lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Mar 29, 2018 12:00:07 GMT
Seven really needs to get a break from Ace. No disrespect to the character or the actress, but she is seriously overused in Seven's stories. It is possible to have too much of a good thing and the law of diminishing returns applies here.
Even when Seven gets a new companion, it is still "Ace and ..", e.g. Ace and Hex, Ace and Raine, Ace and Benny, Ace and Mel. The only standalone companions Seven has had are Roz, Chris and Klein, and even then Ace was in Klein's first story.
I am not anti-Ace or anti-Sophie in any way, but Seven needs a break from her.
The same could be said for Five and Nyssa - give him a break from her, please.
The most popular of the main range doctors is Six - is it coincidence that he has had the most variety of companions?
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Post by chrism1999 on Mar 29, 2018 14:03:56 GMT
So what I gather from that, is that we don't actually know that Mel and/or Ace will be leaving soon, and this is all wild mass guessing?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 18:00:15 GMT
Seven really needs to get a break from Ace. No disrespect to the character or the actress, but she is seriously overused in Seven's stories. It is possible to have too much of a good thing and the law of diminishing returns applies here. ^ Agree with this 100%.
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Post by constonks on Mar 29, 2018 18:24:57 GMT
Seven really needs to get a break from Ace. [...] The same could be said for Five and Nyssa - give him a break from her, please. Absolutely. I'm happy to see more Nyssa and Ace outside of their time with Five & Seven (and I like both characters!), but I'd love to see something different for both!
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 29, 2018 19:11:54 GMT
The problem with the Seventh Doctor, Ace and Mel stories is that there isn't any direction or long term goal. Characterization fluctuates to suit the story the writer wants to tell, but overall there isn't a cohesive story or character arc in sight. Despite this being post-Hex it's a very season 25/26 Ace, and Mel still seems like the young woman from Pease Pottage. I don't mind stories with this crew, but some narrative direction and consistency in the characterization would be much appreciated. Look at what's going on with the Sixth Doctor, Constance and Flip. Look at Silurian Candidate. The Doctor isn't letting anyone in on his plan (which really doesn't warrant the secrecy he attaches to it, it just makes things harder), Ace is once again fed up and wants him to know it, while Mel is sort of just there. The writer tries to have her reflecting on how she may be the heart in the team, but it doesn't go anywhere. Agree 100%
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 29, 2018 19:12:42 GMT
So what I gather from that, is that we don't actually know that Mel and/or Ace will be leaving soon, and this is all wild mass guessing? I think this is correct.
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Post by omega on Mar 29, 2018 20:27:24 GMT
Seven really needs to get a break from Ace. [...] The same could be said for Five and Nyssa - give him a break from her, please. Absolutely. I'm happy to see more Nyssa and Ace outside of their time with Five & Seven (and I like both characters!), but I'd love to see something different for both! With the Fifth Doctor there's the season 21 team of Tegan and Turlough who haven't been in a full cast (also a chance for Kamelion, easiest recast ever) and for the Seventh Doctor there's Raine or Chris and Roz. The latter has proved popular with many requests for original stories featuring the pair.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 23:40:58 GMT
Eh, I'd argue it's been fairly prenounced since A Life in Crime. Seven's VERY much been trying to be The Doctor he was to Mel and he can't be as part of reconciling his identity post-Hex. He knows, unlike Ace, she's going to call him out on his actions. I don't think Seven's head is really in a good place right now - Hex's death weighs high upon him and he left Hex and Sally to their lives without a farewell because he didn't want to face the fallout. He's trying to get back to where he was with Ace when he wasn't lost in his machinations - and he can't and is leaning very much into his manipulative tendancies in doing so. She's an adult (albeit not a well-functioning one), he's made her too dependent on him and he needs to respect and enable her autonomy. Finding Mel and having her as his companion is him trying to reach for a clean-slate before his mistakes, one he defiantly hasn't earnt, but Mel isn't that person anymore. She isn't Hex - a sweet naïve compassionate man in search of a Father figure. Her eyes are opened to the universe, she's more self-assured and she isn't going to blindly follow him or not question him and resents him expecting it of, especially after Glitz, she's gone through the fire for what she believes and came out of it, unlike Seven, even when she agrees with him (Fiestia of the Damned) and while TV and BF Mel would have been horrified by the end result of Stuart's deal with the antagonists of The Blood Furnance, I don't think she would have condemened Stuart's actions the way she did and held him accountable. Seven taking on Mel as his companion also strikes me as being VERY self-destructive move on Seven's part and that he still hasn't dealt with what his machinations did to Hex and is self-sabotaging himself.
Seven sees Mel as an easy fix for all his problems - an adult who will guide Ace to healthier decisions and help become a functional adult (like Hex did), rather then facing his problems - and someone to act as his moral compass, which is messed up, because Mel has issues of her own. She left a terrible relationship that she stayed in for years to try to undo the damage Glitz selfishly inflicted on the universe (which is also VERY revealing to how Seven currently sees himself) and saw her second term in the TARDIS as a way of reconciling her actions and getting back her sense of self and stability. Seven still sees his friends as game pieces, which is deeply messed up. Mel deserves better then that and she knows it. Mel's got her own issues, her own set code and her own sense of self - she's not somone in search of a parental figure - and she ain't going to be in that TARDIS for long. People aren't obligated to stick around just because of the mess a person's made when it becomes toxic and harmful. And Seven at this point, IS toxic and harmful to those around him. And Mel is now self-assured that she's defiantly on the outs. (Just as Hex was in the end)
TV Movie or not, Ace leaving the TARDIS is something Big Finish has been circling around for more then a decade now. Ace hasn't formed long-term connections with people her own age since The Lost Stories and Hex was a MUCH healthier relationship then Raine. And as much as I love Hex, sweet, naïve compassionate, Hex and while his presence defiantly had her question The Doctor and opened the cracks, Hex wasn't the guy to get Ace out of the TARDIS. He clearly saw The Doctor as a Father figure and that was defiantly something Seven was guiding him towards and played upon, which re-enforced Ace's relationshipwith The Doctor and when push comes to shove, he wasn't going to be thhe guy to shake up Ace's worldview.
Mel? Mel's different. Ace met her when she was seventeen and despite the brevity of their meeting, she was an adult who took intrest her. Who LIKED her for her. There's her prior relationship with The Doctor as well and Ace is clearly expressing some resentment towards Seven (Why did he manipulate me and not you?) and pushing agasint The Doctor's machinations in The Silurian Candiate with the seams of Seven and Ace's relationship have begun to unravel in light of Mel's return. And Ace can relate to just how messed up to have someone you loved who you trusted to take care you - let you down with both her Mother and The Doctor. They have that common ground between them and the experience of hardship and making the best of a bad situation. Yes, at the moment she's defiantly wrestling with her conception of Mel and what that means for her and whether or not she'll break through it in time during Mel's second term in the TARDIS remains to be seen. Both Seven and Ace have been in deep denial since leaving Hex about their relationship, after all. But with Seven slipping back into is typical modus operadi, Mel isn't going to stand for it and in some capacity, it's going to bring Ace's feelings towards The Doctor to the fore.
Seven and Ace, despite wanting to, can't go on as they are. Hex's death was the spark and Mel's return is the flame. And Ace KNOWS this, as much as she's fighting agasint it.
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Post by omega on Mar 30, 2018 0:05:11 GMT
You're reading into something that isn't there. The main motivation for the Seventh, Ace and Mel stories, at least thus far, has been because Sylvester, Sophie and Bonnie enjoy recording together. There's been no story arcs, character arcs or consistent characterisation. Ace has regressed to her season 25 characterization, a far cry from how she was developed with Hex around. It's feels like these stories are what would have happened if Mel didn't leave in Dragonfire, but stayed on with the Doctor and Ace.
If you're after a set of stories hinting towards the endgame for a TARDIS team, look at Sixie, Constance and Flip. There's actual character development and progression, unlike with Seven, Ace and Mel.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 30, 2018 1:16:14 GMT
You're reading into something that isn't there. The main motivation for the Seventh, Ace and Mel stories, at least thus far, has been because Sylvester, Sophie and Bonnie enjoy recording together. There's been no story arcs, character arcs or consistent characterisation. Ace has regressed to her season 25 characterization, a far cry from how she was developed with Hex around. It's feels like these stories are what would have happened if Mel didn't leave in Dragonfire, but stayed on with the Doctor and Ace. If you're after a set of stories hinting towards the endgame for a TARDIS team, look at Sixie, Constance and Flip. There's actual character development and progression, unlike with Seven, Ace and Mel. I got halfway through your message and was getting ready to bring up Sixie, Connie and Flip myself. Guess I don’t need to. i haven’t actually listened to any of these Seven, Ace and Mel Stories, but from what I’ve heard about them, they seem to exist for the same reason the Older Nyssa Stories did. To get as many of the actors in at once as they can, rather than having to switch between them every other year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 1:27:48 GMT
You're reading into something that isn't there. The main motivation for the Seventh, Ace and Mel stories, at least thus far, has been because Sylvester, Sophie and Bonnie enjoy recording together. There's been no story arcs, character arcs or consistent characterisation. Ace has regressed to her season 25 characterization, a far cry from how she was developed with Hex around. It's feels like these stories are what would have happened if Mel didn't leave in Dragonfire, but stayed on with the Doctor and Ace. If you're after a set of stories hinting towards the endgame for a TARDIS team, look at Sixie, Constance and Flip. There's actual character development and progression, unlike with Seven, Ace and Mel. I got halfway through your message and was getting ready to bring up Sixie, Connie and Flip myself. Guess I don’t need to. i haven’t actually listened to any of these Seven, Ace and Mel Stories, but from what I’ve heard about them, they seem to exist for the same reason the Older Nyssa Stories did. To get as many of the actors in at once as they can, rather than having to switch between them every other year. Trust me, they are fantastic stories It's the beginning of Seven's slow emergence from the darkness into the light, Mel, as I said, get's some great development and her autonmy is a HUGE part of the arc, we get a very intresting exploration of Ace post-Hex and the stories take the audacious creative gambit of being very Season 24 with overshadowed melancholic darkness that pays off beautifully.
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Post by omega on Mar 30, 2018 1:46:23 GMT
I got halfway through your message and was getting ready to bring up Sixie, Connie and Flip myself. Guess I don’t need to. i haven’t actually listened to any of these Seven, Ace and Mel Stories, but from what I’ve heard about them, they seem to exist for the same reason the Older Nyssa Stories did. To get as many of the actors in at once as they can, rather than having to switch between them every other year. Trust me, they are fantastic stories It's the beginning of Seven's slow emergence from the darkness into the light, Mel, as I said, get's some great development and her autonmy is a HUGE part of the arc, we get a very intresting exploration of Ace post-Hex and the stories take the audacious creative gambit of being very Season 24 with overshadowed melancholic darkness that pays off beautifully. I respectfully disagree. In The Silurian Candidate, the most recent story for this team, the Doctor keeps Ace and Mel in the dark for no good reason, Ace gets fed up and Mel decrypts a video file. That's the extent of her contribution to the plot. She also is terrorised by Silurians and an appallingly one dimensionally written and acted character clearly based on Donald Trump (there's not much for the poor actor to work with). From that trilogy, High Price of Parking is very season 24 (Ace is inciting revolution and chucking bombs), while Blood Furnace brings out that same Ace and gives Mel the tired old cliche of an old flame who hasn't been mentioned before and never will again be mentioned. It's happened with Tegan and Turlough on separate occasions, at least twice with Tegan (one was a Lost Story and the other was justified by the plot). {Spoiler} The Doctor plans to negotiate with the Silurian Triad that they set the snooze button on their wake up calls so that they wake after humanity has left Earth during the ravaging of the solar flares, Silurans and humans being on more even ground when it comes to claiming the Earth. When pressed, he tells Ace only that he intends to give the Silurians the Earth. Naturally she thinks this is a terrible plan so in the last episode she locks the Doctor in a room, confiscating his screwdriver and confronts who she believes to the titular candidate (who is armed to explode, which the Silurians will use to trigger a nuclear war to provide enough energy to wake all the Silurians up). Meanwhile Mel spends the second half running from Australian Trump.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 2:06:03 GMT
Trust me, they are fantastic stories It's the beginning of Seven's slow emergence from the darkness into the light, Mel, as I said, get's some great development and her autonmy is a HUGE part of the arc, we get a very intresting exploration of Ace post-Hex and the stories take the audacious creative gambit of being very Season 24 with overshadowed melancholic darkness that pays off beautifully. I respectfully disagree. In The Silurian Candidate, the most recent story for this team, the Doctor keeps Ace and Mel in the dark for no good reason, Ace gets fed up and Mel decrypts a video file. That's the extent of her contribution to the plot. She also is terrorised by Silurians and an appallingly one dimensionally written and acted character clearly based on Donald Trump (there's not much for the poor actor to work with). From that trilogy, High Price of Parking is very season 24 (Ace is inciting revolution and chucking bombs), while Blood Furnace brings out that same Ace and gives Mel the tired old cliche of an old flame who hasn't been mentioned before and never will again be mentioned. It's happened with Tegan and Turlough on separate occasions, at least twice with Tegan (one was a Lost Story and the other was justified by the plot). {Spoiler} The Doctor plans to negotiate with the Silurian Triad that they set the snooze button on their wake up calls so that they wake after humanity has left Earth during the ravaging of the solar flares, Silurans and humans being on more even ground when it comes to claiming the Earth. When pressed, he tells Ace only that he intends to give the Silurians the Earth. Naturally she thinks this is a terrible plan so in the last episode she locks the Doctor in a room, confiscating his screwdriver and confronts who she believes to the titular candidate (who is armed to explode, which the Silurians will use to trigger a nuclear war to provide enough energy to wake all the Silurians up). Meanwhile Mel spends the second half running from Australian Trump. I see it more as Seven not really knowing what he's doing and how he's forgotten himself. He expects Ace to know there's more to it, and he's forgetting what his machinations have cost them and how she'd react (again, self-sabotaging a relationship). Ace's extreme reaction also highlights that she's still not dealing with Hex's absence. Mel being kidnapped by the Silurians and having her resolve tested was expanding upon her arc and Mel being in the story, challenging The Doctor's modus operadi was a HUGE part of the story. And while Big Finish only seem to conceptually understand an Australian accent (may they do better with New Zealand), I thought it was a nice bit of Seventh Doctor era humour with how Silurians see humans and a particularly funny twist. I laughed quite a bit I did think The Silurian Canditate was the weaker story of the recent triolgey and it was patchy at points, despite some great ideas, but I've found the rest of the stories to be exemperly. Having someone from Mel's past was a good way to highlight how she'd changed and how she might have compromised if she'd stayed in a relationship with Stuart and never travelled with The Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 5:23:23 GMT
You're reading into something that isn't there. The main motivation for the Seventh, Ace and Mel stories, at least thus far, has been because Sylvester, Sophie and Bonnie enjoy recording together. There's been no story arcs, character arcs or consistent characterisation. Ace has regressed to her season 25 characterization, a far cry from how she was developed with Hex around. It's feels like these stories are what would have happened if Mel didn't leave in Dragonfire, but stayed on with the Doctor and Ace. If you're after a set of stories hinting towards the endgame for a TARDIS team, look at Sixie, Constance and Flip. There's actual character development and progression, unlike with Seven, Ace and Mel. I got halfway through your message and was getting ready to bring up Sixie, Connie and Flip myself. Guess I don’t need to. i haven’t actually listened to any of these Seven, Ace and Mel Stories, but from what I’ve heard about them, they seem to exist for the same reason the Older Nyssa Stories did. To get as many of the actors in at once as they can, rather than having to switch between them every other year. I never felt that way about the older Nyssa stories. To me, it always struck me as Big Finish refusing to play things safe and to create a new era, a further shadow over Five's actions in Ressurection of The Daleks and Planet of Fire and to add to Caves of Androzani, as well as making Tegan and Turlough's relationship more organic and continuing and validating Nyssa's prior development by Big Finish. I'd like to have some more of the Ricticus plague play in the arc, but I was all in all, very satisified and felt that The Entropy Plague was a better send-off for Nyssa then Terminus.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 6:24:00 GMT
Ace has regressed to her season 25 characterization, a far cry from how she was developed with Hex around. It strikes me more as a deliberate creative decision. Ace has regressed due to Hex's forced exit from the TARDIS. Seven, as I said, wasn't helping Ace become a stable actual adult - and Hex was the first person, where she started to become an actual adult (epitimiosed in both A Death in the Family and Afterlife). Ace's sibling relationship with Hex to me always struck me as her compartimising her feelings about Liam and her Father's abandonment and her feelings about The Doctor's machinations with her Mother's neglect. Hex's death brought those feelings to fore and Hex's return in the form of Hector, Hex with none of the painful memories and sense of self warped, was a way for her to supress those feelings and continue on. But Hex - whole and complete - moving on past the TARDIS meant dealing with the fallout of Seven's machinations. About what it meant for her sense of self and dealing with the pain Seven had inflicted upon her life. Of potentially losing the only real support system she's ever known and reliasing it's no longer viable for her. It's why Ace either can't or doesn't want to see Hex moving on with his life. And both Seven and Ace are deep in denial about what that means for their relationship. And Ace's regression has been brought up in the stories - Mel's visibly annoyed by how childish Ace acts at times ( Maker of Demons and The High Price of Parking) and ignoring her experiences and reliases that The Doctor's way of handling situations has affected her development ( The Sontaran Canditate). Mel reliasing that The Doctor is using her as his moral compass is a direct reference how taking on Hex as a companion affected Seven's actions.
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Post by omega on Apr 1, 2018 6:45:36 GMT
Ace has regressed to her season 25 characterization, a far cry from how she was developed with Hex around. It strikes me more as a deliberate creative decision. Ace has regressed due to Hex's forced exit from the TARDIS. Seven, as I said, wasn't helping Ace become a stable actual adult - and Hex was the first person, where she started to become an actual adult (epitimiosed in both A Death in the Family and Afterlife). Ace's sibling relationship with Hex to me always struck me as her compartimising her feelings about Liam and her Father's abandonment and her feelings about The Doctor's machinations with her Mother's neglect. Hex's death brought those feelings to fore and Hex's return in the form of Hector, Hex with none of the painful memories and sense of self warped, was a way for her to supress those feelings and continue on. But Hex - whole and complete - moving on past the TARDIS meant dealing with the fallout of Seven's machinations. About what it meant for her sense of self and dealing with the pain Seven had inflicted upon her life. Of potentially losing the only real support system she's ever known and reliasing it's no longer viable for her. It's why Ace either can't or doesn't want to see Hex moving on with his life. And both Seven and Ace are deep in denial about what that means for their relationship. And Ace's regression has been brought up in the stories - Mel's visibly annoyed by how childish Ace acts at times ( Maker of Demons and The High Price of Parking) and ignoring her experiences and reliases that The Doctor's way of handling situations has affected her development ( The Sontaran Canditate). Mel reliasing that The Doctor is using her as his moral compass is a direct reference how taking on Hex as a companion affected Seven's actions. At the end of Signs and Wonders, after they visit Hex a few years after he's left the TARDIS, Ace is a lot more mature than she is in the stories with Mel, which follow. As for the Doctor deliberately bringing Mel back on board, that's the TARDIS more than anything the Doctor did. All the stories in You are the Doctor are the TARDIS following Mel's trail, leading to A Life of Crime where she returns because a) she's got creditors on her tail (that no good Glitz) and b) the Doctor and Ace have no reason to deny her entry. The Doctor realises that the TARDIS was following Mel by the last story in the anthology, but didn't fight the TARDIS on it. What you're reading into is far more likely accidental subtext rather than anything intentional on the part of the writers.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Apr 1, 2018 7:26:03 GMT
I can't help but feel "the Doctor is stopping Ace from growing up" is the exact opposite of their TV relationship.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 7:26:12 GMT
It strikes me more as a deliberate creative decision. Ace has regressed due to Hex's forced exit from the TARDIS. Seven, as I said, wasn't helping Ace become a stable actual adult - and Hex was the first person, where she started to become an actual adult (epitimiosed in both A Death in the Family and Afterlife). Ace's sibling relationship with Hex to me always struck me as her compartimising her feelings about Liam and her Father's abandonment and her feelings about The Doctor's machinations with her Mother's neglect. Hex's death brought those feelings to fore and Hex's return in the form of Hector, Hex with none of the painful memories and sense of self warped, was a way for her to supress those feelings and continue on. But Hex - whole and complete - moving on past the TARDIS meant dealing with the fallout of Seven's machinations. About what it meant for her sense of self and dealing with the pain Seven had inflicted upon her life. Of potentially losing the only real support system she's ever known and reliasing it's no longer viable for her. It's why Ace either can't or doesn't want to see Hex moving on with his life. And both Seven and Ace are deep in denial about what that means for their relationship. And Ace's regression has been brought up in the stories - Mel's visibly annoyed by how childish Ace acts at times ( Maker of Demons and The High Price of Parking) and ignoring her experiences and reliases that The Doctor's way of handling situations has affected her development ( The Sontaran Canditate). Mel reliasing that The Doctor is using her as his moral compass is a direct reference how taking on Hex as a companion affected Seven's actions. At the end of Signs and Wonders, after they visit Hex a few years after he's left the TARDIS, Ace is a lot more mature than she is in the stories with Mel, which follow. As for the Doctor deliberately bringing Mel back on board, that's the TARDIS more than anything the Doctor did. All the stories in You are the Doctor are the TARDIS following Mel's trail, leading to A Life of Crime where she returns because a) she's got creditors on her tail (that no good Glitz) and b) the Doctor and Ace have no reason to deny her entry. The Doctor realises that the TARDIS was following Mel by the last story in the anthology, but didn't fight the TARDIS on it. What you're reading into is far more likely accidental subtext rather than anything intentional on the part of the writers. Neither Seven nor Ace actually interacted with Hex. They didn't want to face the fall out of Seven's actions. Hex had been pushed far enough (having your sense of self warped beyond recognition, however faint your memories of it are, will do that to you) and Hex would have tried to talk Ace into leaving the TARDIS. Hex, I'd imagine, would forgive The Doctor (Sally wouldn't), but he'd reached the end of his rope with The Doctor. He reliased that e'd had enough. And Seven and Ace ducking out on him made him reliase that even if he DID travel with them, he couldn't save them from themselves. And he's a Dad now as well and I don't think he'd want Seven's influence around his kids. People regress. It's a thing which happens and it struck me as actually pretty realistic for someone as messed up as Ace who hasn't formed long-term connections with people her own age and whose development has been affected by The Doctor. Losing Hex meant losing a lot of the maturity she'd gained in the Hex stories. Ace's 'adult' self was never particularly deep or layered. She's got nowhere else really to go. It's a direct follow through. Mel's shown to be perturbed by it. TARDIS or not, Seven still made the choice for her to return on board. Of course, he wasn't going to leave her to the creditors, but you have more then two reasons for doing something. Ace is deep in denial about it, not wanting to face that the same thing that happened to Hex, could happen to Mel (death or deciding to leave) but even that's begun to simmer under the surface with Ace pretty much warning Mel off in The Silurian Canditate and her relationship with Mel VERY much feels like her trying to emulate her relationship with Hex.
It's the same producer, with writers who have worked under the previous creative team. There not ignoring established contiunty by any means, what would be the point? The only reason Hex hasn't been mentionced by name is because Big Finish back in 2014 wanted to create new jumping on points for new listeners. The 2014 Season 24 triolgey and the beginning of the current arc in 2015 were designed as clear jumping on points. I imagine we'll see Hex in future Seventh Doctor stories at some point to introduce new listeners to him and re-enforce the arc, although probably not in the capacity of a companion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 7:42:59 GMT
I can't help but feel "the Doctor is stopping Ace from growing up" is the exact opposite of their TV relationship. It's a sad irony of The Doctor getting lost in his machinations and losing track of his personal development and believing he's given her freedom post- The Lost Stories. Ace herself voices it in A Death in the Family when she gives up her life with Henry for him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 11:03:37 GMT
Really looking forward to Nick Briggs being more heavily involved with the Seventh Doctor (and hope we get a script. I also hope he sleeps). Obviously, I'm in invested in everything Big Finish has done with Seven, but I love Nick's slightly more personable touch with Seven, the man weighed down by the responsibilities of the universe, while not ignoring the reprecussions of Seven's actions.
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