Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 16:24:59 GMT
Perhaps they should rename the story The Lovecraft Conspiracy?
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Jul 29, 2020 16:28:45 GMT
Just to play devil’s advocate - And bear in mind I don’t know why Lovecraft was delayed - the obvious answer is not ‘mishap’ but ‘illness’. Where it’s ultimately a private matter. And yet you keep stepping into this. Any particular reason why I shouldn’t? I’m largely trying to make the point that everyone’s saying ‘it’s a racism thing’ when, from my perspective (which is informed by knowing a little of the production process), there are multiple other possibilities. I might not know the specific reason in this specific case, but I do have a more educated perspective. Which hopefully makes any contribution worthwhile.
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Post by elkawho on Jul 29, 2020 16:33:58 GMT
And the thing I keep going back to was that it was previewed on the podcast with a 15 minute tease with Nick saying it was coming out the following week. Granted Nick sometimes gets those release dates wrong, he got this month’s MR release date wrong as well, but the point stands everything was moving forward as it normally does. The only thing different was the political movement going on around the world. Look I don’t think this is some conspiracy. I don’t think BF have been cowards about this. The idea that they were about to release an audio which features a writer who held some pretty contemptible views amid a global anti-racism movement giving BF cause to think it may be better to wait doesn’t speak badly of them. The idea that they may have wanted to tweak the serial somehow adding some context to Lovecraft to give them some cover also isn’t the worst idea in the world. The problem is the way they have handled it. Could there have been some technical, production issue that cropped up days before release? Sure all things are possible but I just don’t know that I buy it. It seems pretty clear that most people around here don’t buy it either. Excellent summary of how most of us see it and hard to argue with.
The podcast preview is the clincher for me - clearly all the production work was either done or very very very nearly all done at that point. And if it wasn't all finished at the time of the podcast then I would be surprised that BF run it that close to the wire. And if the person working on whatever was still left to do did then suffer some kind of mishap, could no one else have stepped in to finish it off? & why not just say so publicly?
And if the problem was the CD pressing, why would that hold up the DL release when the warehouse is behind anyway?
Most people, myself included, have decided the delay was more than likely - for want of a better term - politically motivated and the only remaining point of doubt in most people's minds is whether the delay was BF's own decision or a diktat from the BBC.
I would have agreed with you a week ago, but it looks like Time Apart may be having the same issue, whatever it is. With 2 days left in the month I could be wrong, but the fact that they have waited so long to release another MR story is troubling.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Jul 29, 2020 16:34:40 GMT
“And if the person working on whatever was still left to do did then suffer some kind of mishap, could no one else have stepped in to finish it off? & why not just say so publicly?” Just to play devil’s advocate - And bear in mind I don’t know why Lovecraft was delayed - the obvious answer is not ‘mishap’ but ‘illness’. Where it’s ultimately a private matter. That's fair enough, but even in that scenario they could still have said something like "one of the team working on it" is "unable to complete their contribution in time for the scheduled release date", i.e. no names mentioned, no specific person or role identified and no health details disclosed etc.
And keep in mind people were speculating online that it would be delayed for political reasons for a few days in the run up to the announcement of the delay - definitely on this forum and I'm sure elsewhere. BF generally seem to have a fair idea of what folks are saying online about them so they likely knew what was in folks' minds and yet they said nothing to dispel the speculation, which they could have done quite easily without giving too much away had they wished to.
Surely even you have to admit it is a pretty huge coincidence that these unexplained production delays just happened to occur at the very last minute on a release that dealt with the theme of racism at a point in time where racism had become a very hot potato? Coincidences do happen of course, and this may indeed be one of them. But surely you can see why folks would be just a teeny bit sceptical? You've said above you don't know the reason and I accept that, but has it not crossed your mind at all to wonder if production delays might be a euphemism for some other reason?
EDIT - and although this thread may seem at times a bit argumentative, it is after all only a silly Dr Who story we are talking about. There are more important things in life. If someone at BF genuinely was/is ill or has suffered any other kind of mishap, then I'm sure we all wish them well and don't begrudge a delay in the release of the Lovecraft Invasion
Answering a couple of details there (and not going to trim the quote as that seems not to work). “That's fair enough, but even in that scenario they could still have said something like "one of the team working on it" is "unable to complete their contribution in time for the scheduled release date", i.e. no names mentioned, no specific person or role identified and no health details disclosed etc.” I don’t honestly see why there’d be any need to be that specific. Apart from to give some clues about a personal matter. “You've said above you don't know the reason and I accept that, but has it not crossed your mind at all to wonder if production delays might be a euphemism for some other reason?” Of course it has. Sometimes discretion is used, and in every case I’m aware of it happening, I think that’s been absolutely the right thing. I suppose what I’m getting at is this: why does it matter? I appreciate that people have paid for a product that has been delayed, but people will get a copy and like I say, it’s not the first time and it won’t be the last. Is it just hunger for gossip?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 16:34:45 GMT
As do the folks in this thread who keep dreaming up sinister conspiracies and imagining that they're plausible. The worst I've read is some un-necessary accusations from one poster, known to be rather OTT in his rhetoric, that BF are being dishonest. I don't see anything approaching "sinister conspiracies" being brought into the discourse. Dismissing what on the whole are some well written and reasoned posts as to why people are feeling curious as to why the delay happened is not fair. As to "imagining they're plausible"...I haven't seen any outlandish theories from anyone. There's obviously various suggestions - most popularly BLM impacting the release and the BBC stepping in - but none strike me as being particularly tin-foil conspiratorial. They're plausible, even if they are indeed ultimately wrong.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Jul 29, 2020 16:39:00 GMT
As do the folks in this thread who keep dreaming up sinister conspiracies and imagining that they're plausible. The worst I've read is some un-necessary accusations from one poster, known to be rather OTT in his rhetoric, that BF are being dishonest. I don't see anything approaching "sinister conspiracies" being brought into the discourse. Dismissing what on the whole are some well written and reasoned posts as to why people are feeling curious as to why the delay happened is not fair. As to "imagining they're plausible"...I haven't seen any outlandish theories from anyone. There's obviously various suggestions - most popularly BLM impacting the release and the BBC stepping in - but none strike me as being particularly tin-foil conspiratorial. They're plausible, even if they are indeed ultimately wrong. Yes, I think the speculation is all fair - bar weird accusations of ‘cowardice’ based on no information. As I say, the point I’m largely making is everyone’s seemingly decided they know the reason for the delay (and in some cases made judgements based on that speculation) when they don’t know the nuts and bolts. Which strikes me as a little unfair.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Jul 29, 2020 16:48:37 GMT
Look, I’m going to try and step out of this - if people want to speculate, dive in.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
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Post by ljwilson on Jul 29, 2020 16:52:50 GMT
Look, I’m going to try and step out of this - if people want to speculate, dive in. A good debate anyway John. I dont give two hoots why it has been delayed, and hope it comes out 'as was'(not that we would be able to tell either way!)
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 29, 2020 16:54:42 GMT
That's fair enough, but even in that scenario they could still have said something like "one of the team working on it" is "unable to complete their contribution in time for the scheduled release date", i.e. no names mentioned, no specific person or role identified and no health details disclosed etc.
And keep in mind people were speculating online that it would be delayed for political reasons for a few days in the run up to the announcement of the delay - definitely on this forum and I'm sure elsewhere. BF generally seem to have a fair idea of what folks are saying online about them so they likely knew what was in folks' minds and yet they said nothing to dispel the speculation, which they could have done quite easily without giving too much away had they wished to.
Surely even you have to admit it is a pretty huge coincidence that these unexplained production delays just happened to occur at the very last minute on a release that dealt with the theme of racism at a point in time where racism had become a very hot potato? Coincidences do happen of course, and this may indeed be one of them. But surely you can see why folks would be just a teeny bit sceptical? You've said above you don't know the reason and I accept that, but has it not crossed your mind at all to wonder if production delays might be a euphemism for some other reason?
EDIT - and although this thread may seem at times a bit argumentative, it is after all only a silly Dr Who story we are talking about. There are more important things in life. If someone at BF genuinely was/is ill or has suffered any other kind of mishap, then I'm sure we all wish them well and don't begrudge a delay in the release of the Lovecraft Invasion
Answering a couple of details there (and not going to trim the quote as that seems not to work). “That's fair enough, but even in that scenario they could still have said something like "one of the team working on it" is "unable to complete their contribution in time for the scheduled release date", i.e. no names mentioned, no specific person or role identified and no health details disclosed etc.” I don’t honestly see why there’d be any need to be that specific. Apart from to give some clues about a personal matter. “You've said above you don't know the reason and I accept that, but has it not crossed your mind at all to wonder if production delays might be a euphemism for some other reason?” Of course it has. Sometimes discretion is used, and in every case I’m aware of it happening, I think that’s been absolutely the right thing. I suppose what I’m getting at is this: why does it matter? I appreciate that people have paid for a product that has been delayed, but people will get a copy and like I say, it’s not the first time and it won’t be the last. Is it just hunger for gossip? You're quite right - it ultimately doesn't really matter much.
I think for most people involved in this discussion it was just a bit of harmless speculation along the lines of "I wonder if … " and given all the circumstances and the apparent level of coincidence I think it is a perfectly natural thing to speculate about. Those on one side of the argument who have been rubbishing BF and name-calling and those on the other side who have been rubbishing what would otherwise be harmless and legitimate speculation have probably prolonged the discussion more than it merited, but it's not worth falling out with anyone over.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 29, 2020 16:55:31 GMT
The worst I've read is some un-necessary accusations from one poster, known to be rather OTT in his rhetoric, that BF are being dishonest. I don't see anything approaching "sinister conspiracies" being brought into the discourse. Dismissing what on the whole are some well written and reasoned posts as to why people are feeling curious as to why the delay happened is not fair. As to "imagining they're plausible"...I haven't seen any outlandish theories from anyone. There's obviously various suggestions - most popularly BLM impacting the release and the BBC stepping in - but none strike me as being particularly tin-foil conspiratorial. They're plausible, even if they are indeed ultimately wrong. Yes, I think the speculation is all fair - bar weird accusations of ‘cowardice’ based on no information. As I say, the point I’m largely making is everyone’s seemingly decided they know the reason for the delay (and in some cases made judgements based on that speculation) when they don’t know the nuts and bolts. Which strikes me as a little unfair. Which is interesting because I don't really see people doing anything other than speculating. And outside of Mr. Cowardice, I don't see anyone being unfair. I mean we did pay for something and that thing was due to have been released almost two months ago, so as the consumer, we have a say when he don't receive what we paid for. John, I understand you are not Big Finish management. I understand you are a free lancer but I also understand that you are a writer, script editor & performer who, around these parts, is closely associated with Big Finish. So when you jump in and comment on things like this pretty much every one who reads what you have to say does so with the belief that you have access to behind-the-scenes knowledge that we don't. So to see you jumping in & out of this thread essentially wagging your finger at people and then reading you saying you don't know why it was delayed, well, that is more than a little grating & condescending. Anyway, I hope we get it soon. A) because I really want to listen to it and B) so we as a message board can move on to our next outrage.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Jul 29, 2020 17:02:05 GMT
Yes, I think the speculation is all fair - bar weird accusations of ‘cowardice’ based on no information. As I say, the point I’m largely making is everyone’s seemingly decided they know the reason for the delay (and in some cases made judgements based on that speculation) when they don’t know the nuts and bolts. Which strikes me as a little unfair. Which is interesting because I don't really see people doing anything other than speculating. And outside of Mr. Cowardice, I don't see anyone being unfair. I mean we did pay for something and that thing was due to have been released almost two months ago, so as the consumer, we have a say when he don't receive what we paid for. John, I understand you are not Big Finish management. I understand you are a free lancer but I also understand that you are a writer, script editor & performer who, around these parts, is closely associated with Big Finish. So when you jump in and comment on things like this pretty much every one who reads what you have to say does so with the belief that you have access to behind-the-scenes knowledge that we don't. So to see you jumping in & out of this thread essentially wagging your finger at people and then reading you saying you don't know why it was delayed, well, that is more than a little grating & condescending. Anyway, I hope we get it soon. A) because I really want to listen to it and B) so we as a message board can move on to our next outrage.
Yeah, it probably spiralled out of control a bit. Apologies if my posts came over as condescending. I do have, as you put it, ‘behind the scenes knowledge that you don’t’ which means that I can see flaws in the speculation and factual errors that aren’t necessarily immediately apparent. So the intent is largely to inform, rather than wag a finger, but intent doesn’t always come across. (Technical point - the official release date of a story is always the last day of the month - so Lovecraft isn’t quite a month late yet, rather than two).
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 29, 2020 17:08:18 GMT
(Technical point - the official release date of a story is always the last day of the month - so Lovecraft isn’t quite a month late yet, rather than two). You do have me on the technical.
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 29, 2020 18:02:33 GMT
Yes, I think the speculation is all fair - bar weird accusations of ‘cowardice’ based on no information. As I say, the point I’m largely making is everyone’s seemingly decided they know the reason for the delay (and in some cases made judgements based on that speculation) when they don’t know the nuts and bolts. Which strikes me as a little unfair. Which is interesting because I don't really see people doing anything other than speculating. And outside of Mr. Cowardice, I don't see anyone being unfair. I mean we did pay for something and that thing was due to have been released almost two months ago, so as the consumer, we have a say when he don't receive what we paid for. John, I understand you are not Big Finish management. I understand you are a free lancer but I also understand that you are a writer, script editor & performer who, around these parts, is closely associated with Big Finish. So when you jump in and comment on things like this pretty much every one who reads what you have to say does so with the belief that you have access to behind-the-scenes knowledge that we don't. So to see you jumping in & out of this thread essentially wagging your finger at people and then reading you saying you don't know why it was delayed, well, that is more than a little grating & condescending. Anyway, I hope we get it soon. A) because I really want to listen to it and B) so we as a message board can move on to our next outrage.
I think that’s a very fair post and close to my view. Indeed, I think your points are evidence of what has happened here. I don’t tend to put much in the “like” function of this forum, and I don’t actively use it, but it’s clear that people have taken John Dorney’s words as gospel here and “liked” the post, when frankly they’ve been politician-esque responses based on no knowledge of this particular scenario. It does come across as condescending and it’s a shame that who the poster is controls the view rather than what is said. The same goes for speculative posts seemingly coming under the banner of being a big fuss or a conspiracy, when it’s not the case at all. That seems to be a reflection of someone not being interested in the discussion, yet still wanting to contribute. It’s come across as being less a discussion and more a X versus The World. It’s not personal and it’s not intended, I get that, but it’s still a little disheartening. But water under the bridge and all that and we could very well have two new releases in the next couple of days!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 18:22:11 GMT
Without contributing to the discussion of the wheres and whys concerning the delay, it is possible to look positively onto the situation. Like the Blu-Ray Collection delays, all those who have pre-ordered still have both Lovecraft and this months Time Apart to look forward to. They could potentially be released together or in close succession. And to get the schedule back on track there may be less delay before the following months release(s). I would imagine BF would be looking to catch up with the release schedule, whatever the cause may be. The time to inform us of the reasons would perhaps be best left until after things have passed. And its not as if anything has been cancelled nor shelved.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Jul 29, 2020 18:22:57 GMT
Which is interesting because I don't really see people doing anything other than speculating. And outside of Mr. Cowardice, I don't see anyone being unfair. I mean we did pay for something and that thing was due to have been released almost two months ago, so as the consumer, we have a say when he don't receive what we paid for. John, I understand you are not Big Finish management. I understand you are a free lancer but I also understand that you are a writer, script editor & performer who, around these parts, is closely associated with Big Finish. So when you jump in and comment on things like this pretty much every one who reads what you have to say does so with the belief that you have access to behind-the-scenes knowledge that we don't. So to see you jumping in & out of this thread essentially wagging your finger at people and then reading you saying you don't know why it was delayed, well, that is more than a little grating & condescending. Anyway, I hope we get it soon. A) because I really want to listen to it and B) so we as a message board can move on to our next outrage.
I think that’s a very fair post and close to my view. Indeed, I think your points are evidence of what has happened here. I don’t tend to put much in the “like” function of this forum, and I don’t actively use it, but it’s clear that people have taken John Dorney’s words as gospel here and “liked” the post, when frankly they’ve been politician-esque responses based on no knowledge of this particular scenario. It does come across as condescending and it’s a shame that who the poster is controls the view rather than what is said. The same goes for speculative posts seemingly coming under the banner of being a big fuss or a conspiracy, when it’s not the case at all. That seems to be a reflection of someone not being interested in the discussion, yet still wanting to contribute. It’s come across as being less a discussion and more a X versus The World. It’s not personal and it’s not intended, I get that, but it’s still a little disheartening. But water under the bridge and all that and we could very well have two new releases in the next couple of days! As I say, apologies if it came over as condescending. I genuinely just thought I was supplying extra information, rather than smacking anything down. (It’s worth noting, it was all bashed off rather quickly on my phone, so I may have lost nuance). Although I wouldn’t go so far as to say I have ‘no knowledge’ of this particular scenario.
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 29, 2020 19:05:55 GMT
I think that’s a very fair post and close to my view. Indeed, I think your points are evidence of what has happened here. I don’t tend to put much in the “like” function of this forum, and I don’t actively use it, but it’s clear that people have taken John Dorney’s words as gospel here and “liked” the post, when frankly they’ve been politician-esque responses based on no knowledge of this particular scenario. It does come across as condescending and it’s a shame that who the poster is controls the view rather than what is said. The same goes for speculative posts seemingly coming under the banner of being a big fuss or a conspiracy, when it’s not the case at all. That seems to be a reflection of someone not being interested in the discussion, yet still wanting to contribute. It’s come across as being less a discussion and more a X versus The World. It’s not personal and it’s not intended, I get that, but it’s still a little disheartening. But water under the bridge and all that and we could very well have two new releases in the next couple of days! As I say, apologies if it came over as condescending. I genuinely just thought I was supplying extra information, rather than smacking anything down. (It’s worth noting, it was all bashed off rather quickly on my phone, so I may have lost nuance). Although I wouldn’t go so far as to say I have ‘no knowledge’ of this particular scenario. Hey, as I said it’s water under the bridge. I didn’t take it personally and understood your position, even if I didn’t always agree with what was said or found it relevant to this particular scenario. Apologies, I meant to say “no insider knowledge”, which you acknowledged yourself in this case.
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Post by cwm on Jul 29, 2020 19:22:07 GMT
I know this has been mentioned before, but I also don't think BF handled the announcement of the delay at all well - they didn't mention it on social media, or at all beyond adding a notice to the product page, which did give the impression they were hoping people wouldn't notice, which coupled with the last-minute nature of the delay and the vague reason behind it probably didn't help along with the factors. If they'd been more clear about the delay and transparent about the reasons - I appreciate that it may not necessarily have been possible to be more exact about the latter - they might not have added fuel to the fire.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 29, 2020 19:48:00 GMT
The issue is not the reason for the delay its the the fact the delay was announced at nearly the last possible moment, whereas usually they're announced about a month before intended release, plus it could happen with this Months release. and it could be covered with a statement like "In spite of recent events We've kept Post Production delays to the minim unfortunately the MR Range will be affected by them", not helping the situation is the fact that both releases are heavily previewed in PR material.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 21:52:50 GMT
Although I wouldn’t go so far as to say I have ‘no knowledge’ of this particular scenario. Oh, so you do know then... go on, give them a clue. We're all friends here aren't we? It's not like they are going to tell anyone.
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Post by xlozdob on Jul 30, 2020 0:20:32 GMT
Perhaps they should rename the story The Lovecraft Conspiracy? Well it was first announced as The Lovecraft Problem, wasn't it?
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