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Post by omega on Nov 18, 2017 10:09:27 GMT
Not if you're not planning a celebration, it doesn't. By virtue of what words actually mean. Eh? Past elements of an era are exactly how you do a celebration. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. |
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Post by number13 on Nov 18, 2017 10:13:11 GMT
This thread begins from a false premise: that Peter Capaldi could be overshadowed. I know not everyone is as big a Twelfth Doctor fan as I am, but he clearly has an on-screen presence which would be very, very difficult for anyone to 'overshadow'. Multi-Doctor and multi-companion regeneration story for Christmas!  My only problems with this are: 1. I wanted another two seasons with the Season 10 crew, at least. Oh well, not to be. (Until BF...  ) 2. Still a month to wait!  |
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Nov 18, 2017 10:25:37 GMT
Not if you're not planning a celebration, it doesn't. By virtue of what words actually mean. Eh? Past elements of an era are exactly how you do a celebration. But using past elements *when you are using them for a different reason* does not a celebration make. JNT and Bidmead had no interest in celebrating a show prior to their time. Look at the eshewing of past writers and directors. They were concerned about putting their stamp on it and rescuing it from the slump they perceived it to be in. They were only interested in the old companions for what would happen *after* Tom had left, not for giving him a last hurrah. |
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Post by bobod on Nov 19, 2017 0:01:41 GMT
So... just checking... we've decided the fans don't care either. Right?
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Post by bobod on Nov 20, 2017 23:33:10 GMT
To be fair to Sean, I do - in general - get his point.
People suggest a McGann TV series running alongside the current season. And I've seen people say that McGann should get the Christmas Special one year. And If I were the current Doctor Who I would make quite clear how inappropriate I found those ideas. 'THIS IS MY SHOW, TURKEY!'
And likewise were I leaving the role and they said 'BTW Tom/Davison/McGann/Chris/Tennant/Matt/Capaldi/Whoever was coming back to share your last story', I'd be pointing out it was MY big exit, and I'd like the spotlight firmly on me, please and thank you.
But this is different, it's a coda really. Peter's big exit started in the season climax, it's a recreation of the first Doctor not an actual star of the show returning, it's thematically tied to the plot and - I would expect - the focus will be slanted towards the actual lead.
So I think Sean's going too far with it, but I can understand where he's coming from.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 21, 2017 1:17:54 GMT
I just want a good episode. That is all I ever want.
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newt5996
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Post by newt5996 on Nov 21, 2017 15:59:27 GMT
Because 12, Clara and Missy are the three characters who sum up 12's era. So? Why does the regeneration story need to be a summary of his era? Heck the times a regeneration story has been a summary of a Doctor's era were The End of Time and The Time of the Doctor, both stories that aren't exactly good. Heck The End of Time is one of the weakest stories in canon in my opinion while The Time of the Doctor is meh at best. |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 21, 2017 16:00:31 GMT
If Peter Capaldi's swansong had to be Multi-Doctor, I'd have much preferred 12 and 13. I think there's far more dramatic impact in the current Doctor meeting his successor in a regeneration story rather than a predecessor.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 21, 2017 16:06:32 GMT
So? Why does the regeneration story need to be a summary of his era? Heck the times a regeneration story has been a summary of a Doctor's era were The End of Time and The Time of the Doctor, both stories that aren't exactly good. Heck The End of Time is one of the weakest stories in canon in my opinion while The Time of the Doctor is meh at best. Time of the Doctor was a case of trying to answer too many plot threads that didn't need answering, such as what was in the Doctor's room in The God Complex. Plus it also had that terrible regeneration where 11 literally sneezed into Peter Capaldi. The End of Time was amazing IMO though. You couldn't possibly ask for a better end to the David Tennant era. It had everything you would want from a conclusion - every key character returning, the emergence of the big threat that had been teased since the era began (there'd been so many references to the Time Lords by that point), the return of that Doctor's arch nemesis (Simm Master)... The regeneration is still the most heart-wrenching scene ever aired on television in my view. |
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Nov 21, 2017 17:46:27 GMT
If Peter Capaldi's swansong had to be Multi-Doctor, I'd have much preferred 12 and 13. I think there's far more dramatic impact in the current Doctor meeting his successor in a regeneration story rather than a predecessor. Now THAT would be the thing to most ensure the outgoing Doctor is overshadowed. |
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newt5996
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Post by newt5996 on Nov 21, 2017 17:48:44 GMT
Heck the times a regeneration story has been a summary of a Doctor's era were The End of Time and The Time of the Doctor, both stories that aren't exactly good. Heck The End of Time is one of the weakest stories in canon in my opinion while The Time of the Doctor is meh at best. Time of the Doctor was a case of trying to answer too many plot threads that didn't need answering, such as what was in the Doctor's room in The God Complex. Plus it also had that terrible regeneration where 11 literally sneezed into Peter Capaldi. The End of Time was amazing IMO though. You couldn't possibly ask for a better end to the David Tennant era. It had everything you would want from a conclusion - every key character returning, the emergence of the big threat that had been teased since the era began (there'd been so many references to the Time Lords by that point), the return of that Doctor's arch nemesis (Simm Master)... The regeneration is still the most heart-wrenching scene ever aired on television in my view. That is a matter of opinion, mainly I find Tennant's exit to be the worst of the worst. Simm is not playing the Master, but crazy McLightning hands, Tennant is so mopey about how he's gonna die like a petulant child, and the plot doesn't make a lick of sense with Necromancy, Rassilon not being immortal, deus ex womana, and the final half hour being a continuity fest culminating in the worst final line. The sneeze regeneration was great especially after Time of the Doctor's dumb Amy hallucination. |
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Post by bobod on Nov 21, 2017 17:56:35 GMT
'literally sneezed'.
The word "literally" literally has a meaning. Literally different to how it was used here.
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Post by newt5996 on Nov 21, 2017 17:59:44 GMT
'literally sneezed'. The word "literally" literally has a meaning. Literally different to how it was used here. But remember  |
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Post by mrperson on Nov 21, 2017 19:17:15 GMT
I don't dislike End of Time quite as much as others (or perhaps I just need to watch it again), but Simm's master was absurd and Tennant's whinefest was painful to watch, and not in a good way. The latter is why I also didn't take kindly to the way the last episode wrapped up, even if it was a tad different.
But I suppose it ultimately wasn't the "regeneration episode". Anyway, like I said, as long as it's a good one I'll be happy.
I'm a bit cynical because I usually tend not to like the way Christmas specials play out, but we'll see. This sounds quite out of the ordinary.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 19:29:45 GMT
Heck the times a regeneration story has been a summary of a Doctor's era were The End of Time and The Time of the Doctor, both stories that aren't exactly good. Heck The End of Time is one of the weakest stories in canon in my opinion while The Time of the Doctor is meh at best. Time of the Doctor was a case of trying to answer too many plot threads that didn't need answering, such as what was in the Doctor's room in The God Complex. Plus it also had that terrible regeneration where 11 literally sneezed into Peter Capaldi. The End of Time was amazing IMO though. You couldn't possibly ask for a better end to the David Tennant era. It had everything you would want from a conclusion - every key character returning, the emergence of the big threat that had been teased since the era began (there'd been so many references to the Time Lords by that point), the return of that Doctor's arch nemesis (Simm Master)... The regeneration is still the most heart-wrenching scene ever aired on television in my view. Heart-wrenching, it was cringe-inducing & embarrassing. Basically the actor & showrunner breaking the 4th wall in the most painfully horrible way. Boo hooing about leaving. Made me want to vomit. Summed up the worst excesses of the RTD era. |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 21, 2017 19:54:23 GMT
Time of the Doctor was a case of trying to answer too many plot threads that didn't need answering, such as what was in the Doctor's room in The God Complex. Plus it also had that terrible regeneration where 11 literally sneezed into Peter Capaldi. The End of Time was amazing IMO though. You couldn't possibly ask for a better end to the David Tennant era. It had everything you would want from a conclusion - every key character returning, the emergence of the big threat that had been teased since the era began (there'd been so many references to the Time Lords by that point), the return of that Doctor's arch nemesis (Simm Master)... The regeneration is still the most heart-wrenching scene ever aired on television in my view. That is a matter of opinion, mainly I find Tennant's exit to be the worst of the worst. Simm is not playing the Master, but crazy McLightning hands, Tennant is so mopey about how he's gonna die like a petulant child, and the plot doesn't make a lick of sense with Necromancy, Rassilon not being immortal, deus ex womana, and the final half hour being a continuity fest culminating in the worst final line. The sneeze regeneration was great especially after Time of the Doctor's dumb Amy hallucination. - John Simm is playing the Master. He is literally credited as such. - The Doctor had received a couple of ominous warnings by this point about his future in Planet of the Dead and The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith. The appearance of Ood Sigma at the end of The Water of Mars also made him start to question if the end was near. Anybody would be moody if they thought they were about to die Time Lord or not. The much criticised 'So much more' scene comes after he believed he had escaped his fate. 'I'm still alive'. Then Wilf spoils it by being locked in the radiation cabinet. Anybody's reaction to that crushing realisation would be how 10 reacted, Time Lord or not. Even if he regenerates rather than dies, it's the death of who he currently is. - Rassilon doesn't actually die, he gets sent back into the Time War with the Simm Master so I don't really get your immortality point here. - Deus ex womana? Eh? - Personally I thought the final half hour was great. A fitting celebration of 10's era, and I hope we get something similar in Twice Upon A Time for 12. Let's see him visit Clara, Danny, Courtney, Ashildr and Nardole (not including Bill as we already know she's in it). - Each to their own. I think 'I don't want to go' is the best final line of any Doctor. - I disagree. The sneeze regeneration was unintentionally hilarious, and a massive anti-climax to all the preceding build-up. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2017 20:02:06 GMT
That is a matter of opinion, mainly I find Tennant's exit to be the worst of the worst. Simm is not playing the Master, but crazy McLightning hands, Tennant is so mopey about how he's gonna die like a petulant child, and the plot doesn't make a lick of sense with Necromancy, Rassilon not being immortal, deus ex womana, and the final half hour being a continuity fest culminating in the worst final line. The sneeze regeneration was great especially after Time of the Doctor's dumb Amy hallucination. - John Simm is playing the Master. He is literally credited as such. Haha! Well he acts more like a terrible Marvel movie supervillain! Hahahahahahahaha |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 21, 2017 20:10:57 GMT
If Peter Capaldi's swansong had to be Multi-Doctor, I'd have much preferred 12 and 13. I think there's far more dramatic impact in the current Doctor meeting his successor in a regeneration story rather than a predecessor. Now THAT would be the thing to most ensure the outgoing Doctor is overshadowed. Exactly. That would totally pull focus from the outgoing Doctor. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 21, 2017 20:16:47 GMT
Heart-wrenching, it was cringe-inducing & embarrassing. Basically the actor & showrunner breaking the 4th wall in the most painfully horrible way. Boo hooing about leaving. Made me want to vomit. Summed up the worst excesses of the RTD era. By the end of The End of Time I was so glad to see Tennant leave. Outside of some nice character work with 10 & Wilf, the two hours really are cringe-inducing. And while John Simm may be credited as playing The Master, this was a video-game version of the character that has little to do with the character. |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Nov 22, 2017 10:01:40 GMT
Time of the Doctor was a case of trying to answer too many plot threads that didn't need answering, such as what was in the Doctor's room in The God Complex. Plus it also had that terrible regeneration where 11 literally sneezed into Peter Capaldi. The End of Time was amazing IMO though. You couldn't possibly ask for a better end to the David Tennant era. It had everything you would want from a conclusion - every key character returning, the emergence of the big threat that had been teased since the era began (there'd been so many references to the Time Lords by that point), the return of that Doctor's arch nemesis (Simm Master)... The regeneration is still the most heart-wrenching scene ever aired on television in my view. Heart-wrenching, it was cringe-inducing & embarrassing. Basically the actor & showrunner breaking the 4th wall in the most painfully horrible way. Boo hooing about leaving. Made me want to vomit. Summed up the worst excesses of the RTD era. It didn't make me cringe. I needed six buckets to collect all the tears. |
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My only problems with this are:
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