ensuring that the Timelords (and in the case of the Doctor companions) can appear perfectly normal in an alien culture. Yes, if humans call it the Blinovitch limitation effect then why would the TARDIS translate the Gallifreyan name into something else. Even when the first time we hear it ised is centuries before humans coin the phrase, the TARDIS is a time machine so could still know the correct human name for it. Less "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" in the Whoniverse, which is a bit of a shame in some respects. I always tend to get very metatextual with the TARDIS's translation circuit, it's very difficult not to when you're writing. I think it translates not only for the characters, but the audience as well, so when the Doctor says something like "Vanagen's Pathless Future" it gets filtered down into "Plato's Cave." |
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Post by Whovitt on Aug 17, 2017 6:58:45 GMT
I'm not familiar with every single reference to the Effect (most of which are in the Expanded Universe, I believe,) so I don't know if any other Timelords use it. As for the Doctor, I see it as little different than him comparing something to the Marie Celeste-He's been around humans so long he thinks in terms of their history. The one piece of Timelord terminology which he does use, as far as I can remember, is the Rassilon Imprimatur, and that refers to something exclusive to their technology. Neither. I'm aware that it's used in Day of the Daleks and Mawdryn Undead, and neither of those feature other Time Lords. Makes them a bit useless as reference points... As for how the TARDIS translates, well, that's anyone's guess  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 8:21:25 GMT
I'm not familiar with every single reference to the Effect (most of which are in the Expanded Universe, I believe,) so I don't know if any other Timelords use it. As for the Doctor, I see it as little different than him comparing something to the Marie Celeste-He's been around humans so long he thinks in terms of their history. The one piece of Timelord terminology which he does use, as far as I can remember, is the Rassilon Imprimatur, and that refers to something exclusive to their technology. Curiously, not all of what he said to Jamie would have necessarily been true either, since he knew that Stike was listening behind him. The first time he meets Ian and Barbara, he uses their terminology to describe the nature of the TARDIS and Ian still doesn't comprehend its mechanics, so there's definitely an active component to it. The Doctor is capable of doing it deliberately and not through translation matrices. The grey areas with this kind of stuff always fascinate me. A good example is that Horror of Fang Rock establishes that the Rutan only need to dissect one human in order to imitate a human shape and their methods of metamorphosis have come a long way by the time of Lords of the Storm. However, the scout who imitated a Sontaran named "Karne" in Shakedown dissects all his victims, which would point to a form of sadism on his part. It's not stated within the text, but an informed attribute based on information around it. |
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Post by valeyard on Aug 17, 2017 8:43:14 GMT
Timelords may have observed this phenomenon on Earth and even named it after the person it happened to.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 17, 2017 8:58:14 GMT
It's a very Third Doctor bit of Time Lord lore - he mentions it first in 'The Day of the Daleks'. (It sounds like a Terrance Dicks line to me, but that's a total guess.) My theory is that the Doctor's memory of the Gallifreyan name for it was blocked by the Time Lords when he was sent into exile, like so much other knowledge. So he used the name of the first human to discover it, knowledge the Time Lords didn't share, so didn't block. The Doctor was always the Earth expert, far more than any other of his people. That would explain a number of other little bits and pieces of theories that the Doctor has scrounged up over the years. I think the Stattenheim remote control was developed by a human as well. Gallifrey and Earth have a very strange relationship when you look at it long enough. I wish someone would put in a line somewhere as to why he doesn't use one. Mechanical fault on the Type 40 since its first use is what I suspect. I think it's the Doctor never gets his hands on a remote (freely). Given his piloting skills I don't think it's too much of an jump to suggest he simply doesn't have the skills to make one of his own either, he does seem to suggest it's a highly advanced bit of kit in The Two Doctors. |
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Post by sherlock on Aug 17, 2017 9:00:12 GMT
My current theory is that on Gallifrey they are covertly obsessed with Earth culture, which might help explain a lot of terrestrial terminology that seems to come out the mouths of Gallifreyans as well as any occasional precocious amount of knowledge about Earth culture such as of artists or philosophers or composers. (I'm glad if the writers don't have to trouble themselves to invent a lot of Gallifreyan expressions - especially after "Time Tots") :-) I think a lot of this has to do with The Tardis (and it's brethren) to me it's clear that The Tardis doesn't do what the Universal Translator of the Star Trek universe does, it doesn't merely translate words, it aims to make those it's translating for fit it, it translates memes, cultural references and much more besides and we the viewer are one of the benefactors of this, Timelords are often not talking about the things we think, but the Tardis does it's best job to make what they are saying make sense to us, real sense, not leave us with words but no grasp of the cultural references, it's translates the whole meaning whilst at the same time ensuring that the Timelords (and in the case of the Doctor companions) can appear perfectly normal in an alien culture. I like this theory. Presumably the whole point of the translation circuit is to enable the pilot to ceamlessly blend in, given the Time Lords' focus on non-intervention, so it makes sense it would alter terminology to its closest native equivalent. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2017 12:15:18 GMT
That would explain a number of other little bits and pieces of theories that the Doctor has scrounged up over the years. I think the Stattenheim remote control was developed by a human as well. Gallifrey and Earth have a very strange relationship when you look at it long enough. I wish someone would put in a line somewhere as to why he doesn't use one. Mechanical fault on the Type 40 since its first use is what I suspect. I think it's the Doctor never gets his hands on a remote (freely). Given his piloting skills I don't think it's too much of an jump to suggest he simply doesn't have the skills to make one of his own either, he does seem to suggest it's a highly advanced bit of kit in The Two Doctors. An almost unique privilege. I can't see the Second Doctor having it and not trying to figure out how it works. Maybe that knowledge was something that the Time Lords erased during his exile and it never came back? |
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Post by sherlock on Aug 17, 2017 14:28:31 GMT
I think it's the Doctor never gets his hands on a remote (freely). Given his piloting skills I don't think it's too much of an jump to suggest he simply doesn't have the skills to make one of his own either, he does seem to suggest it's a highly advanced bit of kit in The Two Doctors. An almost unique privilege. I can't see the Second Doctor having it and not trying to figure out how it works. Maybe that knowledge was something that the Time Lords erased during his exile and it never came back? Well Big Finish's placement of The Two Doctors does include a handy memory wipe which could account for that. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2017 2:16:20 GMT
An almost unique privilege. I can't see the Second Doctor having it and not trying to figure out how it works. Maybe that knowledge was something that the Time Lords erased during his exile and it never came back? Well Big Finish's placement of The Two Doctors does include a handy memory wipe which could account for that. Even the alternative endorsed by Terrance Dicks has the wipe (it's interesting to think that maybe the trial mentioned in Frontier in Space where the Doctor ridicules his prosecution mightn't actually be bluster), so no particular problems there. However, Timewyrm: Exodus makes it a bit more complicated. The Doctor has a "keyring" that can turn the TARDIS invisible and brings it to him by whistling, which sounds exactly like a Stattenheim remote control. He has problems with the retrieval function in that story though ("It's always the little things," he curses), so the reason he might not use it is due to its unreliability. |
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