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Post by theotherjosh on Aug 1, 2017 15:54:12 GMT
What distinction do you draw between the terms? In the Revived series, the Doctor's species is often given as "Time Lord" and that never sat right with me. I assume that has to be for the benefit of newer viewers. If all surviving Gallifreyans are Time Lords, why give them two terms when they effectively mean the same thing?
On the other hand, I think that Rassilon Imprimatur is something specific to Time Lords (as opposed to baseline Gallifreyans) and it does involve a change to biology, perhaps one so significant that the Time Lords would be considered a separate species. (I admit to being fuzzy about the details, so I could be way off with this.)
I'd tend to refer to refer to female Time Lord's as Time Lords rather than Time Ladies, but that's a matter of personal preference and I don't dispute the validity of the term. It's as one might use "actor" to refer to Meryl Streep. One could also say "actress", and it mostly comes down to the preference of the person being addressed.
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Post by mrperson on Aug 1, 2017 16:50:48 GMT
Recall the episode (Hide?) where they end up accidentally going to the Doctor's youth, or so it is heavily implied, and only Clara leaves the TARDIS? I recall the crying boy's father saying something to the effect of "something something academy. He'll never make Time Lord." I don't know about biology, but that at least indicates that Time Lord/Lady status is something earned via training.
Also, consider Hell Bent. The people around the farmhouse certainly didn't look or behave like "Time Lords".
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Post by omega on Aug 1, 2017 17:12:38 GMT
Gallifreyans are natives of Gallifrey but who aren't part of the Time Lord aristocracy. Think the outsiders in Invasion of Time. Time Lords and Ladies are the posh Gallifreyans, the upper class, who are privy to and can get access to what manipulation over time allows.
Time Lord is the overall term for Time Lords and Time Ladies. Much like how we use mankind to describe people in general. Clearly Gallifrey also developed as a patriarchal society.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 1, 2017 17:21:13 GMT
Clearly Gallifrey also developed as a patriarchal society. Or they didn't, but we did, and our language forces apparent gender on to the translation that does not exist in the original.
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Post by omega on Aug 1, 2017 17:26:16 GMT
Clearly Gallifrey also developed as a patriarchal society. Or they didn't, but we did, and our language forces apparent gender on to the translation that does not exist in the original. Or that Time Lord society was developed in a time where writers characterised them as ineffective bureaucrats and it was several appearances before the first appearance of a Time Lady, and a short while before the term Time Lady was actually used.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 1, 2017 17:36:54 GMT
Or they didn't, but we did, and our language forces apparent gender on to the translation that does not exist in the original. Or that Time Lord society was developed in a time where writers characterised them as ineffective bureaucrats and it was several appearances before the first appearance of a Time Lady, and a short while before the term Time Lady was actually used. I'm not really following you, or have you switched to out of universe reasons? In which case for sure, Timelord society as portrayed by the writers and producers past is a reflection of them, their audience and their society, but in universe, Timelord society developed independently of anything we did here on earth, indeed is alien to us, and you have to treat as suspect a huge amount of what is assumed by us and implicit in our language and accepted behaviours and norms, and not necessarily see things on Galifrey as conforming to those.
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Post by omega on Aug 1, 2017 17:45:22 GMT
Or that Time Lord society was developed in a time where writers characterised them as ineffective bureaucrats and it was several appearances before the first appearance of a Time Lady, and a short while before the term Time Lady was actually used. I'm not really following you, or have you switched to out of universe reasons? In which case for sure, Timelord society as portrayed by the writers and producers past is a reflection of them, their audience and their society, but in universe, Timelord society developed independently of anything we did here on earth, indeed is alien to us, and you have to treat as suspect a huge amount of what is assumed by us and implicit in our language and accepted behaviours and norms, and not necessarily see things on Galifrey as conforming to those. Most art is a reflection of the period and/or the people involved in creating it. What we know of Time Lord society was created back in the late 70's. There have been revisions to earlier periods of Gallifreyan society by later writers. Probably the earliest we see, or rather hear, of the Time Lords first hand is in Zagreus, where Charley briefly visits the period just after Gallifreyans are able to use time travel. It doesn't paint the newly christened Time Lords, or at least Rassilon is a positive light. Until we get a rough history of Gallifrey we've got our human assumptions to work on. I've haven't had much exposure to the Gallifrey audio range, so anyone feel free to enlighten me if that contains any information on early Gallifrey.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 1, 2017 17:54:17 GMT
I'm not really following you, or have you switched to out of universe reasons? In which case for sure, Timelord society as portrayed by the writers and producers past is a reflection of them, their audience and their society, but in universe, Timelord society developed independently of anything we did here on earth, indeed is alien to us, and you have to treat as suspect a huge amount of what is assumed by us and implicit in our language and accepted behaviours and norms, and not necessarily see things on Galifrey as conforming to those. Most art is a reflection of the period and/or the people involved in creating it. What we know of Time Lord society was created back in the late 70's. There have been revisions to earlier periods of Gallifreyan society by later writers. Probably the earliest we see, or rather hear, of the Time Lords first hand is in Zagreus, where Charley briefly visits the period just after Gallifreyans are able to use time travel. It doesn't paint the newly christened Time Lords, or at least Rassilon is a positive light. Until we get a rough history of Gallifrey we've got our human assumptions to work on. I've haven't had much exposure to the Gallifrey audio range, so anyone feel free to enlighten me if that contains any information on early Gallifrey. OK, but in universe and out of universe reasons for things are two very different beasts. This thread of the discussion started because you said Clearly Gallifrey also developed as a patriarchal society. which is in universe and I believe might be true or not. Out of universe yes, it reflects all that you state, in universe it does not.
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Post by mrperson on Aug 1, 2017 18:11:29 GMT
Clearly Gallifrey also developed as a patriarchal society. Or they didn't, but we did, and our language forces apparent gender on to the translation that does not exist in the original. They were presented as gendered Time Lords and Time Ladies in the past because nobody was thinking about sex-change regeneration. Still, I suppose that if one accepts that the holder of the rights (BBC) determines what is and is not canon, and that that holder announces in 2017 that they were secretly genderless all along, that this is essentially just another bit retcon. I still don't think I can watch the old series and think "ok, genderless. Remember that, self, they're genderless" because they just weren't...... until a few offhand remarks were made over the recent seasons. Of course, even those seasons are contradictory. We have Moffat's off-color joke regarding The Master being aroused by Missy, which certainly implies some kind of gendered nature. Even if it was supposed to just be a joke, it happened. Which makes a mess of things. Originally, there were Time Lords and Time Ladies, which were presented as gendered. There were also non-elite Gallifreyans: "outsiders", and possibly also the guards. Now, There are Time Lords and Time ladies, which are supposed to be "genderless", except to the extent that a single time lord can turn itself on if it has a gendered sex-change regeneration and runs into itself. There still appear to be non-elite Gallifreyans: people like those shown around the barn in Hell Bent, who do not appear to be proper 'outsiders'; possibly also city-dwellers such as civilians shown being hunted down in the war scenes during Day.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 1, 2017 18:20:44 GMT
Why do you think Timelords are "now" genderless? I don't see or hear anything to support that. Missy was female, the new Doctor is female.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 1, 2017 20:17:13 GMT
Timelords all the way (or Shboogans/ Outsiders or Chancellery Guard ) Regards mark687
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Post by Ela on Aug 1, 2017 20:39:36 GMT
I recall times where all were referred to as Timelords, regardless of gender, so that's what I would go with.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 1, 2017 20:46:08 GMT
It was my understanding that Time Lords were Gallifreyans who graduated from the Academy and were gifted with the Rassilon Imperatu and regeneration. Average Gallifreyans presumably enter more subservient roles in society, since the pre-Academy Doctor only seems to have the choice between becoming a Time Lord or joining the army in Listen. Presumably some Gallifreyans took offence to this and abandoned society, becoming the Outsiders featured in The Invasion of Time. Given Gallifrey's seclusion, the rest of the universe is unlikely to have known the distinction so simply assumed Time Lords was the name of the whole species, and the Time Lords never sought to correct them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 21:34:55 GMT
Prior to Romana's presidency, the term Time Lord referred to a ruling elite of Gallifreyans who had been granted the privilege of TARDIS and possessed a certain mastery over space-time mechanics thanks to training and experience garnered at the Academy. However, once she opened up the Academy to alien species like the Monan Host, the term became a lot more fluid. By the War, it doesn't necessarily cover just Gallifreyans anymore, but potentially a new group of uplifted species as well. I'm not really following you, or have you switched to out of universe reasons? In which case for sure, Timelord society as portrayed by the writers and producers past is a reflection of them, their audience and their society, but in universe, Timelord society developed independently of anything we did here on earth, indeed is alien to us, and you have to treat as suspect a huge amount of what is assumed by us and implicit in our language and accepted behaviours and norms, and not necessarily see things on Galifrey as conforming to those. Most art is a reflection of the period and/or the people involved in creating it. What we know of Time Lord society was created back in the late 70's. There have been revisions to earlier periods of Gallifreyan society by later writers. Probably the earliest we see, or rather hear, of the Time Lords first hand is in Zagreus, where Charley briefly visits the period just after Gallifreyans are able to use time travel. It doesn't paint the newly christened Time Lords, or at least Rassilon is a positive light. Until we get a rough history of Gallifrey we've got our human assumptions to work on. I've haven't had much exposure to the Gallifrey audio range, so anyone feel free to enlighten me if that contains any information on early Gallifrey. That's a trend which started with The Five Doctors, I think. The Second Doctor mentions that there are many rumours and legends that contradict Rassilon's supposed benevolence and the Black Scrolls planted in the Castellan's quarters would give them no small amount of weight. The idea that the Time Lords, specifically Rassilon, sacrificed Omega to the Black Hole for the boon of time travel goes waaaaay back to The Three Doctors. It's interesting to see each new revision build on what was seen previously and giving it just the smallest change in emphasis. It's important to remember that in storytelling terms, vanilla is also a flavour. Only a few things about the Great Houses (which with or without looms, still exist in the form of Heartshaven and those like it) and further pushes the idea of Gallifrey as a patriarchal society through Darkel and the Imperiatrix Pandora who shares a few qualities with the Pythia whose legacy Rassilon destroyed. A remnant of her power still exists on Karn in the Sisterhood and with Lady Peinforte before her death. Given the Gallifreyans' history with matriarchal rulers and the way Gallifreyans cope with crises in general, I'd say they just ignore Time Ladies. They're not Draconians, they wouldn't relegate them to the status of non-persons like they do their females, but they wouldn't acknowledge femininity or masculinity because they don't acknowledge their own gendered traits. Age seems far more important a quality. In general, the Time Lords are depicted as very Victorian in that the whole concept of physicality is rather repulsive to them. They don't like being reminded that they're flesh and blood. Consequently, the term Time Lord and Time Lady means something very different to them in the same way that chess was seen as "a mere amusement of a very inferior character" in the 19th century ( yes, really) and the Waltz was a debauched and lewd form of dancing. Different society, different emphasis.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2017 21:55:27 GMT
I am in the they are all Time Lords camp.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 6:09:21 GMT
What distinction do you draw between the terms? In the Revived series, the Doctor's species is often given as "Time Lord" and that never sat right with me. I assume that has to be for the benefit of newer viewers. If all surviving Gallifreyans are Time Lords, why give them two terms when they effectively mean the same thing? On the other hand, I think that Rassilon Imprimatur is something specific to Time Lords (as opposed to baseline Gallifreyans) and it does involve a change to biology, perhaps one so significant that the Time Lords would be considered a separate species. (I admit to being fuzzy about the details, so I could be way off with this.) I'd tend to refer to refer to female Time Lord's as Time Lords rather than Time Ladies, but that's a matter of personal preference and I don't dispute the validity of the term. It's as one might use "actor" to refer to Meryl Streep. One could also say "actress", and it mostly comes down to the preference of the person being addressed. It's not purely a revival anomaly. Right baxk in the War Games the Doctor says the Time Lords are his people. But like many others I tend to think the Time Lords are the academy graduates and the Gallifreyans are an underclass who do the scut work.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 7:31:00 GMT
What distinction do you draw between the terms? In the Revived series, the Doctor's species is often given as "Time Lord" and that never sat right with me. I assume that has to be for the benefit of newer viewers. If all surviving Gallifreyans are Time Lords, why give them two terms when they effectively mean the same thing? On the other hand, I think that Rassilon Imprimatur is something specific to Time Lords (as opposed to baseline Gallifreyans) and it does involve a change to biology, perhaps one so significant that the Time Lords would be considered a separate species. (I admit to being fuzzy about the details, so I could be way off with this.) I'd tend to refer to refer to female Time Lord's as Time Lords rather than Time Ladies, but that's a matter of personal preference and I don't dispute the validity of the term. It's as one might use "actor" to refer to Meryl Streep. One could also say "actress", and it mostly comes down to the preference of the person being addressed. It's not purely a revival anomaly. Right back in the War Games the Doctor says the Time Lords are his people. But like many others I tend to think the Time Lords are the Academy graduates and the Gallifreyans are an underclass who do the scut work. Scut work being relative, of course. Runcible was a graduate of the Academy and yet seemed to be doing -- Ah... I can't use the word "drudge" because it means something completely different. Erm, he was doing the menial task of presenting Public Register Video. On the other hand, maybe it was only Academy graduates who could do events like the Presidental Resignation Day. It's stated that once one typically applied (or was recommended) to the Academy, the applicant is vetted by an examination commission made up of senior Time Lords. I have a theory that those of the lesser Houses who were typically ineligible for positions at the Academy could still be sponsored by distinguished graduates, tutors or proctors. Lungbarrow was by no means a disgraced House, but Quences was originally responsible for the Doctor's induction to the Academy. His intention was that one day, the young boy would become the first of their family to ascend beyond typical civil service and become a Lord Cardinal, but the Doctor's willfulness put a sizeable hitch in that plan... Perhaps a large part of the divide between Gallifreyan and Time Lord is one has to know the right people.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 2, 2017 13:56:01 GMT
What distinction do you draw between the terms? In the Revived series, the Doctor's species is often given as "Time Lord" and that never sat right with me. I assume that has to be for the benefit of newer viewers. If all surviving Gallifreyans are Time Lords, why give them two terms when they effectively mean the same thing? On the other hand, I think that Rassilon Imprimatur is something specific to Time Lords (as opposed to baseline Gallifreyans) and it does involve a change to biology, perhaps one so significant that the Time Lords would be considered a separate species. (I admit to being fuzzy about the details, so I could be way off with this.) I'd tend to refer to refer to female Time Lord's as Time Lords rather than Time Ladies, but that's a matter of personal preference and I don't dispute the validity of the term. It's as one might use "actor" to refer to Meryl Streep. One could also say "actress", and it mostly comes down to the preference of the person being addressed. It's not purely a revival anomaly. Right baxk in the War Games the Doctor says the Time Lords are his people. But like many others I tend to think the Time Lords are the academy graduates and the Gallifreyans are an underclass who do the scut work. My take is that Timelords and Galifreyans are different races, but not greatly so, perhaps not even the difference between wolves and dogs, distinct but clearly closely related. In my mind, Timelords initially set themselves apart by being in some way altered by the technology and actions of Rasilon and his allies, perhaps initially all Timelords were all his allies, but since that time Timelords have kept themselves mostly apart from Galifreyans adopting the role of aristocracy, I suspect it may still be possible for Galifreyans to become Timelords but that this has become increasingly rare, and that some Timelords have from time to time rejected Timelord society and gone on to live as a Galifreyans, which of course may well mean that over time some Timelord genetic traits have made their way into the general Galifreyan gene pool.
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Post by mrperson on Aug 2, 2017 16:52:53 GMT
Why do you think Timelords are "now" genderless? I don't see or hear anything to support that. Missy was female, the new Doctor is female. Bear in mind that sex and gender are different, though related. I don't have exact quotes handy, but Moffat definitely had both Missy and The Doctor make comments about how the Timelords were beyond petty human concepts of gender. It makes more sense to me to read that as "genderless", aka, beyond-gender, than as indicating they still have genders but these are somehow higher-level genders than human ones. And, as we see with sex-change regeneration, having the main characters make a few comments about how it's possible is all the in-universe reason we have for sex-change regeneration now being a thing. So..... they have sex but they are genderless, these days. :shrug: Edits. See for example, World and Enough Time: The Doctor: She was my first friend, always so brilliant, from the first day at the academy. So fast, so funny. She was my man crush. Bill: I'm sorry? The Doctor: Yeah, I think she was a man back then. I'm fairly sure that I was, too. It was a long time ago, though. Bill: So, the Time Lords, bit flexible on the whole man-woman thing, then, yeah? The Doctor: We're the most civilized civilization in the universe. We're billions of years beyond your petty human obsession with gender and its associated stereotypes. Bill: But you still call yourselves Time Lords? The Doctor: Yeah. Shut up.www.upworthy.com/10-doctor-who-quotes-that-show-why-its-the-perfect-time-for-a-woman-in-the-roleI may end up remembering others. I am certain there were a few more sprinkled throughout this and the last season, at the least.
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Post by mrperson on Aug 2, 2017 16:54:40 GMT
Anyway, gender aside, what do "all/only Timelord" camp make of things like:
1. Outsiders (classic - assassin?)
2. People at the barn not looking/acting like every other Time Lord shown.
3. Comment from hide from people we are to take to be Doctor's parents, or at least his keepers, that "he'll never make Timelord".
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Certainly the Doctor and Romana have referred to their people as "Time Lords", but you wouldn't really expect them to mention "by the way, there are non-Timelord outsiders on Gallifrey" in the course of such references. Generally would make not narrative sense. Just like you might explain that you are a human, and not get into all the various ethnicities, socio-economic classes, or any other such category when making a general statement.
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