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Post by Whovitt on Mar 18, 2018 23:49:16 GMT
*deep breath* 🎶 ...and in short in every manner that a Gallifreyan holds most dear, he is the very model of a Gallifreyan Buccaneer. 🎶 This is amazing. Thank you It's taken a lot of work, so I'm glad to see people are so enthusiastic about it
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 6:31:08 GMT
Miscellaneous Releases/More Spin-offs
Next up we'll mop up some extraneous releases. First, we'll look at the Bonus Releases: Real Time (features Evelyn Smythe) Shada (references MRs 2. Phantasmagoria and 6. The Marian Conspiracy) The Fires of Vulcan ( Main Range story referenced in BR2 - Shada) Her Final Flight (references MR 56. The Axis of Insanity) Cryptobiosis (features a Vortisaur, first appearing in MR 16. Storm Warning; this one can be contended) An Earthly Child (prequel to EDA 4.7. Relative Dimensions) The Five Companions (the Sontarans recognise this incarnation of the Doctor, likely from MR 146. Heroes of Sontar; this one can be contended) Now Included: Main Range 11, BR1-4, 8, and 10 Next up are a smattering of random releases: No Place Like Home (features Erimem [referenced as "SR1"]) Living Legend (features Charley [referenced as "SR2"]) The Light at the End (features Charley [referenced as "50AS"]) The Excelis series (features Bernice Summerfield and Iris Wildthyme) The Destiny of the Doctor series (featuring Charley) Sympathy for the Devil and Masters of War (features the 'Unbound Doctor' from The New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield: Volumes 3 and 4 [referenced as "Unbound 2/8"]) UNIT: Dominion (features Elizabeth Klein and the MacQueen Master) Dalek Empire (spin-off series based on the MR 'Dalek Empire' quadrilogy) Bonus Release - Return of the Daleks (linked into the Dalek Empire series) Cyberman (spin-off series based on MR 17. Sword of Orion) Kingdom of Silver ( Main Range story that ties in with Cyberman: Series 2) I, Davros (spin-off series, events of which are referenced in MR 48. Davros) Now Included: Main Range 112, BR5, SR1-2, 50AS, Excelis, Destiny of the Doctor, Unbound 2/8, UNIT: Dominion, Dalek Empire, Cyberman, and I, DavrosCompanion Chronicles (CC)[Things start to get a little more complicated here, so there are numerous stories that can be contended over whether they classify as canon or not] To begin with we will look at all the stories featuring Big Finish companions who are canon, as well as those stories that cross story arcs with the Main Range (and others): {Spoiler} The Prisoner's Dilemma (part of 'The Key 2 Time' arc) The Mahogany Murderers (pilot to the Jago & Litefoot series) Bernice Summerfield and the Criminal Code (features Bernice Summerfield) Night's Black Agents (part of the 'Old Jamie' arc) Solitaire (features Charley) Find and Replace (features Iris Wildthyme) A Town Called Fortune (features Evelyn Smythe) Quinnis (framing story takes place between BR8 - An Earthly Child and EDA 4.9. Lucie Miller) Tales from the Vault (prequel to The Worlds of Doctor Who Episode 3) The Rocket Men (features the Rocket Men, who also appear in MR 213. The Two Masters) Project: Nirvana (part of the B&W TARDIS arc) Return of the Rocket Men (features the Rocket Men, who also appear in MR 213. The Two Masters) The Scorchies (features the Scorchies, who later appear in the Jago & Litefoot series) Mastermind (prequel to The Worlds of Doctor Who Episode 3) The Elixir of Doom (features Iris Wildthyme) The Three Companions (features Thomas Brewster [referenced as "CCS1"]) Night of the Stormcrow (Bonus Release featuring the Coffin-Loaders from CCS1 The Three Companions; this one can be contended]) Now Included: 3.8, 3.11, 4.6, 4.11-4.12, 5.3, 5.5-5.6, 6.1-6.2, 7.3, 7.5, 7.9, 8.1, 8.11, CCS1, BR11 Referenced CC stories from the previous list and all other current materials: {Spoiler} Mother Russia (references CC 7.5. Return of the Rocket Men) The Doll of Death (references CCS1 The Three Companions) The Transit of Venus (references CC 5.6. Quinnis) The Magician's Oath (referenced in The Worlds of Doctor Who Episode 3) The Glorious Revolution (referenced by the Doctor in MR 143. The Crimes of Thomas Brewster) Ringpullworld (features Huxley from CC 5.3. Find and Replace; this one can be contended) Shadow of Past (features the Mim from Bernice Summerfield 8.1. The Tub Full of Cats; this one can be contended) Echoes of Grey (referenced by Jamie in 199. Last of the Cybermen/part of 'The Company' arc) Fear of the Daleks (part of 'The Company' arc) Sentinels of the New Dawn (references the Mim in CC 4.9. Shadows of the Past; this one can be contended) Peri and the Piscon Paradox (references to several canon Big Finish stories) The Memory Cheats (part of 'The Company' arc) The Selachian Gambit (features the Selachians from MR 132. The Architects of History; this one can be contended) Resistance (referenced in CC 6.8. The Selachian Gambit) The Time Museum (references CC 6.2. The Rocket Men) The Uncertainty Principle (part of 'The Company' arc) The Flames of Cadiz (references CC 3.7. The Transit of Venus) House of Cards (references CC 6.8. The Selachian Gambit) The Library of Alexandria (features the Mim from Bernice Summerfield 8.1. The Tub Full of Cats; this one can be contended) The Apocalypse Mirror (referenced by Jamie in MR 199. Last of the Cybermen) The Dying Light (Hypercube used by the Doctor in MR 199. Last of the Cybermen) The Beginning and Luna Romana (part of the 'Quadrigger Stoyn' trilogy with CC 8.6. The Dying Light) The War to End All Wars (references CC 7.5. Return of the Rocket Men) Second Chances (part of 'The Company' arc) The Founding Fathers and The Locked Room (sequels to CC 8.10. The War to End All Wars) The Suffering (referenced in CC 9.3. The Founding Fathers) The First Wave (referenced in CC 9.4. The Locked Room) The Perpetual Bond and The Cold Equations (part of the 'Oliver Harper' trilogy) The Mists of Time (references CC 3.3. The Doll of Death [referenced as "CCS2"])
Now Included: 1.2, 2.1, 3.3, 3.7, 3.9, 3.10, 4.2, 4.5, 4.7, 4.9, 5.2, 5.7-5.8, 5.12, 6.3, 6.5, 6.8, 7.1-7.2, 7.7-7.8, 7.11, 8.5-8.7, 8.10, 8.12, 9.3-9.4, CCS2 Early Adventures (EA)And to finish off the majority of the 60's era of Big Finish Doctor Who: The Doctor's Tale (references CC 7.7. The Flames of Cadiz) An Ordinary Life (ties in with Counter-Measures 3.1. Changing of the Guard/part of the 'Steven/Sara' arc) Home Truths ( Companion Chronicle, part of the 'Sara Kingdom' trilogy/explains appearance in MR 146. Heroes of Sontar; this one can be contended) The Drowned World ( Companion Chronicle, part of the 'Sara Kingdom trilogy/explains appearance in MR 146. Heroes of Sontar; this one can be contended) The Guardian of the Solar System ( Companion Chronicle, part of the 'Sara Kingdom' trilogy/explains appearance in MR 146. Heroes of Sontar; this one can be contended) The Anachronauts ( Companion Chronicle, part of the 'Steven/Sara' arc; this one can be contended) The Yes Men (references the Mim from Bernice Summerfield 8.1. The Tub Full of Cats; this one can be contended) The Black Hole (features the Hound Monk from Doom Coalition 4.3. The Side of the Angels) Helicon Prime ( Companion Chronicle taking place during EA 2.3. The Black Hole; this one can be contended) The Isos Network (referenced by Jamie in MR 199. Last of the Cybermen) The Sontarans (part of the 'Steven/Sara' arc; this one can be contended) The Night Witches (follows on from EA 2.1. The Yes Men) Now Included: EAs 1.2, 1.4-2.1, 2.3-2.4, 3.4-4.1, CCs 2.2, 3.5, 4.1, 5.1, 6.7 TOTAL CANON: Main Range: 1-2, 4-9, 11-12, 15-33, 36-41, 43, 45, 47-65, 67-69, 71-84, 86-89, 91-93, 94.1, 95.1, 97, 99-108, 110-141, 143-149, 151-167, 169-177, 180-184, 189-202, 204-208, 211-220, 225-229, 231-233, 241-244 CC: 1.2, 2.1-2.2, 3.3, 3.5, 3.7-3.11, 4.1-4.2, 4.5-4.7, 4.9, 4.11-5.3, 5.5-5.8, 5.10, 5.12-6.3, 6.5, 6.7-6.8, 7.1-7.3, 7.5, 7.7-7.11, 8.1, 8.5-8.7, 8.10-8.12, 9.3-9.4, CCS1-2EA: 1.2, 1.4-2.1, 2.3-2.4, 3.4-4.1 Other Ranges: Destiny of the Doctor, Excelis, and UNIT: DominionOther: BR1-4, 7-8, 10-11, SR1-2, 6D-TLA, 50AS, Unbound 2/8 Spin-offs: Cyberman, Dalek Empire, and I, Davros
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 7:39:29 GMT
Time War/New Series
[This isn't a huge list as of yet, but I'm sure it will grow as time goes on]
We'll begin with Time War stories: Day of the Vashta Nerada (features Cardinal Ollistra, Doom Coalition 4.3. The Side of the Angels [referenced as "CDNM 2.4"]) Night of the Vastha Nerada (prequel to CDNM 2.4 Day of the Vashta Nerada [referenced as "CDNM 2.1") The Eighth Doctor - The Time War: Series 1 (features Cardinal Ollistra, Doom Coalition 4.3. The Side of the Angels, and this is an ongoing story [referenced as "EDTW"]) The War Doctor series (features Cardinal Ollistra, Doom Coalition 4.3. The Side of the Angels, and all these box sets are ongoing stories with at least one episode featuring her) The War Master - Only the Good (takes place around the Gallifrey - The Time War episode "The Devil You Know")
Now Included: CDNM 2.1/2.4, EDTW 1.1-1.4, The War Doctor 1.1-4.3, The War Master 1.1-1.4
Next we'll have a specific focus on The Diary of River Song. In Doom Coalition: 4.2. Songs of Love, the 8th Doctor briefly regains his memories of previous adventures with River, referring to "the Great Storm" (RS 2.4. The Eye of the Storm) and "Vienna" (RS 3.2. Requiem for the Doctor). As the River Song box sets are continuous stories, this canonises both Series 2 and Series 3 of this spin-off.
Now Included: RS 2.1-3.4
And another separate focus for UNIT: The New Series. UNIT: Assembled name checks several characters, including Elisabeth Klein, thus canonising this series (this additionally canonises Companion Chronicle 7.12 Council of War where Benton meets his future wife, Margery). As Josh needs to obtain his plastic skeleton from UNIT: Extinction, this series must also be canon. Osgood recalls her trip to the Gobi desert during 2.2. Death in Geneva of UNIT: Shutdown, so this series is also canon. Colonel Shindi is still recovering from his injury in 1.4. Armageddon in UNIT: Silenced, and Josh's plasticness has a plot effect in 5.2. Invocation of UNIT: Encounters. And, given UNIT: Cyber Reality is a continuation of the plot thread of Encounters, that, too, must be canon.
Now Included: CC 7.12, UNIT-NS 1.1-6.4
Now for New Series stuff in general: The Carrionite Curse (the Doctor finds Litefoot's book from J&L 5.2 The Bloodchild Codex [reference CDNM 2.3]) Young Winston (features Madame Vastra, mentioned in Jago & Litefoot & Strax [referenced as "CY 2.1"]) I Was Churchill's Double (references MR 16. Storm Warning [referenced as "CY 2.3"])
Now Included: CDNM 2.3, CY 2.1/2.3 [Note: Given the presence of Sam Bishop in the series, Lady Christina will also likely be canon, but more information on that set is required before making that official]
TOTAL CANON:
CC: 1.2, 2.1-2.2, 3.3, 3.5, 3.7-3.11, 4.1-4.2, 4.5-4.7, 4.9, 4.11-5.3, 5.5-5.8, 5.10, 5.12-6.3, 6.5, 6.7-6.8, 7.1-7.3, 7.5, 7.7-8.1, 8.5-8.7, 8.10-8.12, 9.3-9.4, CCS1-2
Ranges: EDTW, War Doctor series, UNIT - The New Series
Other: CDNM 2.1, 2.3-2.4, CY 2.1/2.3, RS 2.1-3.4
Spin-offs: The War Master 1.1-1.4
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 11:31:23 GMT
Have just added a section for River Song and UNIT - The New Series in the above post (not sure how I missed those...)
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 19, 2018 11:59:29 GMT
Agreed. Speaking of the side steps, surely The Maltese Penguin and The Holy Terror are canon too because The Doctor Falls canonised The World Shapers by referring to Marinus as one of the origins of the Cybermen. This in effect making the Doctor's travels with Frobisher canon, so Big Finish's sidesteps into that comic storyline should be canon too. That was one of things I considered but I decided that, just for the time being, working off The Night of the Doctor was probably the best place to start Expanding beyond that could have made things a bit too confusing I may go back and add this one though. As for Scourge and Dark Flame, I don't feel that they're entirely reconcilable with the TV series (which this list is "supposed" to be), so I'm thinking it would probably make sense for them not to be included. To each their own though Working just off the Main Range I get your point. I suppose once you start adding the side ranges later that they'll return to canon mwahahahahahahaha
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 12:04:50 GMT
That was one of things I considered but I decided that, just for the time being, working off The Night of the Doctor was probably the best place to start Expanding beyond that could have made things a bit too confusing I may go back and add this one though. As for Scourge and Dark Flame, I don't feel that they're entirely reconcilable with the TV series (which this list is "supposed" to be), so I'm thinking it would probably make sense for them not to be included. To each their own though Working just off the Main Range I get your point. I suppose once you start adding the side ranges later that they'll return to canon mwahahahahahahaha Having a little look through me notes, yes, they most likely will (Though I'll be twisting my own arm )
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 19, 2018 12:05:39 GMT
Working just off the Main Range I get your point. I suppose once you start adding the side ranges later that they'll return to canon mwahahahahahahaha Having a little look through me notes, yes, they most likely will (Though I'll be twisting my own arm ) Well if you want to save the embarrassment I can twist it for you lol
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 12:09:36 GMT
Having a little look through me notes, yes, they most likely will (Though I'll be twisting my own arm ) Well if you want to save the embarrassment I can twist it for you lol Not just yet, I need it for the typing
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Post by Ela on Mar 19, 2018 14:27:20 GMT
Oh, goody. Another “is it canon or not” discussion.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 14:36:11 GMT
Oh, goody. Another “is it canon or not” discussion. It's not really meant in that way at all, it's just a bit of fun on the, "Well, if you want to be 'super technical'," front Like I said in the OP, it's up to the individual to take it 'seriously' or not
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Post by barnabaslives on Mar 19, 2018 15:46:27 GMT
These are awesome, thank you! (I will have to spell check you on Cryptobiosis though. I'm probably being totally pedantic, but then again I may have been studying microbial cryptobiosis - under just about every other possible name except that one).
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Post by Ela on Mar 19, 2018 18:36:49 GMT
Oh, goody. Another “is it canon or not” discussion. It's not really meant in that way at all, it's just a bit of fun on the, "Well, if you want to be 'super technical'," front Like I said in the OP, it's up to the individual to take it 'seriously' or not Yes, I read the initial post. Just kidding around.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 19, 2018 22:38:46 GMT
These are awesome, thank you! (I will have to spell check you on Cryptobiosis though. I'm probably being totally pedantic, but then again I may have been studying microbial cryptobiosis - under just about every other possible name except that one). Thank you Oh, sorry about that one As you can probably imagine, with lists this long it can be a bit difficult to notice every typo, especially with so many words that get red squiggles underneath them anyway (Though I'm slightly annoyed at myself with just how wrong that one was...) All fixed now though It's not really meant in that way at all, it's just a bit of fun on the, "Well, if you want to be 'super technical'," front Like I said in the OP, it's up to the individual to take it 'seriously' or not Yes, I read the initial post. Just kidding around. Sorry Should probably have waited until it wasn't 2am to read your post
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 20, 2018 2:21:13 GMT
Fourth Doctor AdventuresThe 4DAs are a very difficult series to pin down as there aren't as many direct references between many of the stories. This list is mostly likely not comprehensive and any help anyone could offer to fix that would be appreciated To begin with we'll look at stories that link back to other characters/stories in other ranges:{Spoiler} Energy of the Daleks (Leela remembers the Daleks later in her timeline in Gallifrey 6.1 Extermination) Trail of the White Worm/The Oseidon Adventure (Leela remember the Master later in her timeline in Gallifrey 9.3 The Devil You Know) Destroy the Infinite (features the Eminence from the Dark Eyes series) Requiem for the Rocket Men/Death Match (features the Rocket Men, who appeared in MR 213. The Two Masters)
Now Included: 4DA 1.4-1.6, 3.7, 4.3-4.4Referenced 4DA stories from this list:{Spoiler} The Wrath of the Iceni (referenced in 4DA 1.5 Trail of the White Worm) The Renaissance Man (referenced in 4DA 1.3 The Wrath of the Iceni) The Justice of Jalxar (Romana's nickname at the academy, first mentioned in Gallifrey 2.1 Lies, is brought up again; this one can be contended) The Sands of Life/War Against the Laan (K9 is damaged here for him to still be incapacitated in 4DA 2.4 The Justice of Jalxar) Phantoms of the Deep (K9 is repaired from his damage in 4DA 2.2/2.3 The Sands of Life/War Against the Laan) The Dalek Contract/The Final Phase (sequel to 4DA 2.2/2.3 The Sands of Life/War Against the Laan) The Evil One (references 4DA 1.5/1.6 Trail of the White Worm/The Oseidon Adventure) Last of the Colophon (Leela makes a comment suggesting she has met the Master; this one can be contended) The Trouble with Drax (Romana's nickname at the academy, first mentioned in Gallifrey 2.1 Lies, is brought up again; this one can be contended) Gallery of Ghouls (the Doctor references having recently beien to Brighton in 4DA 5.6 The Trouble with Drax; this one can be contended) The Pursuit of History/Casualties of Time (sequel to 4DA 2.6/2.7 The Dalek Contract/The Final Phase) The Beast of Kravenos (Jago refers having met a different Romana in 4DA 2.4 The Justice of Jalxar) The Haunting of Malkin Place (the Doctor owns his Baker Street house which appears in later canon stories) The Crowmarsh Experiment (references 4DA 4.3 Requiem for the Rocket Men) The King of Sonar (referenced in 4DA 7.2 The Crowmarsh Experiment) White Ghosts (references 4DA 3.1 The King of Sontar) The Darkness of Glass (referenced in 4DA 7.2. The Crowmarsh Experiment)
The Fate of Krelos/Return to Telos (references 4DA 3.1 The King of Sontar and 4DA 3.2 White Ghosts)Now Included: 1.2-1.3, 2.2-3.2, 3.4-3.6, 4.2-4.4, 4.7-4.8, 5.5-6.1, 6.5, 7.2Third/Fifth Doctor Adventures
This is a quick summary of miscellaneous 3rd/5th Doctor stories that fit in the canon: {Spoiler} The Havoc of Empires (the Attow Eels were transported from the planet Tersurus, mentioned/visited in MR 33. Neverland, MR 213. The Two Masters, and UNIT: Dominion) The Rise of the New Humans (features the Hound Monk from Doom Coalition 4.3 The Side of the Angels) Iterations of I (Tegan mentions having visited Ireland in MR 208. The Waters of Amsterdam; this one can be contended) Now Included: 3DA: 1.2, 4.1, 5DA: 1.2 TOTAL CANON: 3DA: 1.2, 4.1 4DA: 1.2-1.6, 2.2-3.2, 3.4-3.6, 4.2, 4.7-4.8, 5.5-6.1, 6.5, 7.2
5DA: 1.2
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 20, 2018 3:18:39 GMT
The Lost StoriesWhile some of these don't technically fit within the continuity of the TV show (Mission to Magnus doesn't technically fit as Peri states in The Trial of a Timelord: Mindwarp that the last time she and the Doctor saw Sil was on Varos), these are all the stories that match up to the correct criteria to be canon:{Spoiler} Leviathan (reference to CC 5.10 The Sentinels of the New Dawn) Mission to Magnus (referenced in LS 1.3 Leviathan) The Hollows of Time (referenced in CC 5.7 Peri and the Piscon Paradox) Paradise 5 (references LS 1.4 The Hollows of Time) The Macros (references LS 1.4 The Hollows of Time) Point of Entry (referenced in LS 1.8 The Macros) Farewell, Great Macedon (referenced in CC 7.1 The Time Museum [referenced as "LS 2.1.1"]) The Ghosts of Gralstead (references LS 2.1.1 Farewell, Great Macedon) The Devil's Armada (follows directly on from PHP 1.1 The Ghosts of Gralstead) As Raine appears in UNIT: Dominion, her earlier adventures with the Doctor must be canon, therefore Thin Ice, Crime of the Century, Animal and Earth Aid are all canon The Foe from the Future (Leela mentions in 4DA 1.3 The Wrath of the Iceni that see has seen history changed before, likely referring to these events[referenced as "LS 2.7.1"]; this one can be contended) The Elite (references MR 208. The Waters of Amsterdam) Hexagora (references LS 3.1 The Elite) The Children of Seth (references LS 3.2 Hexagora) The Masters of Luxor (referenced in CC 7.1 The Time Museum) The Fragile Yell Arc of Fragrance (reference in LS 3.7 The Masters of Luxor [referenced as "LS 2.1.2"]) The Rosemariners (referenced in LS 3.1 The Elite) Now Included: LS 1.2-1.6, 1.8-2.1.2, 2.3-2.7.1, 3.1-3.3, 3.7-3.8, PHP 1.1-1.2Novel AdaptationsI personally believe that the canonicity of these stories can still be chosen by the individual listener, however these are the stories that can be considered canon:
{Spoiler} Love and War (reference is made to Ace's brother Liam in MR 36. The Rapture) The Highest Science (as the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; this one can be contended) The Well-Mannered War (features the Chelonians from NA 2. The Highest Science; this one can be contended) The Romance of Crime (features Menlove Stokes, who appears again in NA 5. The Well-Mannered War; this one can be contended) Damaged Goods (as the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; this one can be contended) Theatre of War (aas the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; this one can be contended) All-Consuming Fire (as the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; this one can be contended) Nightshade (as the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; this one can be contended) Original Sin (as the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; this one can be contended) Cold Fusion (as the VNA novels were originally one ongoing story, this release technically counts a part of the same continuity line as NA 1. Love and War; while this is a VMA, it was designed to fit into the VNA continuity; this one can be contended) The Shadow of the Scourge and The Dark Flame (these two Main Range stories fit into the continuity established by VNAs and the Novel Adaptations range) Now Included: Main Range 13, 42, NA 1-3, 5-11
TOTAL CANON:
Main Range: 1-2, 4-9, 11-13, 15-33, 36-43, 45, 47-65, 67-69, 71-84, 86-89, 91-93, 94.1, 95.1, 97, 99-108, 110-141, 143-149, 151-167, 169-177, 180-184, 189-202, 204-208, 211-220, 225-229, 231-233, 241-244
LS: 1.2-1.6, 1.8-2.1.2, 2.3-2.7.1, 3.1-3.3, 3.7-3.8
PHP: 1.1-1.2
NA: 1-3, 5-11
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Post by hamsterexastris on Mar 20, 2018 4:01:40 GMT
Thank you for this thread - this justifies my decision to pick up all of the main range despite mainly being a fan of the Eighth Doctor.
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Post by chareth on Mar 20, 2018 4:09:24 GMT
If you're using the logic 'Charley is canon, therefore all stories featuring Charley are canon', then by that logic you could just easily prove that all Big Finish Doctor Who stories are canon by saying 'the Doctor is canon, therefore all stories featuring the Doctor are canon'. Not really Until The Night of the Doctor, there was nothing to suggest that the Big Finish stories were part of the TV canon. With TNotD, we've learned, straight from the Doctor, that five of those companions "definitely happened". Let's take Charley as our example. In this case, as she is now "officially a companion", she must have a minimum of two stories - arrival ( Storm Warning) and departure ( The Girl Who Never Was). Given the complexities of Charley though, she has another two - arrival with Sixie ( The Condemned) and departure with Sixie ( Blue Forgotten Planet). Now we need to factor in C'rizz. As C'rizz is introduced in The Creed of the Kromon, that means that 8/Charley have to have reached the Divergent Universe, so all stories necessary to get there must be taken into consideration, and as most if not all of the stories that lead up to Neverland/ Zagreus make mention of her non-death on the R101, all those stories must therefore, unequivocally, be canon. Then, as C'rizz leaves in Absolution, at least every story in the Divergent Universe arc must be canon to ensure that they definitely escaped from that universe for C'rizz to depart in this one, meaning that up until at least Terror Firma definitely happened. At this point it is only fair to assume that it is the adventures that Big Finish released at the time that would be the equivalent to, say, Season 24 of the TV show, where the 7th Doctor appears in Time and the Rani and Mel leaves in Dragonfire - it's the sequence of stories that we were given at the time that clearly "matter" (I hope that's the right word to use here), therefore all the other stories up until Absolution will have influenced Charley/C'rizz as characters and people, therefore they should be assumed to have happened. The reason this is different to saying, "the Doctor is canon, therefore all stories featuring the Doctor are canon," is that their Big Finish stories could continue to be ignored unless he (the Doctor) directly mentions those events as having happened. If no mention is made, there is nothing to suggest that they happened. Non-canon until proven canon, as it were 5/6/7's stories have not been mentioned, therefore they haven't happened unless there is something (a companion, for example) to prove that they did. I hope that's cleared things up? It's not very easy to explain in written words (if we could all talk in person this would be much easier ). Actually, that cleared things up surprisingly well! I totally see where you're coming from now. I do still think you could probably pick out stories featuring Charley, for example, that aren't explicitly referenced by other stories and say that they're non-canon (the fact that a story references the events with the R101 doesn't confirm that that story is canon, it only confirms that Storm Warning is canon), but you make a convincing argument in saying that they can be assumed to have happened since they all influence the characters. I've also realised a flaw in my original post, in that since all Big Finish stories are written from the assumption that all previous Big Finish stories are canon, whereas most TV stories are not, the canonicity of Big Finish stories ought to imply the canonicity of other Big Finish stories in a way that TV stories don't, so there's certainly a difference between Charley and the Doctor in that respect.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 20, 2018 4:18:09 GMT
Not really Until The Night of the Doctor, there was nothing to suggest that the Big Finish stories were part of the TV canon. With TNotD, we've learned, straight from the Doctor, that five of those companions "definitely happened". Let's take Charley as our example. In this case, as she is now "officially a companion", she must have a minimum of two stories - arrival ( Storm Warning) and departure ( The Girl Who Never Was). Given the complexities of Charley though, she has another two - arrival with Sixie ( The Condemned) and departure with Sixie ( Blue Forgotten Planet). Now we need to factor in C'rizz. As C'rizz is introduced in The Creed of the Kromon, that means that 8/Charley have to have reached the Divergent Universe, so all stories necessary to get there must be taken into consideration, and as most if not all of the stories that lead up to Neverland/ Zagreus make mention of her non-death on the R101, all those stories must therefore, unequivocally, be canon. Then, as C'rizz leaves in Absolution, at least every story in the Divergent Universe arc must be canon to ensure that they definitely escaped from that universe for C'rizz to depart in this one, meaning that up until at least Terror Firma definitely happened. At this point it is only fair to assume that it is the adventures that Big Finish released at the time that would be the equivalent to, say, Season 24 of the TV show, where the 7th Doctor appears in Time and the Rani and Mel leaves in Dragonfire - it's the sequence of stories that we were given at the time that clearly "matter" (I hope that's the right word to use here), therefore all the other stories up until Absolution will have influenced Charley/C'rizz as characters and people, therefore they should be assumed to have happened. The reason this is different to saying, "the Doctor is canon, therefore all stories featuring the Doctor are canon," is that their Big Finish stories could continue to be ignored unless he (the Doctor) directly mentions those events as having happened. If no mention is made, there is nothing to suggest that they happened. Non-canon until proven canon, as it were 5/6/7's stories have not been mentioned, therefore they haven't happened unless there is something (a companion, for example) to prove that they did. I hope that's cleared things up? It's not very easy to explain in written words (if we could all talk in person this would be much easier ). Actually, that cleared things up surprisingly well! I totally see where you're coming from now. I do still think you could probably pick out stories featuring Charley, for example, that aren't explicitly referenced by other stories and say that they're non-canon (the fact that a story references the events with the R101 doesn't confirm that that story is canon, it only confirms that Storm Warning is canon), but you make a convincing argument in saying that they can be assumed to have happened since they all influence the characters. I've also realised a flaw in my original post, in that since all Big Finish stories are written from the assumption that all previous Big Finish stories are canon, whereas most TV stories are not, the canonicity of Big Finish stories ought to imply the canonicity of other Big Finish stories in a way that TV stories don't, so there's certainly a difference between Charley and the Doctor in that respect. I'm glad my explanation was clear (I was a bit worried it was a little messy) True, you could probably hand pick the odd story that didn't really impact the story arc, but that would have entailed a really huge amount of sifting, and even I didn't/don't have the time (or necessarily the patience) for that Regarding referencing the R101 (for example), if that event is definitely canon, I thought it would at least create a wider net of Big Finish releases that we could call canon if we allowed those stories that do reference it to "count" too ( Churchill Years episode I Was Churchill's Double being a good example). If the story references a canonical event within Big Finish's own material, I don't see why we can't just slyly assume it's "real" too
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Post by hamsterexastris on Mar 21, 2018 3:00:24 GMT
And another separate focus for UNIT: The New Series. UNIT: Assembled name checks several characters, including Elisabeth Klein, thus canonising this series (this additionally canonises Companion Chronicle 7.12 Council of War where Benton meets his future wife, Margery). As Josh needs to obtain his plastic skeleton from UNIT: Extinction, this series must also be canon. Osgood recalls her trip to the Gobi desert during 2.2. Death in Geneva of UNIT: Shutdown, so this series is also canon. Colonel Shindi is still recovering from his injury in 1.4. Armageddon in UNIT: Silenced, and Josh's plasticness has a plot effect in 5.2. Invocation of UNIT: Encounters. And, given UNIT: Cyber Reality is a continuation of the plot thread of Encounters, that, too, must be canon. ... Young Winston (features Madame Vastra, mentioned in Jago & Litefoot & Strax [referenced as "CY 2.1"]) Why do you need to run through all that piecemeal logic for UNIT? I would have thought that you'd need to include the entire series by including any of it, similar to the same logic as Gallifrey.Also, I don't think that your logic for including Young Winston makes sense - if Vastra were an original creation, sure, but she's part of the TV show...
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 21, 2018 3:26:02 GMT
And another separate focus for UNIT: The New Series. UNIT: Assembled name checks several characters, including Elisabeth Klein, thus canonising this series (this additionally canonises Companion Chronicle 7.12 Council of War where Benton meets his future wife, Margery). As Josh needs to obtain his plastic skeleton from UNIT: Extinction, this series must also be canon. Osgood recalls her trip to the Gobi desert during 2.2. Death in Geneva of UNIT: Shutdown, so this series is also canon. Colonel Shindi is still recovering from his injury in 1.4. Armageddon in UNIT: Silenced, and Josh's plasticness has a plot effect in 5.2. Invocation of UNIT: Encounters. And, given UNIT: Cyber Reality is a continuation of the plot thread of Encounters, that, too, must be canon. ... Young Winston (features Madame Vastra, mentioned in Jago & Litefoot & Strax [referenced as "CY 2.1"]) Why do you need to run through all that piecemeal logic for UNIT? I would have thought that you'd need to include the entire series by including any of it, similar to the same logic as Gallifrey.Also, I don't think that your logic for including Young Winston makes sense - if Vastra were an original creation, sure, but she's part of the TV show... Gallifrey is an ongoing series, whereas UNIT could feasibly be argued to be stand alone entries. Either way, they're canon. Vastra was referenced within a canon Big Finish story, therefore, following the logic of everything else, this too should be canon. She exists within the Big Finish branch of the canon, so her appearances in Big Finish stories should be canonising. I can put a 'contended' at the end f that one if you want me to, but I don't think it's all that necessary.
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