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Post by Bazoolium on Aug 12, 2017 17:38:02 GMT
Do you think the 6th Doctor has mellowed out too much. Has his change in character made him less unique?
I do miss some of his spikiness. I think there is a happy medium to be found.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 12, 2017 18:11:33 GMT
Love BF's 6th Doctor, never felt that kind of love for the TV version. Happy for him to remain as BF have portrayed him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2017 18:40:36 GMT
Yeah, I think the Big Finish 'version' of the Sixth Doctor is a lot more palatable. For me Big Finish have made the Sixth Doctor a doctor that I love. On TV he was a grumpy arrogant git and I was glad when he was gone, as I never liked the spikiness that we got with the character on TV. Big Finish have got it spot on as far as I am concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 0:29:49 GMT
As someone who always loved the Sixth Doctor, I do very much miss some of the pomposity and bombast and bluster of the character when it comes to his continued audio adventures. And while they aren't attributes that need to be used all the time, I do think that Big Finish and Colin have over corrected by pretty much eliminating those facets of the character completely, and in my opinion the character does suffer for it at times. And to answer your question, yes, I do think it has made him less distinctive and unique.
After all, to paraphrase another Baker, there's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 1:04:37 GMT
I really like the progression from television to audio, he's one of the very few Doctors to get a readily discernible character arc from birth to death. Had Big Finish adopted Time of Your Life and Killing Ground in their novel range, it would've seen the Sixth Doctor at his most angry and despairing, including his television appearances. Most of it gets dealt with in the latter story where he's forced to come face-to-face at whether he actually likes who he is. And at the end, when he's decided not to let himself commit suicide, he whispers to himself honestly through parched lips: "I am the Doctor. Whether I like it or not."
It pops up from time to time after that, but for the most part, we get a Doctor closer to his BF appearances. Where he is right now with Constance and Flip is a pretty natural place for the character to be at the moment (Terror of the Vervoids isn't that far off). I'm trying to write for a Season 22/23 Sixie right now in one of my stories and I can very safely say that a happy balance is struck by the DWM comics, Attack of the Cybermen and The Two Doctors. He's boisterous, without being petulant. The crankiness stems less from throwing a fit at not getting his own way and is more about impatience towards others during a genuine crisis that demands his full attention. As long as they remember to keep some of those distinctive traits on Sixie (i.e. they keep writing him as the Sixth Doctor who is always a pedant, theatrical and alien), I think we'll be alright.
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Post by Timelord007 on Aug 13, 2017 8:04:23 GMT
Yeah, I think the Big Finish 'version' of the Sixth Doctor is a lot more palatable. For me Big Finish have made the Sixth Doctor a doctor that I love. On TV he was a grumpy arrogant git and I was glad when he was gone, as I never liked the spikiness that we got with the character on TV. Big Finish have got it spot on as far as I am concerned. I agree with exactly what Stevo said.
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 13, 2017 8:44:16 GMT
I've never been a collector of the Sixth Doctor range, so I can only comment based on what I've heard, which have generally been special appearances or stories; The Light at the End, Diary of River Song, Vampire of the Mind, The Last Adventure & Classic Doctors, New Monsters, etc.
And I think Big Finish often go too far in the opposite way of his TV persona, to the point where it's either not authentic or Colin might as well be playing another incarnation. That said, sometimes the mellowed persona works, such as in The Diary of River Song, where it's very effective. He does occasionally have his moments of bluster, but so does every other Doctor. Less Dr. Who and more Father Christmas.
Colin just isn't much of a unique Doctor anymore.... "whether you like it or not!"
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Post by Bazoolium on Aug 13, 2017 8:47:27 GMT
His appearance in Jago and Litefoot was perfect I thought. He was pompous, but he would realise and sometimes apologise.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 11:19:22 GMT
His appearance in Jago and Litefoot was perfect I thought. He was pompous, but he would realise and sometimes apologise. They've been very good at giving him really solid character moments. The Reaping had him suggest that the physicians fighting the cancer of Daniel Woods's wife should have given up because she was going to die anyway, which makes Daniel realise the value of pushing forward. They were the happiest years of that couple's lives. From something that could appear so callous and cruel, it turns into an extraordinary act of compassion on the Doctor's part. Another's his genuinely alien attitude towards bodysnatching in Medicinal Purposes, he doesn't see any particular problem with it. Actually, a whole story based around the more ragged edges of his persona is The Sandman. It still remains one of my favourites because it could only be done with the Sixth Doctor. An alien terror. A monster who skins children alive and weaves them into his coat. A legend whom all the Galyari fear... And someone who is using history to his own advantage to ensure that evil never rises again. If anyone is feeling a particular desire for a more aggressive Doctor and you haven't listened to this story, I would definitely recommend it for its subject matter. "For you see, Evelyn... I am every bit the monster they believe me to be..."
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Aug 13, 2017 13:52:45 GMT
I'm not sure
I've actually only seen a few random bits and pieces of Colin's TV stories, so can't make a fair judgement on his TV Persona, but the bits I have seen and reviews I've read point towards a Doctor who starts out as brash and arrogant, overly theatrical and at times explosively angry at the injustices of the universe, in short a very alien and rather spiky fellow...which I personally found very refreshing and interesting, I prefer it when the Doctor acts more alien and the writers explore his darker side (I adore Hartnell and Capaldi's Doctors for similar reasons) and I don't find the more generic, immediately human incarnations (5th and 10th spring to mind) that interesting as characters.
I've heard around 40 of Colin's audios, and whilst all the aspects above are present to some degree, they are so toned down or absent most of the time, sometimes I feel he might as well be playing a different Doctor, before I started listening to BF people often talked about how the 6th Doctor gradually mellowed over time into a softer character, but from the random selection of 6th Doctor audios I've heard I don't see much evidence of that, even in the 'Lost Stories' and early Evelyn stories which I gather were supposed to be a transition arc to the more mellow 6th Doctor, he's written as a much more cuddlier, likeable Doctor from the start, the bluster and anger exchanged for theatrical wordplay etc, it's not necessarily an issue as Colin plays this version of the 6th Doctor very very well...but I can't help but feel BF have mellowed or changed the 6th Doctor too much, from a brash theatrical Doctor into a more generic timelord, more a cuddlier yet preachy cosmic Father Christmas than wonderer in time and space.
I'm guessing Baker was so hurt by the reception of his Doctor on TV he pushed BF to bin the character and essentially reboot it, which in fairness has obviously been successful, but I can't help but wonder if it would have been more interesting to do things more gradually.
But like I said, I've not actually seen an entire Colin Baker serial, and have listened to quite a random selection of his audios, so I'm not an expert on his story arcs or history (and I gather more of the audios are set post trial anyway, so don't necessarily conflict with the TV personality) and have enjoyed his performance as the Doctor in the audios very much...just not entirely convinced it's faithful to the original character.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Aug 13, 2017 14:02:02 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 18:53:08 GMT
He was awful on telly. A horrible character.
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Post by relativetime on Aug 13, 2017 19:23:08 GMT
I dunno, I see quite a bit of his original character in the Lost Stories - though presented in a less antagonistic light as the Sixth Doctor sometimes was on television. It's also implied that the Sixth Doctor is only really that way around Peri in the 2014 trilogy of stories and that lines up pretty well with his behavior elsewhere. Besides, I still see enough of his television portrayal in the post-Trial audios to firmly establish this is the same character, just being handled with much more care by the writers. Of course, I haven't watched all of his television appearances - I've seen Attack of the Cybermen, Vengeance on Varos, quite a lot of The Twin Dilemma, and most of Trial of a Time Lord - so it is possible that I'm missing some of his more "rough" edges on television.
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Post by glynnlondon on Aug 13, 2017 19:23:31 GMT
I think it depends on what era 6 doctor. I'm sure a good script with Colin and Nicola could show his pompous bluster very nicely. The Evelyn era mellowed his character and dialled it down as was intended and Colin then made his portrayal better and better. Made him arguably the best loved doctor on audio. I would love to see an early 6 with peri , Colin and Nicola would have bags of fun with that 😃
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Post by constonks on Aug 13, 2017 21:14:58 GMT
Mmm I still think Big Finish manages to include those spikinesses at times. I mean they usually push ahead with Sixie, so his character development shows, but I agree that an early Six trilogy with Peri, set around Attack of the Cybermen, might be cool to see BF sink their teeth into.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 21:24:52 GMT
He was awful on telly. A horrible character. I would never, ever even remotely agree with that, personally. In fact as well as being perhaps my favourite audio Doctor, he's always been one of my favourite TV Doctors as well, right from the get go. I found him such a breath of fresh air after the low key Davison, and a welcome return to a more alien and slightly detached Doctor. To me he's like the Timothy Dalton Bond, more a victim of circumstance and production woes, and maybe just not what the majority of the audience were expecting or ready for at the time, but performance wise I think he's top notch. And to this day I still think the thing that really did him in was his début story being at the end of Davison's final season, particularly given how little budget they had left over for his first story, and where they decided to start with as far as the character goes, and where and how they left him at that story. And then they left the audience with only that rough impression of an unstable Doctor for months, right at a time when all sorts of other issues around the show were swirling into a perfect storm on the horizon. I honestly think that if (a hopefully better version of) Twin Dilemma had kicked off a season of Sixth Doctor stories instead, and over the coming weeks people would have seen a Sixth Doctor who wasn't what he might have first appeared (rather than having that idea burnt into their minds while they are waiting months and months for the show to return), then the pervading image of the Sixth Doctor from TV wouldn't be anywhere near as poor as it is today. But you can't change history, I guess. Not one line.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 21:38:46 GMT
I'm guessing Baker was so hurt by the reception of his Doctor on TV he pushed BF to bin the character and essentially reboot it, which in fairness has obviously been successful, but I can't help but wonder if it would have been more interesting to do things more gradually. Yeah, I actually do think this has a lot to do with it, as well. And though I personally do wish he and Big Finish would be a little braver in this regard now that Colin is so well established and beloved on audio, I honestly can't blame him if he's still a bit gun-shy in that regard. Especially given how nobody has had rougher treatment in the role than he suffered, both then and in the years since leaving it. It says a lot about the man that he continued to feel and show such a fondness for the role and show and its fans given how often he was on the receiving end of some rather unpleasant stuff. I hope never to see another Doctor (including the upcoming Jodie Whittaker) ever have to endure such poor treatment and scapegoating by the BBC, or such vitriol from certain sections of the fandom and the public alike.
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Post by number13 on Aug 13, 2017 22:57:12 GMT
'Quicksilver' is a recent, brilliant story which I think shows the mellow and (ahem!) less mellow sides of the Sixth Doctor off perfectly. The early scenes with Constance show the Doctor’s sympathetic side, but he’s a good deal less sympathetic when Kinvar turns up uninvited from another world and drags the Doctor into his problems. And the ending is splendidly grandiose and I don't think any other Doctor (except maybe the Third) could have carried it off quite so well. ‘O… M… G…’ says Flip, with some justification, in the middle of a brilliant setpiece which reminds us that, although he has mellowed these days, if you want a Time Lord to put his personality about a bit and firmly take charge of a crisis, you send for the Sixth Doctor! And to conclusively prove he can still have a foul temper , I'd highly recommend ‘Trial of the Valeyard’. Colin Baker recaptures his Doctor’s television persona perfectly, full of bombast, brilliance and belligerence. The opening 8 minute track is a splendid near-monologue of humorous ranting, while Madam Inquisitor tries to get a word in edgeways! (And it is a wonderful three-handed character piece, essential listening for all long-time fans of Old Sixie!)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 0:25:59 GMT
It's an interesting notion Shallcatop raises, that the portrayal in many of his stories is so much more genial and friendly than his TV ones that he's almost playing an Unbound Sixth Doctor. I've zero problems with it for one main reason - we didn't see an "end" to his TV stories. He could easily have mellowed out that much by the time he got to the end of his life. Playing devil's advocate though, Colin has always spoken of his plan for his Doctor being like an onion, with layers revealing different depths. I'm not sure that's really been achieved with the audios - he tends to be either very cuddly "ol' Sixie" or an intentional abrasive Season 22 take with little action in between. So rather than layers and layers....it's more a binary thing. I mean, in the Classic Docs, New Monsters 2 boxset he was buying ice-cream for a gang of kiddies. I can't imagine that being something we'd have seen in 1985!
I think ultimately if he'd been as spikey as his 80s stories there'd be much less room for variety in the stories and I prefer the audio version vastly so I'll not complain at all despite thinking it's an interesting topic. I'm on record as saying The Holy Terror and Doctor Who & The Pirates are the two best Who stories ever (before The Doctor Falls!) and he's far from his telly persona in those but he is wonderful and uniquely Colin nonetheless.
The best Doctor Who prose I've read is How To Teach Yourself Ballroom Dancing from Short Trips: The Muses and that's not a very accurate to TV Sixie either.....but again it's just so good and unlike the other Doctors that I'm not too fussed. I love the DWM strips of Colin's era more than ANY other and the character wasn't very abrasive there either and those were contemporary to the show. I suppose as spin-off hounds we have different perspectives from "just" TV fans but when I think of The Sixth Doctor it tends to be a slightly kind but grumpy type, usually with Evelyn by his side. That's "my" Sixth Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 0:34:30 GMT
It's an interesting notion Shallcatop raises, that the portrayal in many of his stories is so much more genial and friendly than his TV ones that he's almost playing an Unbound Sixth Doctor. I've zero problems with it for one main reason - we didn't see an "end" to his TV stories. He could easily have mellowed out that much by the time he got to the end of his life. Playing devil's advocate though, Colin has always spoken of his plan for his Doctor being like an onion, with layers revealing different depths. I'm not sure that's really been achieved with the audios - he tends to be either very cuddly "ol' Sixie" or an intentional abrasive Season 22 take with little action in between. So rather than layers and layers....it's more a binary thing. I mean, in the Classic Docs, New Monsters 2 boxset he was buying ice-cream for a gang of kiddies. I can't imagine that being something we'd have seen in 1985! I think ultimately if he'd been as spikey as his 80s stories there'd be much less room for variety in the stories and I prefer the audio version vastly so I'll not complain at all despite thinking it's an interesting topic. I'm on record as saying The Holy Terror and Doctor Who & The Pirates are the two best Who stories ever (before The Doctor Falls!) and he's far from his telly persona in those but he is wonderful and uniquely Colin nonetheless. The best Doctor Who prose I've read is How To Teach Yourself Ballroom Dancing from Short Trips: The Muses and that's not a very accurate to TV Sixie either.....but again it's just so good and unlike the other Doctors that I'm not too fussed. I love the DWM strips of Colin's era more than ANY other and the character wasn't very abrasive there either and those were contemporary to the show. I suppose as spin-off hounds we have different perspectives from "just" TV fans but when I think of The Sixth Doctor it tends to be a slightly kind but grumpy type, usually with Evelyn by his side. That's "my" Sixth Doctor. Yeah, even having watched all the television stories while they were re-airing in the early 2000s, I still think that period between The Marian Conspiracy and Arrangements for War is the quintessential Sixth Doctor period, in the same way that the Four/Sarah Jane stories are. That's not to say that any other period is lesser than it (the Charley stories gives Evelyn an earnest run for her chocolate cake), but it is what comes to mind when I think of the Sixth Doctor.
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