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Post by constonks on Oct 9, 2017 15:12:43 GMT
Hit or miss seems the best way to put it. There were good ideas, the characters were ok, and after the first episode the gore shock factor seemed dialled down a bit. It just didn't quite seem to all match up somehow. Well it was an interesting experiment, shame that cliffhanger will never see it's resolution. You say that but...... {Spoiler} I think they did resolve it during the Main show with the Monks. Just a bit off hand and throw away. Because they do mention all the Invasions that the Monks stopped and include the Weeping Angels in that list I thought those were all supposed to be lies, though... I think I can live with a small invasion cliffhanger, but I really wonder what happened to April after the last bit of the episode... But she and the Coal Hill crew are just another set of Cyber-Evelyns and Grant Markhams, lost forever in the midst of an unfinished story.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 9, 2017 15:39:42 GMT
It was much better than K9 & Company. Natural enough, K9 and Company only had the pilot, Class had a bit more than that. True, but even if K9 and Company had more episodes I don't think it would have been better than Class.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Oct 9, 2017 16:24:49 GMT
You say that but...... {Spoiler} I think they did resolve it during the Main show with the Monks. Just a bit off hand and throw away. Because they do mention all the Invasions that the Monks stopped and include the Weeping Angels in that list I thought those were all supposed to be lies, though... I think I can live with a small invasion cliffhanger, but I really wonder what happened to April after the last bit of the episode... But she and the Coal Hill crew are just another set of Cyber-Evelyns and Grant Markhams, lost forever in the midst of an unfinished story. Thats true, but they do say all the best lies have a sprinkling of truth to them. Its what makes them believable. But since they may never reveal properly what happened, this may be the best out they have
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 1:30:44 GMT
Natural enough, K9 and Company only had the pilot, Class had a bit more than that. True, but even if K9 and Company had more episodes I don't think it would have been better than Class. It's a bit like trying to judge Season 19 just by Four to Doomsday, there's no real way of telling what it might've looked like. The annual that came out in anticipation of the show has Sarah and K9 investigating a series of mystery cults that have materialised throughout Britain. That seems a rather restrictive brief at first, but then there are lots of different ways that cults can manifest in contemporary life. How about... An electronics manufacturing firm who have trapped the god of an opposing cult inside their central computer who is trying to break out? A cult of personality surrounding a voodoo figure who come up against what appear to be malevolent faeries in Ireland? A spy crossing the Berlin Wall is smuggled out by cultists who use him as their puppet to inveigle themselves in MI5 (where Harry Sullivan works)? Sarah Jane and K9 are sent off on a riddle to recover an artefact from Scotland before descendants of the cult that hid it away can? It's surprisingly flexible. The series would technically have been commissioned as the pilot had rather high viewing figures and the previous BBC Controller was rather fond of the idea. It was only the switch to a new Controller who wasn't keen on the concept that ultimately canned it. Had that not occurred, it's possible that it would have been running during the Fifth Doctor's departure. They might've even returned to the idea of K9 being sent by the Master to kill Sarah Jane in one of their episodes.
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Post by doomlord on Oct 11, 2017 17:56:07 GMT
True, but even if K9 and Company had more episodes I don't think it would have been better than Class. It's a bit like trying to judge Season 19 just by Four to Doomsday, there's no real way of telling what it might've looked like. The annual that came out in anticipation of the show has Sarah and K9 investigating a series of mystery cults that have materialised throughout Britain. That seems a rather restrictive brief at first, but then there are lots of different ways that cults can manifest in contemporary life. How about... An electronics manufacturing firm who have trapped the god of an opposing cult inside their central computer who is trying to break out? A cult of personality surrounding a voodoo figure who come up against what appear to be malevolent faeries in Ireland? A spy crossing the Berlin Wall is smuggled out by cultists who use him as their puppet to inveigle themselves in MI5 (where Harry Sullivan works)? Sarah Jane and K9 are sent off on a riddle to recover an artefact from Scotland before descendants of the cult that hid it away can? It's surprisingly flexible. The series would technically have been commissioned as the pilot had rather high viewing figures and the previous BBC Controller was rather fond of the idea. It was only the switch to a new Controller who wasn't keen on the concept that ultimately canned it. Had that not occurred, it's possible that it would have been running during the Fifth Doctor's departure. They might've even returned to the idea of K9 being sent by the Master to kill Sarah Jane in one of their episodes. I still have my K9 Annual from Christmas morning, 1982. I loved all that occult and sect stuff in it, as I was really getting into Hammer films because of being allowed to stay up and watch the first of the horror double-bill showings on weekends around that time, one in particular The Devil Rides Out, scary but so thrilling to watch. I doubt very much that sort of occult and sect thing would be allowed in a new K9 Annual today. Many of the illustrations from the annual have been copied from the Eagle comic static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/8/85763/5429268-1690458404-1967..jpg
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 11, 2017 19:04:18 GMT
True, but even if K9 and Company had more episodes I don't think it would have been better than Class. It's a bit like trying to judge Season 19 just by Four to Doomsday, there's no real way of telling what it might've looked like. The annual that came out in anticipation of the show has Sarah and K9 investigating a series of mystery cults that have materialised throughout Britain. That seems a rather restrictive brief at first, but then there are lots of different ways that cults can manifest in contemporary life. How about... An electronics manufacturing firm who have trapped the god of an opposing cult inside their central computer who is trying to break out? A cult of personality surrounding a voodoo figure who come up against what appear to be malevolent faeries in Ireland? A spy crossing the Berlin Wall is smuggled out by cultists who use him as their puppet to inveigle themselves in MI5 (where Harry Sullivan works)? Sarah Jane and K9 are sent off on a riddle to recover an artefact from Scotland before descendants of the cult that hid it away can? It's surprisingly flexible. The series would technically have been commissioned as the pilot had rather high viewing figures and the previous BBC Controller was rather fond of the idea. It was only the switch to a new Controller who wasn't keen on the concept that ultimately canned it. Had that not occurred, it's possible that it would have been running during the Fifth Doctor's departure. They might've even returned to the idea of K9 being sent by the Master to kill Sarah Jane in one of their episodes. The difference being that Four to Doomsday wasn't the very first episode of a new show. Episode one has to be good in its own right. Look at An Unearthly Child episode one - it's a fantastic opening to our favourite show that captures the air of mystery over who this 'Doctor' is, a question we still haven't got a proper answer to today. K9 & Company's one and only episode on the other hand is bland, with a forgettable plot about a cult that just drags on and on. Most importantly it doesn't feel like a Doctor Who spin-off, which you would naturally expect to feature aliens. The Sarah Jane Adventures: Invasion of the Bane is what the K9 & Company pilot should have been.
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Post by sherlock on Oct 11, 2017 23:20:09 GMT
It's a bit like trying to judge Season 19 just by Four to Doomsday, there's no real way of telling what it might've looked like. The annual that came out in anticipation of the show has Sarah and K9 investigating a series of mystery cults that have materialised throughout Britain. That seems a rather restrictive brief at first, but then there are lots of different ways that cults can manifest in contemporary life. How about... An electronics manufacturing firm who have trapped the god of an opposing cult inside their central computer who is trying to break out? A cult of personality surrounding a voodoo figure who come up against what appear to be malevolent faeries in Ireland? A spy crossing the Berlin Wall is smuggled out by cultists who use him as their puppet to inveigle themselves in MI5 (where Harry Sullivan works)? Sarah Jane and K9 are sent off on a riddle to recover an artefact from Scotland before descendants of the cult that hid it away can? It's surprisingly flexible. The series would technically have been commissioned as the pilot had rather high viewing figures and the previous BBC Controller was rather fond of the idea. It was only the switch to a new Controller who wasn't keen on the concept that ultimately canned it. Had that not occurred, it's possible that it would have been running during the Fifth Doctor's departure. They might've even returned to the idea of K9 being sent by the Master to kill Sarah Jane in one of their episodes. The difference being that Four to Doomsday wasn't the very first episode of a new show. Episode one has to be good in its own right. Look at An Unearthly Child episode one - it's a fantastic opening to our favourite show that captures the air of mystery over who this 'Doctor' is, a question we still haven't got a proper answer to today. Well to go back to Class, I think it's first episode was one of its biggest problems. The inclusion of the Doctor completely overshadowed the new protagonists (and was only present really to try and beef up the Who connection), the characters themselves were ok but truth be told the main impression I left episode 1 with (just me mind, can't speak for anyone else) was 'blimey that was gory!' (I don't tend to watch much in the way of horror so gore's not something I tend to come across), which perhaps isn't the best impression a first episode could leave.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 2:12:55 GMT
It's a bit like trying to judge Season 19 just by Four to Doomsday, there's no real way of telling what it might've looked like. The annual that came out in anticipation of the show has Sarah and K9 investigating a series of mystery cults that have materialised throughout Britain. That seems a rather restrictive brief at first, but then there are lots of different ways that cults can manifest in contemporary life. How about... An electronics manufacturing firm who have trapped the god of an opposing cult inside their central computer who is trying to break out? A cult of personality surrounding a voodoo figure who come up against what appear to be malevolent faeries in Ireland? A spy crossing the Berlin Wall is smuggled out by cultists who use him as their puppet to inveigle themselves in MI5 (where Harry Sullivan works)? Sarah Jane and K9 are sent off on a riddle to recover an artefact from Scotland before descendants of the cult that hid it away can? It's surprisingly flexible. The series would technically have been commissioned as the pilot had rather high viewing figures and the previous BBC Controller was rather fond of the idea. It was only the switch to a new Controller who wasn't keen on the concept that ultimately canned it. Had that not occurred, it's possible that it would have been running during the Fifth Doctor's departure. They might've even returned to the idea of K9 being sent by the Master to kill Sarah Jane in one of their episodes. I still have my K9 Annual from Christmas morning, 1982. I loved all that occult and sect stuff in it, as I was really getting into Hammer films because of being allowed to stay up and watch the first of the horror double-bill showings on weekends around that time, one in particular The Devil Rides Out, scary but so thrilling to watch. I doubt very much that sort of occult and sect thing would be allowed in a new K9 Annual today. Many of the illustrations from the annual have been copied from the Eagle comic static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/8/85763/5429268-1690458404-1967..jpgHuh, I keep forgetting that Eagle wasn't just Dan Dare, there were other strips as well... Neat. I think they might be able to sneak some occultism through even with such tight strictures nowadays. The Avengers surprised me by having an episode centred around the legitimate use of black magic. Steed's off-sider Cathy uses real-world occurrences in England as evidence for her belief that such practices were genuine, along with her time in Africa. Pretty bold subject matter for 1963, even if it wasn't meant for children. I think you might be able to get away with it as long as you have a sceptic in your story somewhere (Steed, in the case of that episode) and a demonstration that such practices have a pretty heady price. It might even be possible to slip it through due to a lack of knowledge on the part of the censors. "Teabag it?" from the LEET-speaking computer in The Song of Megaptera is not a line I'd have thought made it into an audio, but it's there. The difference being that Four to Doomsday wasn't the very first episode of a new show. Episode one has to be good in its own right. Look at An Unearthly Child episode one - it's a fantastic opening to our favourite show that captures the air of mystery over who this 'Doctor' is, a question we still haven't got a proper answer to today. K9 & Company's one and only episode on the other hand is bland, with a forgettable plot about a cult that just drags on and on. Most importantly it doesn't feel like a Doctor Who spin-off, which you would naturally expect to feature aliens. The Sarah Jane Adventures: Invasion of the Bane is what the K9 & Company pilot should have been. It is however a serial that used both Terrence Dudley and John Black and was immediately followed by Chris Bailey's Kinda and Eric Saward's The Visitation, both of which are so far removed from Four's storytelling as to seem like a completely different show (particularly when we get to Earthshock). Well, bear in mind that they did have to reshoot that pilot episode because it wasn't up to spec and the rest of the story encompassing the Tribe of Gum is -- oh, I have to be honest with myself -- a bit rubbish. Enough so that the first Dalek novelisation by David Whitaker (the script editor at the time) completely eschewed it in favour of a completely new introduction on Barnes Common. The upturn in quality when "The Dead Planet" starts is really something. If we were purely going by An Unearthly Child (the serial, not the episode), then it's a series that shows... promise... It doesn't actualise that promise until Skaro and the Daleks. It was definitely a bad pilot, Invasion of the Bane did much better in that regard, but I don't think that necessarily meant that K9 and Company was going to be a bad series. As I said, before the changeover in Controllers it was going to be a series. The viewing figures were high enough that they'd have proceeded and the original proposal (having done some digging) was going to hark back to The Avengers. Now, that could've been rather interesting.
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Post by doomlord on Oct 12, 2017 19:53:45 GMT
It's a bit like trying to judge Season 19 just by Four to Doomsday, there's no real way of telling what it might've looked like. The annual that came out in anticipation of the show has Sarah and K9 investigating a series of mystery cults that have materialised throughout Britain. That seems a rather restrictive brief at first, but then there are lots of different ways that cults can manifest in contemporary life. How about... An electronics manufacturing firm who have trapped the god of an opposing cult inside their central computer who is trying to break out? A cult of personality surrounding a voodoo figure who come up against what appear to be malevolent faeries in Ireland? A spy crossing the Berlin Wall is smuggled out by cultists who use him as their puppet to inveigle themselves in MI5 (where Harry Sullivan works)? Sarah Jane and K9 are sent off on a riddle to recover an artefact from Scotland before descendants of the cult that hid it away can? It's surprisingly flexible. The series would technically have been commissioned as the pilot had rather high viewing figures and the previous BBC Controller was rather fond of the idea. It was only the switch to a new Controller who wasn't keen on the concept that ultimately canned it. Had that not occurred, it's possible that it would have been running during the Fifth Doctor's departure. They might've even returned to the idea of K9 being sent by the Master to kill Sarah Jane in one of their episodes. The difference being that Four to Doomsday wasn't the very first episode of a new show. Episode one has to be good in its own right. Look at An Unearthly Child episode one - it's a fantastic opening to our favourite show that captures the air of mystery over who this 'Doctor' is, a question we still haven't got a proper answer to today. K9 & Company's one and only episode on the other hand is bland, with a forgettable plot about a cult that just drags on and on. Most importantly it doesn't feel like a Doctor Who spin-off, which you would naturally expect to feature aliens. The Sarah Jane Adventures: Invasion of the Bane is what the K9 & Company pilot should have been. Of course K9 & Co felt like a DW spin-off, it had K9 and Sarah in it and had gone on it to a whole series with both of them, it would have been a lot more 'spin-off' than Class ever was just because of those two main factors alone. It came out at a time when DW was trying to appeal to an older teen and student audience and so having something as real as a cult or sect was possibly a tonal choice to appeal to that audience as by now, they were used to the special and visual effects of The Empire Strikes Back, Galactica and Buck Rogers, so anything alien or spacey in competition on a BBC budget would have been laughed at from that sector, so grounding it in reality was a good choice for its first story. Besides, I've read in many interviews and archive articles that it was to be an investigation of mysteries, myths and legends, folklore series on its own merits rather than just trying to copy its parent series as that would just Doctor Who without the Doctor. Why do that when you can make something different, that in essence is what a real spin-off should be, something different. Apart from having the two main characters in it, surely you must like some elements about it?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 12, 2017 19:56:29 GMT
The difference being that Four to Doomsday wasn't the very first episode of a new show. Episode one has to be good in its own right. Look at An Unearthly Child episode one - it's a fantastic opening to our favourite show that captures the air of mystery over who this 'Doctor' is, a question we still haven't got a proper answer to today. K9 & Company's one and only episode on the other hand is bland, with a forgettable plot about a cult that just drags on and on. Most importantly it doesn't feel like a Doctor Who spin-off, which you would naturally expect to feature aliens. The Sarah Jane Adventures: Invasion of the Bane is what the K9 & Company pilot should have been. Of course K9 & Co felt like a DW spin-off, it had K9 and Sarah in it and had gone on it to a whole series with both of them, it would have been a lot more 'spin-off' than Class ever was just because of those two main factors alone. It came out at a time when DW was trying to appeal to an older teen and student audience and so having something as real as a cult or sect was possibly a tonal choice to appeal to that audience as by now, they were used to the special and visual effects of The Empire Strikes Back, Galactica and Buck Rogers, so anything alien or spacey in competition on a BBC budget would have been laughed at from that sector, so grounding it in reality was a good choice for its first story. Besides, I've read in many interviews and archive articles that it was to be an investigation of mysteries, myths and legends, folklore series on its own merits rather than just trying to copy its parent series as that would just Doctor Who without the Doctor. Why do that when you can make something different, that in essence is what a real spin-off should be, something different. Apart from having the two main characters in it, surely you must like some elements about it? Nope. It's dull and doesn't fulfill the promise of what a Sarah Jane and K9 series could be. Just because it has two characters from the main show doesn't mean it automatically feels like a Doctor Who spinoff. To me it feels more like a different show with Sarah Jane and K9 shoehorned in.
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Post by doomlord on Oct 12, 2017 20:24:18 GMT
Of course K9 & Co felt like a DW spin-off, it had K9 and Sarah in it and had gone on it to a whole series with both of them, it would have been a lot more 'spin-off' than Class ever was just because of those two main factors alone. It came out at a time when DW was trying to appeal to an older teen and student audience and so having something as real as a cult or sect was possibly a tonal choice to appeal to that audience as by now, they were used to the special and visual effects of The Empire Strikes Back, Galactica and Buck Rogers, so anything alien or spacey in competition on a BBC budget would have been laughed at from that sector, so grounding it in reality was a good choice for its first story. Besides, I've read in many interviews and archive articles that it was to be an investigation of mysteries, myths and legends, folklore series on its own merits rather than just trying to copy its parent series as that would just Doctor Who without the Doctor. Why do that when you can make something different, that in essence is what a real spin-off should be, something different. Apart from having the two main characters in it, surely you must like some elements about it? Nope. It's dull and doesn't fulfill the promise of what a Sarah Jane and K9 series could be. Just because it has two characters from the main show doesn't mean it automatically feels like a Doctor Who spinoff. To me it feels more like a different show with Sarah Jane and K9 shoehorned in. Likewise, having the Doctor at the end of episode one of Class felt shoehorned in. Besides, Sarah and K9 weren't shoehorned in as they were there from the outset, the scenario played out around them not the other way around. It felt like a different show because it was a different show, I've just told you that. If K9 had gone to a full series it may have fulfilled your expectations as Sarah and the robot dog investigated those Earthly mysteries and myths. Many DW adventures are rooted in such lore anyway.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 12, 2017 20:46:54 GMT
Nope. It's dull and doesn't fulfill the promise of what a Sarah Jane and K9 series could be. Just because it has two characters from the main show doesn't mean it automatically feels like a Doctor Who spinoff. To me it feels more like a different show with Sarah Jane and K9 shoehorned in. Likewise, having the Doctor at the end of episode one of Class felt shoehorned in. Besides, Sarah and K9 weren't shoehorned in as they were there from the outset, the scenario played out around them not the other way around. It felt like a different show because it was a different show, I've just told you that. If K9 had gone to a full series it may have fulfilled your expectations as Sarah and the robot dog investigated those Earthly mysteries and myths. Many DW adventures are rooted in such lore anyway. I agree about the Doctor in Class. That should have been kept back until at least halfway through the series. I just don't find the premise of Sarah Jane and K9 investigating mysteries and myths all that interesting. Maybe it's just me but there are three things I expect from a Doctor Who spin-off. 1: A character from the main show 2: Aliens 3: Lots of action and adventure K9 & Company - 1 Torchwood - 1, 2, 3 The Sarah Jane Adventures - 1, 2, 3 Class - 1 (technically - The Doctor and the Weeping Angels), 2, 3 Maybe a series of K9 & Company would have proved me wrong, but based on what we know I believe The Sarah Jane Adventures is K9 & Company done right.
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Post by doomlord on Oct 12, 2017 21:02:15 GMT
Yes, but as I said they were going for a different tone and not specifically aimed at children as SJA was. This was outside of children's hour and broadcast at around the usual family slot of DW, which as already mentioned was now trying to appeal to an older, student type audience which could afford to go into fictional stories based around 'real' things. Some of the all-time best DW stories have centred around Earthly events, e.g. The Aztecs
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 21:22:36 GMT
Yes, but as I said they were going for a different tone and not specifically aimed at children as SJA was. This was outside of children's hour and broadcast at around the usual family slot of DW, which as already mentioned was now trying to appeal to an older, student type audience which could afford to go into fictional stories based around 'real' things. Some of the all-time best DW stories have centred around Earthly events, e.g. The Aztecs It certainly wasn't on any kind of family slot - it was I-Player exclusive then on BBC1 broadcast it was about half 10 or 11 at night. I suppose for a family of insomniacs. Since it was 15-rated, the usual Doctor Who slot wouldn't have been an option anyway. Though I liked Class the concept wasn't inspiring, the promotion was lacking and the scheduling wasn't ideal. It was handicapped from inception really.
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Post by Whovitt on Oct 12, 2017 21:25:32 GMT
Yes, but as I said they were going for a different tone and not specifically aimed at children as SJA was. This was outside of children's hour and broadcast at around the usual family slot of DW, which as already mentioned was now trying to appeal to an older, student type audience which could afford to go into fictional stories based around 'real' things. Some of the all-time best DW stories have centred around Earthly events, e.g. The Aztecs It certainly wasn't on any kind of family slot - it was I-Player exclusive then on BBC1 broadcast it was about half 10 or 11 at night. I suppose for a family of insomniacs. Since it was 15-rated, the usual Doctor Who slot wouldn't have been an option anyway. Though I liked Class the concept wasn't inspiring, the promotion was lacking and the scheduling wasn't ideal. It was handicapped from inception really. I think he was talking about K9 & Company, not Class
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 21:39:10 GMT
It certainly wasn't on any kind of family slot - it was I-Player exclusive then on BBC1 broadcast it was about half 10 or 11 at night. I suppose for a family of insomniacs. Since it was 15-rated, the usual Doctor Who slot wouldn't have been an option anyway. Though I liked Class the concept wasn't inspiring, the promotion was lacking and the scheduling wasn't ideal. It was handicapped from inception really. I think he was talking about K9 & Company, not Class My mistake - though my points stand about Class It could have been a truly fantastic show and still DOA due to factors beyond it's control. There's still people who think it was a CBBC show when it comes up online.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 9:20:31 GMT
I think he was talking about K9 & Company, not Class My mistake - though my points stand about Class It could have been a truly fantastic show and still DOA due to factors beyond it's control. There's still people who think it was a CBBC show when it comes up online. Well, never say die. It took twenty-six years, but Sarah Jane and K9 did eventually get that full television series. I'd be very surprised if nothing comes of Class in the future, Coal Hill feels as though it has a lot more stories to tell.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 9:45:16 GMT
My mistake - though my points stand about Class It could have been a truly fantastic show and still DOA due to factors beyond it's control. There's still people who think it was a CBBC show when it comes up online. Well, never say die. It took twenty-six years, but Sarah Jane and K9 did eventually get that full television series. I'd be very surprised if nothing comes of Class in the future, Coal Hill feels as though it has a lot more stories to tell. I don't think they're comparable though - K9 and Sarah Jane were at least uber-popular at one point. It's one thing resurrecting something that was beloved, quite another doing it for something that was quite the flop from day 1.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2017 9:56:18 GMT
Well, never say die. It took twenty-six years, but Sarah Jane and K9 did eventually get that full television series. I'd be very surprised if nothing comes of Class in the future, Coal Hill feels as though it has a lot more stories to tell. I don't think they're comparable though - K9 and Sarah Jane were at least uber-popular at one point. It's one thing resurrecting something that was beloved, quite another doing it for something that was quite the flop from day 1. Oh, that's true. Then again, Big Finish have built their reputation on mending troubled properties, Class could easily fall under that banner.
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