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Post by nucleusofswarm on Sept 9, 2017 0:21:25 GMT
Both ranked as lowpoints of Season 15, as well as of the whole Williams era, but which one gets the shorter end of the stick, or CSO screen, as it were?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Sept 9, 2017 0:38:15 GMT
I prefer the ideas bubbling away in Underworld then those in Invisible Enema.
They were shooting for the moon in Underworld, trying something new.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 9, 2017 1:09:03 GMT
I disagree with "low points" but I love Underworld: it has some genuine SF ideas, tries to be literary and has aspirations of greatness. There's also an effort to give some of the guest cast real characters and depth rather than just stock motivations and personalities. It was also trying to solve its problems in a novel, "outside-the-(blue)-box" way, rather like Greatest Show did 10 years later. Invisible Enemy tries for action adventure with cod science, although if you replace "clone" with "3-D printed copy" I'd probably like it a bit more.
(I love the Williams era: between inflation, strikes, ridiculous budgets (most obvious in Season 17), incomplete scripts, the revolving script editor's door and Tom Baker throwing his weight around, I'm amazed that anything got made. But I love the thinly-veiled adaptations of or homages to other stories, Louise Jameson, Mary Tamm and Lalla Ward giving knockout performances and the sheer fun that was had by this viewer)
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 9, 2017 1:43:42 GMT
Underworld is awesome!
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Post by Hieronymus on Sept 9, 2017 3:19:42 GMT
As a child I was more captivated by The Invisible Enemy and its visuals. It left a much stronger impression on me at the time.
But as an adult, I appreciate the depths of myth and characterization in Underworld.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 5:10:29 GMT
Oof, both have certainly got their problems.
I think Underworld did better at covering its own shortcomings than The Invisible Enemy did. The idea to get around not having the money to shoot on location by filming in front of models was pretty inventive and could have been quite spectacular if scene-sync (as seen in Meglos) were around at the time. That said, there's a crushing amount of padding in that story. It takes forever to get from one scene to the next and the Oracle suffers from being an archetypal maniacal computer with delusions of godhood. Something done not too long ago with Xoanon and to greater effect with its schizophrenic social engineering. I think Underworld just might be an episode or two longer than it needs to be.
The Invisible Enemy, on the other hand, feels more... complete. It certainly plays into the Williams era theme of immorality in the Doctor coming from without rather than within (culminating in the Guardians). The production problems aside, the Nucleus makes for an interesting adversary -- if, again, two-dimensionally megalomaniacal -- and its infection of the Doctor directly makes the story a great deal more compelling than it would be otherwise. Had the direction been up to scratch, it could've been positively chilling to have the Doctor raise the gun up behind Leela and fire. There's this real sense of burgeoning danger as the virus spreads throughout the Bi-Al Foundation, it would've been interesting to see that explored in some of the minor characters. And, of course, this story introduced us to K9.
All in all, the Bristol Boys had done better previously and would do better afterward with The Armageddon Factor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 7:08:07 GMT
Both storys have issues but i enjoyed them for what they are......entertainment.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 9, 2017 10:37:09 GMT
Both lowpoints of Season 17, as well as of the Williams era, but which one gets the shorter end of the stick, or CSO screen? Season 15 actually and they're not IMO.
But I suppose the Nucleus would've been more convincing as a fly type creature and Underworld has the weaker story all in all but they are by no means terrible.
Regards
mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2017 12:43:45 GMT
Both lowpoints of Season 17, as well as of the Williams era, but which one gets the shorter end of the stick, or CSO screen? Season 15 actually and they're not IMO.
But I suppose the Nucleus would've been more convincing as a fly type creature and Underworld has the weaker story all in all but they are by no means terrible.
Regards
mark687
Doesn't help that The Invisible Enemy has to stand against Horror of Fang Rock and Underworld in the shadow of The Sun Makers. It's a bit incredible how different this season is compared to its immediate successor. The Key to Time strikes me as peak Williams, barring an unusually weak entry from Robert Holmes. It's odd to think that The Invisible Enemy was his last entry as script editor, the creative fatigue must have really gotten to him. Season 15 feels like it's trying to shuck off an ill-fitting coat, discarding old motifs and idiosyncrasies that don't quite belong anymore. It's a hodgepodge of this and that, a show trying to find a new identity in amongst all the pandemonium that was going on around it. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 19, 2017 23:30:38 GMT
I almost admire Underworld more, primarily for the technical elements and that the first episode really isn't all that bad. Invisible Enemy just feels like a whole lot of retread of both the show and then-popular sci-fi, with K9 being its only major new assest.
I doubt I'll cause controversy by saying Revenge of the Swarm was better.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Oct 20, 2017 10:51:29 GMT
It’s a real shame the raw footage from Underworld doesn’t exist for them to do a “Special Edition” for it, where the dodgy caverns etc were replaced with something a bit more believable.
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Post by mark687 on Oct 20, 2017 11:09:44 GMT
It’s a real shame the raw footage from Underworld doesn’t exist for them to do a “Special Edition” for it, where the dodgy caverns etc were replaced with something a bit more believable. Some Out takes are on the DVD unfortunately Tom's frustration with the CSO is obvious.
Regards
mark687
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