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Post by newt5996 on Feb 6, 2018 1:41:35 GMT
This is a topic I’ve not seen discussed but after a thought on the Christmas special I’ve begun to notice some similarities between the two companions:
-Both characters join the TARDIS due to issues with the Web of Time
-Both are strong female characters (though one is a Mary Sue)
-Both travel with one doctor as equals and one they do not trust initially
-Both leave with a memory wipe
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Post by omega on Feb 6, 2018 3:27:14 GMT
Both loved the Doctor, and had to go through a period with him where he was changed in personality (the Divergent Universe and the Twelfth Doctor). Both departures were involuntary.
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Post by barnabaslives on Feb 6, 2018 6:33:38 GMT
Are you trying to make me like Clara here? Well it won't work, I tell you! Just kidding, these are all really interesting observations.
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Post by omega on Feb 6, 2018 7:12:40 GMT
Early adventures included alien markets, unusual haunted houses and the Cybermen
Both lost something after encountering the Cybermen (the Eighth Doctor and Danny), and briefly believed they had or could have gotten that back (the Sixth Doctor's Tardis coming instead of Eight's and Clara saving the boy who's death Danny felt responsible for). Both these things marked a change in how the characters were written (Charley forced to be secretive and Clara being nor reckless).
Both were more socially conscious than their Doctors, advising him of the best way to behave when he made a faux pas (like the cards Clara had for Twelve).
Both were key factors in the Doctor returning to Gallifrey and an encounter with Rassilon (Neverland and Zagreus, Face the Raven and Heaven Sent/Hell Bent) both times leading to a period of anguish and no TARDIS for the Doctor (the Divergent Universe and the confession dial).
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 6, 2018 9:29:04 GMT
Very little, because Charley wasn’t annoying, patronising and outright rude and abusive towards the Doctor.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 6, 2018 10:07:14 GMT
Very little, because Charley wasn’t annoying, patronising and outright rude and abusive towards the Doctor. Normally I would disagree, but that does exactly describe Charley's actions in the 'You're dumping me scene' in Zagreus. He just rendered himself a poison to the universe to save Charley's life and is exiling himself outside of Time itself-and she accuses him of dumping her! Ugh. Distaste towards Zagreus aside, I don't think there's any more than some circumstantial similarities between the two.
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Post by omega on Feb 6, 2018 10:11:54 GMT
Very little, because Charley wasn’t annoying, patronising and outright rude and abusive towards the Doctor. Normally I would disagree, but that does exactly describe Charley's actions in the 'You're dumping me scene' in Zagreus. He just rendered himself a poison to the universe to save Charley's life and is exiling himself outside of Time itself-and she accuses him of dumping her! Ugh. Distaste towards Zagreus aside, I don't think there's any more than some circumstantial similarities between the two. That's a reverse of one of the climatic scenes in Neverland where Charley would rather die than let Gallifrey, and the whole of time, be infected with anti-time and even when she begs the Doctor to kill her (the villain was a nasty piece of work) he can't bring himself to do it because he loves her.
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Post by newt5996 on Feb 6, 2018 14:53:51 GMT
Are you trying to make me like Clara here? Well it won't work, I tell you! Just kidding, these are all really interesting observations. I would never, i was simply trying not to let personal distaste for certain companions to show as apparently these “fans” can be rather violent beasties.
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Post by glutamodo on Feb 6, 2018 15:50:52 GMT
-Both characters join the TARDIS due to issues with the Web of Time I don't know if I can agree with that one. Charlotte joining 8 had nothing to do with issues with the Web of Time. Conversely, the mere Fact that she did is what warped Ye Olde Webbe.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Feb 6, 2018 17:01:33 GMT
-Both leave with a memory wipe The Doctor, or the assistant. I don't know how Charley leaves!
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Post by omega on Feb 6, 2018 19:25:09 GMT
-Both leave with a memory wipe The Doctor, or the assistant. I don't know how Charley leaves! The Doctor, Sixie and Twelve.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 6, 2018 20:43:03 GMT
-Both leave with a memory wipe The Doctor, or the assistant. I don't know how Charley leaves! Are you sitting comfortably? here be spoilers: {Spoiler} Basically, Charley leaves the eighth Doctor because she thinks he’s dead. He’s actually forgotten that they reconciled after a massive argument because he got zapped by Cyber-technology.
She’s rescued from her fate by the sixth Doctor, therefore she spends her time with him avoiding mentioning her knowledge of his future.
HOWEVER, there’s also an entity in the TARDIS called Mila. A victim of Dalek experimentations who basically swaps places with sixie’s Charley and ends up supplanting Charley in his memories, therefore he remembers travelling with Mila not Charley as the sixth Doctor.
Charley is rescued from this fate by the Viryans.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Feb 7, 2018 22:26:46 GMT
The Doctor, or the assistant. I don't know how Charley leaves! Are you sitting comfortably? here be spoilers: {Spoiler} Basically, Charley leaves the eighth Doctor because she thinks he’s dead. He’s actually forgotten that they reconciled after a massive argument because he got zapped by Cyber-technology.
She’s rescued from her fate by the sixth Doctor, therefore she spends her time with him avoiding mentioning her knowledge of his future.
HOWEVER, there’s also an entity in the TARDIS called Mila. A victim of Dalek experimentations who basically swaps places with sixie’s Charley and ends up supplanting Charley in his memories, therefore he remembers travelling with Mila not Charley as the sixth Doctor.
Charley is rescued from this fate by the Viryans. For Gods sake. That is a mess!
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Post by Ela on Feb 7, 2018 23:21:16 GMT
I'm inclined to agree. I was underwhelmed by the way Charley leaves. I found it to be an unsatisfying leave-taking.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 1:14:04 GMT
To be fair, that is nine releases (so 24-ish episodes?) worth of story compressed down into a paragraph or two. Personally, I thought the run with Sixie and Charley was very strong, everything from The Condemned to Blue Forgotten Planet I enjoyed immensely. The arc was done very well with individual tales taking priority and the mistrust between the two always balancing on the right side of being believable. Both are aware that they don't trust one another as much as they should, but they can still function together as a team without it getting too much in the way.
It's one of Big Finish's best, I think. Thoughtful and clever, not talking down to its audience. It even managed to use the trilogy format for its finale without feeling rushed.
I really, really wish we had gotten more exploration of Clara post-Last Christmas with how she was coping with losing Danny. For all intents and purposes, it commits the same faux pas of early-1980s Doctor Who where a companion's backstory doesn't resurface until their departure (in this case, Face the Raven). Doctor Who has always been a show that dealt very frankly with the subject of death. Even in the silliest of Season 17 or 24, the Doctor and his companion still treated the subject with the earnestness it deserves; Nightmare of Eden and Paradise Towers both spring to mind in that regard (with the latter even having a funeral).
It's part of that unfortunate blushing that the Moffat era does. We don't talk about loss because loss doesn't happen. And when it actually does, we don't know how to handle it, so we don't acknowledge it. There's more than a touch of Happiness Patrol to it. It's a shame because there are shows like Steven Universe that are for children and deal with these kinds of problems in a very matter-of-fact, but optimistic fashion. It is possible and I've always thought it's important to talk about these kinds of things through media. Particularly when you have an arc that's set up around a character coping (unhealthily) with their grief.
Given Doctor Who's continued life in prose and print, stories that touch on Clara's grief during that period less obliquely might help to smooth out the character's sudden left turn at Face the Raven.
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Post by Ela on Feb 8, 2018 3:39:04 GMT
Was that in response to my post? I listened to all the releases and the way Blue Forgotten Planet ended was disappointing to me. I hated the way the Sixth Doctor’s relationship with Charley ended.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 4:46:10 GMT
Was that in response to my post? I listened to all the releases and the way Blue Forgotten Planet ended was disappointing to me. I hated the way the Sixth Doctor’s relationship with Charley ended. Nah, just continuing on the general discussion of the thread. It's fine if you think Blue Forgotten Planet missed the mark, we've all got our own opinions about what works and what doesn't. I'm not bothered. Sorry if that seemed to be directed straight at you. I've got hospital visits on my mind and it was just a general musing.
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Post by glutamodo on Feb 8, 2018 4:51:16 GMT
Well, anyone who was listening "knew" that there had to be some kind of Bad Ending that involved a MindWipe for Ol' Sixy. And they certainly delivered that. And I wasn't disappointed that they did so, but I certainly understand why some people wouldn't be happy with it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 5:07:46 GMT
Well, anyone who was listening "knew" that there had to be some kind of Bad Ending that involved a MindWipe for Ol' Sixy. And they certainly delivered that. And I wasn't disappointed that they did so, but I certainly understand why some people wouldn't be happy with it. I'm usually not a fan of the mindwipe/amnesia solution, truth be told. It's often used as a last-ditch save to free a character of ties to their past in preparation for whatever the new creator has in store for them. Planescape Torment is one of a handful of stories where an amnesiac protagonist done beautifully, the character may have forgotten but the world he lives in remembers all too keenly. I'll put it in spoiler tags because it really is a great arc and I highly recommend people pick it up: {Spoiler}For me personally, Blue Forgotten Planet scrapes in just above my threshold for such a thing because there's a personal cost. There's a tragedy to being rendered a nonperson for someone you've grown fond of and, from Charley's perspective, she's leaving him to die. She doesn't know Eight is still alive. It also has that nice little resonance of the Sixth Doctor still wandering towards that black cloud in his future. Ignoring what we know of the Seventh and Eighth Doctor, it paints a very interesting picture of his future. Maybe his meeting with Mel will lead not only to the Valeyard, but to his own death. It's really intriguing character stuff. But a wipe is still a wipe and I can completely understand why it might not have been an appropriate catharsis for such a strong run.
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Post by Ela on Feb 8, 2018 5:35:29 GMT
It wasn't the mind wipe that bothered me so much as {Spoiler}the way Mila replaced Charley to the extent that Mila ended up being with the Sixth Doctor longer than Charley. The whole thing just fell flat for me.
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