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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 25, 2018 14:33:50 GMT
A valid question I think, and outside Rob Shearman, and Paul Cornell, who doesn't count because he got there on his NA rep, there aren't any. I ask this via a lot of assumptions.
Assumption 1. BF's output has been consistently higher than that of the TV series since the 2005 return date. Arguable but for me true.
Assumption 2. Cardiff has to approve every single script that BF produce.
Assumption 3. Cardiff is therefore seeing the quality of BF's material and are still choosing to make things like "Kill the Moon".
Assumption 4. Yes, Audio and TV scripts are different beasts, but if I was seeing some of BF's material I'd be saying "we need this person to do a story NEXT season, see if they can write for TV.
So, am I mad? What the hell are they thinking down there?
And even RTD has said he regrets not getting Briggsy to write a Dalek story. That needs to happen.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 25, 2018 14:45:19 GMT
Audio and TV scripts are different beasts This is part of it, I'm sure. I get the impression that having a combined producer-script editor in the form of the showrunner means that there's not a person who can put the time into shaping an inexperienced television writer's work. Also, Chris Chibnal seems to have had a *personal* wish-list of people that he's worked to, rather than looking inside the DW box.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 25, 2018 14:57:29 GMT
Audio and TV scripts are different beasts This is part of it, I'm sure. I get the impression that having a combined producer-script editor in the form of the showrunner means that there's not a person who can put the time into shaping an inexperienced television writer's work. Also, Chris Chibnal seems to have had a *personal* wish-list of people that he's worked to, rather than looking inside the DW box. Hence my comment on the next series. I'm tempted to think that if John Dorney got a message saying "We really like your work, can you put in the prep to learn how to do this for TV by 2019 and we'll consider you", he'd go and do just that. Just using Dorney as a go to for who I think is a good writer. And frankly even the argument that Audio and TV are different beasts isn't good enough. There are plenty of shows by writers for TV that are just not up to scratch. And RTD and Moffat themselves wrote some of those! And then the stunt writing. Neil Gaiman for instance. Less of that please. "The Doctor's Wife" had some charm, "Nightmare in Silver" was s**t. But Gaiman's name was there so...and so on.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Mar 25, 2018 15:06:39 GMT
I'm extremely surprised that so few BF writers haven't been asked to either adapt their BF scripts, or write new ones. And, you also have the situation were BBC novels are released, with the current tv Doctor, and none of those have been adapted. One can understand not having a Peter Davison script adapted for, say, the 12th Doctor. Because the subject matter may not fit, but still.
Perhaps, someone who has read the novels could start a new thread suggesting which ones would have made good tv episodes?
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Post by thethirddoctor on Mar 25, 2018 15:11:03 GMT
Audio and TV scripts are different beasts... A good story, is still a good story. That's what Script Editors were originally for.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 25, 2018 15:19:49 GMT
Audio and TV scripts are different beasts... A good story, is still a good story. That's what Script Editors were originally for. A good story is a good story but the translation to different mediums can be a tricky thing and not as simple as one might think. On topic, I think Big Finish employs some fantastic writers that I have no doubt could write some cracking TV Who. And if perhaps Doctor Who wasn't such a huge thing and a worldwide hit, Chibnall, and Moffat before him, would have felt comfortable handing over an episode to an inexperienced film & TV writer but Who is this huge thing now, so that willingness to roll the rice on an unknown quality within the field isn't there. Especially now where Who is reducing its episode output, Chibnall is sticking with known qualities in his sphere. And honestly, that makes sense to me.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Mar 25, 2018 15:28:56 GMT
A good story, is still a good story. That's what Script Editors were originally for. A good story is a good story but the translation to different mediums can be a tricky thing and not as simple as one might think. On topic, I think Big Finish employs some fantastic writers that I have no doubt could write some cracking TV Who. And if perhaps Doctor Who wasn't such a huge thing and a worldwide hit, Chibnall, and Moffat before him, would have felt comfortable handing over an episode to an inexperienced film & TV writer but Who is this huge thing now, so that willingness to roll the rice on an unknown quality within the field isn't there. Especially now where Who is reducing its episode output, Chibnall is sticking with known qualities in his sphere. And honestly, that makes sense to me. I'd debate whether NuWho is more of a worldwide hit than Classic Who. Classic Who still took the time to actively seek new writers, and help them. One reason I feel that they don't look for new writers is ego. The Showrunner has so much power. He writes the majority (I can't speak for Chibnall cause nobody knows), commissions the others, and re-writes if necessary. Where are the other creatives in the Production team. The other Execs/Producers and Script Editors don't write. At the current set up they don't have the time or patience to help new writers. Shame.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 25, 2018 15:39:55 GMT
I would say that if you dig into viewership numbers, advertising numbers & merchandise, there is no debate that NuWho is much more popular worldwide than classic ever was. And as debates go, who cares? A popular Doctor Who is good for every Doctor Who fan.
And in the pressure cooker atmosphere of a popular TV series, I would argue it is less about ego and more about comfort level and/or proven commodities. Richard Curtis is a known commodity that the show can market and hype. Same thing with Neil Gaimen. Or Neil Cross. Sadly, John Dorney, Nick Briggs or Matt Fitton are not. So yeah, all three would probably turn in great scripts but that isn't how it often plays out. I would also agree with that the power structure the show has developed since its return could use a bit of fine tuning. That far too much responsibility rests with the "Showrunner." It is why CC talking about setting up an American style writers room for the show held such interest to me. Anyway.
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Mar 25, 2018 16:00:56 GMT
Writing for TV is very different from writing for audio. The sitting down and telling the best story is largely the same (though with an emphasis on show not tell) but the processes involved in TV are (at least in my experience) far more protracted, time consuming and go through many more layers of pitches, re-pitches, meetings, checks, discussions, approvals... there are also a few extra technical things you need to think about - but also some radio techniques you can set aside. Big Finish has many of those same processes but far fewer than I've seen in TV. Some contunuous shows (say, Casualty or Corrie) have storylining pools who plan out storylines up to 18 months in advance which then go through layers of checks from producer, story editor, writers, script editors... the days when a script editor like Robert Holmes shaped the season are largely gone (though I'm sure some shows will still work that way). The bigger the show, the more people who will want a say on it.
Having said all of that, if I was magically given the keys to the kingdom of Doctor Who, I'd be knocking on Big Finish's door for the email addresses of at least half a dozen of their writers. They have a very long list of writers who I think could do great things on TV.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 25, 2018 18:28:15 GMT
Having said all of that, if I was magically given the keys to the kingdom of Doctor Who, I'd be knocking on Big Finish's door for the email addresses of at least half a dozen of their writers. They have a very long list of writers who I think could do great things on TV. That's my point. They have to approve Who stories by all of these writers. How are they not saying "This is damn good, can this person do TV? Well maybe for next series then with some encouragement." Anyway.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Mar 25, 2018 19:13:10 GMT
Having said all of that, if I was magically given the keys to the kingdom of Doctor Who, I'd be knocking on Big Finish's door for the email addresses of at least half a dozen of their writers. They have a very long list of writers who I think could do great things on TV. That's my point. They have to approve Who stories by all of these writers. How are they not saying "This is damn good, can this person do TV? Well maybe for next series then with some encouragement." Anyway. Why can't an established writer adapt it for tv?
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 25, 2018 19:19:21 GMT
Why can't an established writer adapt it for tv? Because it's a lot cheaper to get the established writer to write something original, and leave the other guy out of it.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Mar 25, 2018 20:08:09 GMT
Why can't an established writer adapt it for tv? Because it's a lot cheaper to get the established writer to write something original, and leave the other guy out of it. Don't know if that is true.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 25, 2018 20:23:26 GMT
Because it's a lot cheaper to get the established writer to write something original, and leave the other guy out of it. Don't know if that is true. Yes we do. A already established writer is going to be a more expensive writer than a non established writer by virtue of already being established and then you compound the expense by purchasing the idea from the non established writer for the established writer to adapt.
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Post by glutamodo on Mar 25, 2018 20:58:59 GMT
I'd like to know just who at the BBC vets the BF material. I can't see The Showrunner doing it, so is it some intern given a list of things "to look out for" and if they find something on that list, it gets flagged for the higher ups to look at? And do they pore over the actual scripts or just summaries/outlines?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 25, 2018 21:23:26 GMT
I'd like to know just who at the BBC vets the BF material. I can't see The Showrunner doing it, so is it some intern given a list of things "to look out for" and if they find something on that list, it gets flagged for the higher ups to look at? And do they pore over the actual scripts or just summaries/outlines? Based on comments Nick & Jason have made in the past we know the approval process is a multi-tiered one that each title has to go through. How high up the production team food chain that process goes, I have no idea. I would love a podcast which takes a title from pitch through approval and through production & edits to give us a real feel for the ins and outs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2018 2:07:26 GMT
This is part of it, I'm sure. I get the impression that having a combined producer-script editor in the form of the showrunner means that there's not a person who can put the time into shaping an inexperienced television writer's work. Also, Chris Chibnal seems to have had a *personal* wish-list of people that he's worked to, rather than looking inside the DW box. "The Doctor's Wife" had some charm, "Nightmare in Silver" was s**t. But Gaiman's name was there so...and so on.
I remember reading somewhere that Neil Gaiman wants to novelsie Nightmare in Silver from his original two part treatment, which suggests there might have been behind the scenes issues going on.
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Post by jasonward on Mar 26, 2018 4:39:41 GMT
I'd like to know just who at the BBC vets the BF material. I can't see The Showrunner doing it, so is it some intern given a list of things "to look out for" and if they find something on that list, it gets flagged for the higher ups to look at? And do they pore over the actual scripts or just summaries/outlines? From what I recall Nick saying, it's somewhat dependant on the show runner, with RTD there were blanket bans on various monsters, subject areas etc whereas with Moffat BF were given a much freer hand.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 26, 2018 9:32:06 GMT
I already did a whole thread on the subject of why BF writers aren't on NuWho (with backup from Johnny Morris), and had a few rows with maulporris on it: notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/thread/2210/johnathan-morris-explains-writers-nuwhoHere's one of my posts on why: 1) It's not about progression, but experience. Most of BF's staff are novelists, comic writers or non fiction authors, with little to no TV experience. Production companies and broadcasters won't consider non-screenwriters for projects most times without a track record of some sort. And then there´s the five tons of legal red tape involving solicited submissions and agents, but that would take all day. 2) Competition: compare the two or three dozen BF regulars that we all want to see on the show versus the thousands of UK TV writers who all want to write for Who and have likely pitched for it multiple times. As a showrunner and script editor with superiors and executives to answer to, are you more likely to gamble on novices in this particular field, or go with someone experienced, who can be trusted to meet a deadline and not need potentially time consuming handholding (this is not about who is more talented, but again, experience and dependability)? 3) Schedules: it's no secret that BF make their stuff months before they are even announced, meaning they have to contract writers for however many stories/series they need, which affects how much spare time they have and when they are free (in addition to sometimes doubling up as actors, script editors, directors and producers, as well as outside projects). Same goes for the TV series: Series 10 is nearly all in the can and I imagine Series 11 has most of, if not all, of its staff and stories locked down, so even if they wanted to, Dorney or Morris or Magrs or Smith or whoever you'd want may or would not be able to contribute at this point.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 26, 2018 9:37:15 GMT
Also from the thread:
Maybe they just don't want to. Maybe BF writers have been approached before and said no, or don't feel writing for the TV series would be beneficial to their careers. Maybe they feel working on their next original novel or play is more worthwhile than the pressures of scripting for a prime time global series. Maybe they don't like or agree with Moffat or Chibnail's vision, and feel BF is more up their alley. Maybe they don't want a career path into TV. Maybe it's even more personal: perhaps Platt feels he's too old to write for the series, or Smith was burnt out by his early attempts at a TV writing career and doesn't want to go through it again, for example.
And furthermore, aztec sort of provides another possible theory on the question of BF writers not moving to NuWho: it's not impossible to also imagine the Beeb don't want a corssing of gene pools, lest they fear The Writer's Guild and others start accusing them of favouritisim. 'Oh, I write x number of soaps and daytime TV, but a guy who's never done that, and writes books and audios instead, gets chosen over me!'
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