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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2018 23:40:56 GMT
Does anyone else take issue with Seven's development post-TV series?
I think fans tend to forget just how troubled Ace is in the TV series. Other adult figures have tried to help her, but to no avail and Seven's the first reliable parental figure she's ever known. He respects her, doesn't talk down to her, doesn't chasistie her intrests (particularly when he knows it stimulates her intellect and her self-worth) while trying to steer them into more productive areas while still being supportive - and his actions are more understandable when you consider he's trying to break her out of self-destructive patterns and bring some stability to her life, alien nature not withstanding.
It's why I struggle a bit with her development post-TV series and prefer her original intended TV ending. I just don't buy it that Seven would risk their relationship, however cosmic the threat in Love and War and be so callous. And while I love a lot of things Big Finish have done with the character (her relationship with Hex and Raine, her current dynamic with Mel), I do struggle that even after Thin Ice,Seven wouldn't try to steer her out of the TARDIS. Seven's more of a grownup then his preddesscors and successors, after all.
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Post by constonks on Mar 10, 2018 4:23:23 GMT
Does anyone else take issue with Seven's development post-TV series? (...) I think the Doctor loves Ace like he's a proud father but he can't let her go. He just keeps picking her up for more adventures again and again, regardless of what it's doing to her life. He may be mature when he wants to be and able to plan ahead but I think he's got a bit of a blind spot when it comes to her. Your point about Love and War is valid and is part of why I think BF has to happen after Lungbarrow for the Doctor and Ace, using her mindwipe in Prisoner's Dilemma as a catch-all (likely using the backup the Doc restored in Timewyrm: Genesys). |
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 10, 2018 6:31:37 GMT
The problem, I think, is that Ace's story arc was almost done by the end of Season 26. We should have had a couple more stories of her growing up, then the farewell as she grows up, goes off to the academy, and ends up as a Time Lord like the Doctor. The cancellation, however, led to the NAs going in a different direction by deliberately driving a rift between the Doctor and Ace that would culminate in Love and War and all the subsequent drama. Big Finish has toed a line somewhere between the two extremes, but fundamentally the issue is that is the Doctor isn't deliberately helping Ace get over her issues and bringing out her inner potential, he's just using her. I definitely prefer her original departure (which still happens at some point, though BF has never shown it) and really wish it had been filmed, although I do enjoy a lot of the post-TV Seven stories.
In short, in the the TV series, the Doctor gives Ace tough love, but in a lot of the "EU," he's just tough.
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Post by relativetime on Mar 10, 2018 8:56:24 GMT
I like the development of Seven, but only if I don't think about timelines or what story takes place after what, because then it kind of falls apart for me. It's like it goes round and round in circles, honestly - Seven manipulates companions, companions finally have too much, Seven makes it up to them, rinse, repeat. The most recent adventures with Seven, Ace, and Mel are hard to reconcile with the Ace and Hex stories (frankly, I honestly consider them to take place in an alternate timeline just after Season 24), even though they're supposed to take place after them apparently, and even the Ace and Hex stories are hard to reconcile with the Virgin New Adventures (some of which are unavoidably crucial to Big Finish's continuity) because of the development of Ace. A lot of my issues tie around to Ace, honestly. She's been reset back to basics so often it feels like and I feel like I've seen the same kind of conflicts between her and Seven over and over, I just don't have any interest in following it all. I love Ace, I think she's definitely Seven's most iconic companion (besides Benny), but I genuinely do not think there's anywhere left to go with this character and it's not doing anything interesting for the Seventh Doctor's character either.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 10, 2018 10:09:46 GMT
The Doctor does try to move her on in Thin Ice, she rejects it and explicitly asks him not to organise anymore stuff like that for her. He genuinely likes Ace so why would he push her to leave if she doesn't want to? Big Finish seems to just extend the 'tough love' relationship, and why would the Doctor make her leave if she doesn't want to? He might be a grown-up, but he still respects her opinion enough not to try again.
However the NAs go down a completely different direction, starting with Nightshade in which the Doctor literally refuses to left Ace leave the TARDIS. I haven't read how it plays out in the book, but thankfully the adaptation exorcises that detail as at least in my opinion that's just not something that fits the Doctor at all. Who knows, maybe the way the novel depicts it mitigates it. But that isn't 'tough love' that's just 'tough'.
As for Love and War well, it's difficult. Based on the adaptation the Doctor doesn't want to lose Ace, and it's debatable whether or not he actually planned to resolve things the way he had to. He doesn't seem to come across as callous at least. (Although didn't the novel where Ace came back imply the Doctor deliberately wanted her to leave so she could return at a later point to help deal with an infection in the TARDIS or something, can't remember where I read that though.) Of course I don't know how the novel depicts it, so maybe he comes across differently there. (I really should try to track down some novels online)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2018 0:13:54 GMT
The problem, I think, is that Ace's story arc was almost done by the end of Season 26. We should have had a couple more stories of her growing up, then the farewell as she grows up, goes off to the academy, and ends up as a Time Lord like the Doctor. The cancellation, however, led to the NAs going in a different direction by deliberately driving a rift between the Doctor and Ace that would culminate in Love and War and all the subsequent drama. Big Finish has toed a line somewhere between the two extremes, but fundamentally the issue is that is the Doctor isn't deliberately helping Ace get over her issues and bringing out her inner potential, he's just using her. I definitely prefer her original departure (which still happens at some point, though BF has never shown it) and really wish it had been filmed, although I do enjoy a lot of the post-TV Seven stories. In short, in the the TV series, the Doctor gives Ace tough love, but in a lot of the "EU," he's just tough. I don't think he's using her - the impression I received that he's tried to give Ace her freedom after Thin Ice and he's become lost in his agenda, that he's lost track of Ace getting older, which again, doesn't really ring true to his TV characterisation. I'm not saying his behaviour is great - how many times does he pluck on those Fenric heartstrings - but he still cares for her deeply. Taking Hex onboard makes him begin to reconsider his approach and eschewing Ace into his plans, and when his actions do have long-standing reprecussions for his companions (and Hex questioning Seven begins to affect his relationship with Ace) , he enlists Sally and Lysanda to pursure his agenda. I'm not saying this is the best decision, so much of this is pure avoidiance - trying to reconcile being The Doctor and the man he's become and having the best of both worlds - (Hex had a life he could return to and his influence on Ace could steer her into being a proper adult and Seven's arrogance in believing that messing with the Elder Gods isn't going to affect his companions), but it's clear he cares about the effect his machinations have upon them and he's putting their needs somewhat first before his agenda, even though his companions are ADULTS and not children and this comes back to bite him big time. He loses Hex because of it, a man reminds him of his early incarnations and acts as his moral compass and instead of facing him, leaves him and Sally to move on without him and Ace's best shot at becoming a functional adult. Post-Hex, we've seen Seven try and steer Ace towards adulthood and to Galifery and respects her autonomy , but as Mel's return demonstrates, they can't go back to where they were. She's not a kid anymore, but she's also not a grown up and he's responsible for fostering her unhealthy dependency on him. We know Mel's presence is going to have some influence on Ace (and unlike Hex, Mel isn't afraid to take The Doctor to task), but whether or not it'll be the final push out of the TARDIS remains to be seen. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2018 0:29:03 GMT
The Doctor does try to move her on in Thin Ice, she rejects it and explicitly asks him not to organise anymore stuff like that for her. He genuinely likes Ace so why would he push her to leave if she doesn't want to? Big Finish seems to just extend the 'tough love' relationship, and why would the Doctor make her leave if she doesn't want to? He might be a grown-up, but he still respects her opinion enough not to try again. He still has the responsibility of being the only stable adult figure in her life and to steer her into being an adult. That doesn't stop because you recgonise your adoptive child's autonomy or how your actions hurt her. It's been awhile since I read (not a fan of Ace's development in the New Adventures at all) or listened to the adapation, but I can't reconcile TV Seven with the man who exploits the remains of his adoptive daughter's love consciousness and expects her to return, even with his mind affected. |
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Post by mark687 on Mar 11, 2018 0:39:25 GMT
Nope love the New Adventures and the Doctor/Companion dynamics in them.
Regards
mark687
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Post by sherlock on Mar 11, 2018 0:45:15 GMT
The Doctor does try to move her on in Thin Ice, she rejects it and explicitly asks him not to organise anymore stuff like that for her. He genuinely likes Ace so why would he push her to leave if she doesn't want to? Big Finish seems to just extend the 'tough love' relationship, and why would the Doctor make her leave if she doesn't want to? He might be a grown-up, but he still respects her opinion enough not to try again. He still has the responsibility of being the only stable adult figure in her life and to steer her into being an adult. That doesn't stop because you recgonise your adoptive child's autonomy or how your actions hurt her. It's been awhile since I read (not a fan of Ace's development in the New Adventures at all) or listened to the adapation, but I can't reconcile TV Seven with the man who exploits the remains of his adoptive daughter's love consciousness and expects her to return, even with his mind affected. I'm not a big fan of the road the NAs took the Doctor and Ace's relationship down, but based on the adaptation it does seem like the Doctor had little choice in Love and War. He certainly takes no pride in what he's done. To me Love and War as Big Finish depicts it is the end point of the 'grand manipulator' development of the seventh Doctor, hence my preference of placing the Ace/Hex and subsequent Ace/Mel audios before the NA adaptations. It's been a while since I listened to Love and War actually, I might re-listen once my backlog's clear. I'd never really considered Ace as the Doctor's adoptive daughter. I suppose she is one of his youngest companions. |
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Mar 13, 2018 8:26:06 GMT
I don't remember Steven and Ace ever meeting. I remember though Peter Purves wanted him to become as corrupt as those he replaced.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 8:31:51 GMT
He still has the responsibility of being the only stable adult figure in her life and to steer her into being an adult. That doesn't stop because you recgonise your adoptive child's autonomy or how your actions hurt her. It's been awhile since I read (not a fan of Ace's development in the New Adventures at all) or listened to the adapation, but I can't reconcile TV Seven with the man who exploits the remains of his adoptive daughter's love consciousness and expects her to return, even with his mind affected. I'm not a big fan of the road the NAs took the Doctor and Ace's relationship down, but based on the adaptation it does seem like the Doctor had little choice in Love and War. He certainly takes no pride in what he's done. To me Love and War as Big Finish depicts it is the end point of the 'grand manipulator' development of the seventh Doctor, hence my preference of placing the Ace/Hex and subsequent Ace/Mel audios before the NA adaptations. It's been a while since I listened to Love and War actually, I might re-listen once my backlog's clear. I'd never really considered Ace as the Doctor's adoptive daughter. I suppose she is one of his youngest companions. The Doctor refers to her as such in A Death in the Family. |
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