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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 5:46:08 GMT
It wasn't the mind wipe that bothered me so much as {Spoiler}the way Mila replaced Charley to the extent that Mila ended up being with the Sixth Doctor longer than Charley. The whole thing just fell flat for me. Yeah, I can definitely get that. It's a trick you'd probably only get away with once. Out of curiosity, and since it's on topic, what did you think of the Twelve/Clara mind wipe by comparison?
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Post by Ela on Feb 8, 2018 5:47:19 GMT
Probably so.
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Post by omega on Feb 8, 2018 5:50:32 GMT
Well, anyone who was listening "knew" that there had to be some kind of Bad Ending that involved a MindWipe for Ol' Sixy. And they certainly delivered that. And I wasn't disappointed that they did so, but I certainly understand why some people wouldn't be happy with it. I'm usually not a fan of the mindwipe/amnesia solution, truth be told. It's often used as a last-ditch save to free a character of ties to their past in preparation for whatever the new creator has in store for them. Planescape Torment is one of a handful of stories where an amnesiac protagonist done beautifully, the character may have forgotten but the world he lives in remembers all too keenly. I'll put it in spoiler tags because it really is a great arc and I highly recommend people pick it up: {Spoiler}For me personally, Blue Forgotten Planet scrapes in just above my threshold for such a thing because there's a personal cost. There's a tragedy to being rendered a nonperson for someone you've grown fond of and, from Charley's perspective, she's leaving him to die. She doesn't know Eight is still alive. It also has that nice little resonance of the Sixth Doctor still wandering towards that black cloud in his future. Ignoring what we know of the Seventh and Eighth Doctor, it paints a very interesting picture of his future. Maybe his meeting with Mel will lead not only to the Valeyard, but to his own death. It's really intriguing character stuff. But a wipe is still a wipe and I can completely understand why it might not have been an appropriate catharsis for such a strong run. I feel the same about reset buttons (figurative and literal). These things need some kind of cost, a price to be paid otherwise it's the writer undoing something to resolve the story. Charley's price was travelling with the Doctor. She's been on the defensive. Their relationship has been built on her lying and the Doctor not quite believing her. She's been paying for her transgressions, committed knowingly and unknowingly since Neverland at least. Charley has had to watch every word she's said around the Sixth Doctor. We find out her involvement in the Sixth Doctor's life has consequences in for his other incarnations. Her only option is removing herself from the Sixth Doctor's memories to limit any further damage. Charley admits at one point she could be screwing everything up just by being there.
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Post by Ela on Feb 8, 2018 6:36:49 GMT
It wasn't the mind wipe that bothered me so much as {Spoiler}the way Mila replaced Charley to the extent that Mila ended up being with the Sixth Doctor longer than Charley. The whole thing just fell flat for me. Yeah, I can definitely get that. It's a trick you'd probably only get away with once. Out of curiosity, and since it's on topic, what did you think of the Twelve/Clara mind wipe by comparison? It was unexpected, that's for sure. I liked the ending scene in the diner.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 9:57:25 GMT
It wasn't the mind wipe that bothered me so much as {Spoiler}the way Mila replaced Charley to the extent that Mila ended up being with the Sixth Doctor longer than Charley. The whole thing just fell flat for me. I didn't like it for exactly that reason. But {Spoiler} because Charley was the one who caused the mind wipe, at personal cost, I count it well above the "mind wipe" trope.
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mbt66
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Post by mbt66 on Feb 24, 2018 22:37:02 GMT
I liked both characters very much, but I would also point out another similarity - they both stayed too long with a Doctor.
Clara with her second Doctor (11). One season should have been enough.
Charley with her first Doctor (8). The Divergent Universe was not kind to her character.
I just hope that if/when Big Finish get to use her character Mr Briggs doesn’t do to Clara what he has done to Charley. That is a potential similarity I could do without.
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Post by coffeeaddict on Feb 25, 2018 2:37:53 GMT
I am probably in the minority, but I honestly disliked Charley. I thought she treated people like dirt more often than not. Clara was a far more caring person. Both had subpar departures, though Clara’s was ruined by the horrible pseudo-resurrection crap.
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Post by Ela on Feb 26, 2018 14:16:52 GMT
I am probably in the minority, but I honestly disliked Charley. I thought she treated people like dirt more often than not. Clara was a far more caring person. Both had subpar departures, though Clara’s was ruined by the horrible pseudo-resurrection crap. I’m not a huge fan of Charley, myself. Never understood all the praise she gets.
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Post by acousticwolf on Feb 26, 2018 15:03:27 GMT
I am probably in the minority, but I honestly disliked Charley. I thought she treated people like dirt more often than not. Clara was a far more caring person. Both had subpar departures, though Clara’s was ruined by the horrible pseudo-resurrection crap. I’m not a huge fan of Charley, myself. Never understood all the praise she gets. Ditto Cheers Tony
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Post by masterdoctor on Feb 26, 2018 15:07:39 GMT
I’m not a huge fan of Charley, myself. Never understood all the praise she gets. Ditto Cheers Tony Double Ditto, I even agree with coffeeadoct that Clara is a much superior character, despite her flaws.
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Post by mark687 on Feb 26, 2018 15:14:58 GMT
Double Ditto, I even agree with coffeeadoct that Clara is a much superior character, despite her flaws. Oh no I like both but "look at me I'm so Special and Clever" is a worse Companion trait then the "Lovelorn" trait.
Regards
mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 3:45:01 GMT
Double Ditto, I even agree with coffeeadoct that Clara is a much superior character, despite her flaws. Oh no I like both but "look at me I'm so Special and Clever" is a worse Companion trait then the "Lovelorn" trait.
Regards
mark687
I have to wonder if that's the fault of Clara or the arc around Clara though; speaking as someone who prefers Charley (despite the DU arc), but liked some of the interpretations of Clara that popped up. The problem with Clara was that she suffered the same kind of characterisation as Twelve did during that period. He was the not-Eleven and she was the not-Amy, rather than being Twelve and Clara. A bit like how Dodo ended up being the "young companion" stand-in for Vicki or Susan. She had her moments, but they didn't tend to show up very often. A bit of a shame really, I enjoyed her character when they did. After watching The Zygon Invasion for the first time, I was a bit disappointed that the idea of Bonnie hadn't been thought of from the get-go. That would've been fascinating. To see her as the actual Clara which the Doctor picked up and was trying to teach compassion to, particularly with Twelve. The aggressive, moody Doctor who has to check himself via his companion who just goes "Kill 'em, why not?" Would've made for an interesting change from the "most important person in the universe" arc, which we've threaded a number of times before on NuWho.
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