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Post by theotherjosh on Aug 22, 2017 13:44:54 GMT
Hey! Neil Gaiman shout-out! Susan's certainly a problematic character in certain respects. Part of it is that she was there from the beginning, when they were making up the mythos of Doctor Who as they went along before they codified many of the tropes that would come to define the show. Consequently, she doesn't always mesh with the lore of later stories.
1.) What was her relationship to the Doctor? Biological granddaughter or something else, with Grandfather simply being a honorific?
2.) Did she really name the TARDIS?
3.) Did she really never tell David Campbell that she was an alien? I recall one story where she concealed her apparent youth with makeup, when it became clear that she wasn't aging at the same rate. That's a stretch, but she managed to hide the fact that she has two hearts?
4.) The new series tends to use "Time Lord" to mean anyone who hails from Gallifrey, but my takeaway from Classic Who was that it was rank acquired when one completed the Academy. Was Susan a Time Lady?
5.) How old was she? Older than Barbara and Ian put together, or the teenager she appeared to be? There is evidence to support either point of view.
My preferred answers
1.) Something else. New Who seems to lean pretty definitively towards biological descendent, but I think I prefer the idea that she was a descendent of the Other and recognized some kinship with the Doctor.
2.) Paul Cornell's Discontinuity Guide suggests that she was the first to coin the phrase and it caught on, but I tend to lean towards the explanation in the audio play The Beginning, where Susan realizes, "Hey! You can spell TARDIS out of the initials!" and the Doctor essentially responds, "Um. Obviously. Did you really think you're the first one to realize that?", which goes over Susan's head completely. I also like an explanation from the first Time Shadows anthology, where Susan explains that there are no analogous words in English for the words that describe the TARDIS, so she named the TARDIS by coming up with a best approximation translation. I think that one's particularly elegant, because it answers the question of why a Gallifreyan vessel is named with an acronym that happens to make sense in English.
3.) This seems pretty firmly established, but the logistical problems of maintaining a masquerade like this for someone with whom she was so intimate are enormous.
4.) I don't see anything to suggest that she graduated from the Time Lord Academy.
5.) This is a tricky one. No hard evidence either way. I'd lean towards older, but there is the same amount of evidence for younger.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 22, 2017 15:29:23 GMT
For 1, I lean towards simply biological granddaughter, maybe the Doctor tampered with the Looms to include his genetics somehow, who knows? This is mainly due to my disliking of The Other implications. I'm not keen on the idea of the Doctor being special by virtue of happening to be a reincarnated ancient Time Lord as opposed to simply by being him.
2 was indirectly addressed in The Pilot when Bill pointed out the acronym TARDIS only works in English. So presumably in Gallifreyan it's not called TARDIS at all, Susan presumably heard the nearest English translation of the Gallifreyan name as Time And Relative Dimension In Space and thus came up with the acronym from that.
3, She probably addressed it off-screen and simply used the make-up to blend in, An Earthly Child does establish there was some very prevalent anti-alien sentiment after the Dalek invasion so presumably she didn't want to be too public about it.
4. She might be a Time Lady, but she never states on screen she is and I don't think she does in expanded media either. Though her knowledge of the TARDIS would suggest she did study at least a bit, given her youth perhaps they ran away before she graduated?
5. She might be older than Ian and Barbara, given Gallifreyan lifespans she probably was. The Doctor does refer to himself as 'just a kid' aged about 90 in The Stolen Earth.
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Post by Bazoolium on Aug 22, 2017 17:58:07 GMT
I like to think she is his actual Granddaughter and that something involving her parents was the reason the Doctor left Gallifrey. Maybe their deaths could have been prevented by the Time Lord's, but they refused to intervine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:22:12 GMT
1. I'm a big fan of the Other idea, but that doesn't preclude a biological connection (quite the opposite in fact); Cold Fusion posits that he/the Other was present when she was born. I'd say "grandfather" was both true in a practical and metaphorical sense. Biodata goes far deeper than blood ever really can. Blood can't rend a person's timestream apart like wet paper when it's tampered with.
2. I don't see why not. The term googol (10100) only exists because of a mathematician's nine-year-old nephew. Maybe the Other got the idea from a half-century old Susan who thought it sounded rather ingenious.
3. I think it would've been a particularly difficult conversation to have with all the prejudice that was floating around, but I think she would've told David. If anything abnormal manifested in Alex, she'd have to. The two of them would likely have kept it a secret from the other humans though, Susan has intimate knowledge of what a witch hunt feels like.
4. Hmm... Tricky to say. She lacks a TARDIS and there's no mention of her ever possessing one herself, but she seems to know the mechanics of the Ship more than her grandfather does sometimes. There's the implication that Time Lords have primary and secondary institutes in the form of first Chapter Academies (Prydon Academy, Patrex Academy and so forth) before they're taken to the Academy of Time where they undergo final induction to become part of that elite. She might have been halfway through her education when the Great Schism happened.
5. I reckon both. In human terms, she'd probably be just beyond her first century. In Gallifreyan, still a teenager and all that entails. Her more vulnerable behaviour strikes me as less to do with her age and more with her latent telepathic nature. Rather like being born with misophonia.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:32:05 GMT
Is all this Other, Loom nonsense canon? Never heard it mentioned on telly.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:34:38 GMT
Is all this Other, Loom nonsense canon? Never heard it mentioned on telly. It's been officially licensed by the BBC countless of times, so yes it is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:35:22 GMT
Is all this Other, Loom nonsense canon? Never heard it mentioned on telly. It's been officially licensed by the BBC countless of times, so yes it is. Oh dear.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:38:50 GMT
It's been officially licensed by the BBC countless of times, so yes it is. Oh dear. Why?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Aug 22, 2017 22:45:35 GMT
I don't know the answer to any of Josh's questions but I did have a rush of excitement at the start of this past series when we show the photo of Susan on The Doctor's desk. I thought/hoped we would be getting a Susan story at some point. I don't look at Susan as being a problem but rather a area of the show's history I would like to see explored.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 22, 2017 22:49:42 GMT
Is all this Other, Loom nonsense canon? Never heard it mentioned on telly. Depends on your views on Doctor Who canon. Officially there is no canon.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:53:39 GMT
Is all this Other, Loom nonsense canon? Never heard it mentioned on telly. Depends on your views on Doctor Who canon. Officially there is no canon. Absolutely. One man's law of the cosmos, is another man's crime against good taste.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Aug 22, 2017 23:03:16 GMT
Easy for me since I look at the TV & Big Finish adventures as canon. Everything else isn't.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Aug 22, 2017 23:19:43 GMT
Ha. Just had a thought. What is the photo of Susan was foreshadowing and The Doctor is actually a regenerated Susan! Would all the brains melt? I'm not seriously suggesting The new Doctor is Susan but man, what if that were the case? I do know I'd love to hear Bradley's 1st Doctor ask the 12th Doctor if he ever checked in on his/their granddaughter.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 23:34:29 GMT
Easy for me since I look at the TV & Big Finish adventures as canon. Everything else isn't. I had a similar philosophy until I read The Iron Legion. I've discovered that canon-welding is actually pretty simple, so long as you approach it not as "this or that", but "this and that" instead. There are a few irreconcilable accounts, sure, but nothing that can't be solved with a bit of abstract invention. I'm someone who liked to believe that a lot of the Unbound stories temporarily existed as canon because of interference from the Time War. Schroedinger's Cat. The stories existed in flux until the waveforms collapsed and time became what we saw in NuWho.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2017 0:28:27 GMT
I don't know the answer to any of Josh's questions but I did have a rush of excitement at the start of this past series when we show the photo of Susan on The Doctor's desk. I thought/hoped we would be getting a Susan story at some point. I don't look at Susan as being a problem but rather a area of the show's history I would like to see explored.
I can't help but wonder if The Doctor being reunited with Susan is the big dramatic moment Bradley and Calpadi was teasing that had them nearly blubbering. ("Grandfather, always so cross and serious.")
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Aug 23, 2017 1:04:23 GMT
I don't know the answer to any of Josh's questions but I did have a rush of excitement at the start of this past series when we show the photo of Susan on The Doctor's desk. I thought/hoped we would be getting a Susan story at some point. I don't look at Susan as being a problem but rather a area of the show's history I would like to see explored.
I can't help but wonder if The Doctor being reunited with Susan is the big dramatic moment Bradley and Calpadi was teasing that had them nearly blubbering. ("Grandfather, always so cross and serious.")
That thought had crossed my mind as well.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Aug 23, 2017 7:18:30 GMT
1) Biological granddaughter, daughter of the President, descendent of Rassilon, known also as Arkytior and Larn. Or perhaps this is an invented history, born as history healed around her when she was torn from the dawn of Gallifrey and into it's present history by a white-haired man who was her grandfather and wasn't... 2) She made up the name, the TARDIS liked it, and it spread through the Matrix like infectious laughter, 'til all of Gallifrey was using it.• 3) She told David part of it, though he never grasped the whole of what she was – then again, what mortal could? She was already older than he would ever be, deeper than he could imagine. She played the part of human girl very well, with all that screaming and twisted ankles, a child-goddess playing at being small and frail, and she carried the act on until it was no longer an act and she really was like one of them, caring as they did, living as they did. But one day, the people around her would die and she would still remain, her façade slipping inch-by-inch until she commanded the full glory of a Gallifreyan once more. 4) "Susan" was daughter to a President, heir to an ancient bloodline, telepathic to an extent which terrified her elders, yet she never graduated the academy – the events that led to her and her Grandfather fleeing the Capital into exile in the wilds of history saw to that. But she wonders sometimes if she can regenerate after all, if all that strangeness might have unlocked the potential within her. There's only one way to find out... and sometimes she finds herself thinking about jumping in front of trains, just to know. 5) Older than Barbara and Ian put together, but less than a hundred-and-fifty. To humans, she's ancient. To the Time Lords, she's barely more than a toddler taking her first steps. What will she be when she grows up?
•OOU, I'd have preferred TARDIS to be just the Doctor's Ship and the others to be Travel Capsules or Ships, but that ship has sailed long ago.
This list is a mix of show material, novels, short stories, guidebooks (the first sentence is more-or-less stolen from that new Time Lord guidebook.), Faction Paradox (mainly the second answer... or at least, I think that's where I got it from. I can't tell anymore. My history keeps getting rewritten), and my own mad ravings. Mostly that last one, to be honest.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Aug 23, 2017 9:42:35 GMT
2 was indirectly addressed in The Pilot when Bill pointed out the acronym TARDIS only works in English. So presumably in Gallifreyan it's not called TARDIS at all, Susan presumably heard the nearest English translation of the Gallifreyan name as Time And Relative Dimension In Space and thus came up with the acronym from that. That made me laugh and then invent a headcanon explanation that you can get an acronym for whatever Time And Relative Dimension(s) In Space in any language and the translation circuits do the rest.
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Post by valeyard on Aug 23, 2017 18:05:25 GMT
Am I the only one that has no problem with Susan?
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Post by jasonward on Aug 23, 2017 18:31:01 GMT
Is all this Other, Loom nonsense canon? Never heard it mentioned on telly. Why the need to be disparaging about it? It's as canon as you want it to be, for you. Some say, yes, some say no, some say maybe. Who is to say who is definitely correct?
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