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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 12:48:22 GMT
So Dissected seems to be set close to Children of Earth and makes reference to a recent Torchwood work Christmas do that Martha missed. This must mean it’s set late November/December roughly, which in turn means Children of Earth is much later in 2009 than I’d put it before. Accordingly I’ve shuffled Children of Earth and other stories which occur in close proximity to it (The Devil and Miss Carew, Submission and Outbreak) to late 2009.
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Post by Whovitt on Feb 18, 2020 12:59:58 GMT
So Dissected seems to be set close to Children of Earth and makes reference to a recent Torchwood work Christmas do that Martha missed. This must mean it’s set late November/December roughly, which in turn means Children of Earth is much later in 2009 than I’d put it before. Accordingly I’ve shuffled Children of Earth and other stories which occur in close proximity to it ( The Devil and Miss Carew, Submission and Outbreak) to late 2009. I didn't get the impression that the Christmas do was "recent" as such, but then they seemed determined to be pretty vague about it all. I wouldn't put Children of Earth too soon after Dissected though, as Martha's supposed to be on her honeymoon in Day One. We should probably give her and Mickey an opportunity to actually get the relationship going
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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 13:09:01 GMT
So Dissected seems to be set close to Children of Earth and makes reference to a recent Torchwood work Christmas do that Martha missed. This must mean it’s set late November/December roughly, which in turn means Children of Earth is much later in 2009 than I’d put it before. Accordingly I’ve shuffled Children of Earth and other stories which occur in close proximity to it ( The Devil and Miss Carew, Submission and Outbreak) to late 2009. I didn't get the impression that the Christmas do was "recent" as such, but then they seemed determined to be pretty vague about it all. I wouldn't put Children of Earth too soon after Dissected though, as Martha's supposed to be on her honeymoon in Day One. We should probably give her and Mickey an opportunity to actually get the relationship going Oh true, I’d forgotten that. I kinda got the impression her break-up with Tom was recent, and as that occurred on the day of Christmas do apparently that makes it recent. Actually, thinking about it. Is there anything that explicitly places Children of Earth in 2009?
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Post by Whovitt on Feb 18, 2020 13:15:15 GMT
I didn't get the impression that the Christmas do was "recent" as such, but then they seemed determined to be pretty vague about it all. I wouldn't put Children of Earth too soon after Dissected though, as Martha's supposed to be on her honeymoon in Day One. We should probably give her and Mickey an opportunity to actually get the relationship going Oh true, I’d forgotten that. I kinda got the impression her break-up with Tom was recent, and as that occurred on the day of Christmas do apparently that makes it recent. Actually, thinking about it. Is there anything that explicitly places Children of Earth in 2009? Nothing I can think of that explicitly states it, no. The Doctor could have visited Jack in the bar at any point in Jack's personal timeline in The End of Time, as we saw him do with Rose. I haven't watched CoE in a while so I can't remember if there were any clearer details. Technically speaking, given the "one year ahead" thing established in Aliens of London, shouldn't CoE be set in 2010, the year after its original broadcast?
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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 13:25:14 GMT
Oh true, I’d forgotten that. I kinda got the impression her break-up with Tom was recent, and as that occurred on the day of Christmas do apparently that makes it recent. Actually, thinking about it. Is there anything that explicitly places Children of Earth in 2009? Nothing I can think of that explicitly states it, no. The Doctor could have visited Jack in the bar at any point in Jack's personal timeline in The End of Time, as we saw him do with Rose. I haven't watched CoE in a while so I can't remember if there were any clearer details. Technically speaking, given the "one year ahead" thing established in Aliens of London, shouldn't CoE be set in 2010, the year after its original broadcast? Just had a look and there doesn’t seem to be anything concrete putting Children of Earth in 2009. The TARDIS wiki seems fixated that it’s in September 2009 but I’m really not sure where they got that from. Maybe it’s on one of the documents seen on screen? So it could be possible to put Children of Earth in early 2010, which could potentially give Martha enough time to have a whirlwind romance with Mickey and decide to go on a honeymoon.
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Post by Whovitt on Feb 18, 2020 13:29:55 GMT
Nothing I can think of that explicitly states it, no. The Doctor could have visited Jack in the bar at any point in Jack's personal timeline in The End of Time, as we saw him do with Rose. I haven't watched CoE in a while so I can't remember if there were any clearer details. Technically speaking, given the "one year ahead" thing established in Aliens of London, shouldn't CoE be set in 2010, the year after its original broadcast? Just had a look and there doesn’t seem to be anything concrete putting Children of Earth in 2009. The TARDIS wiki seems fixated that it’s in September 2009 but I’m really not sure where they got that from. Maybe it’s on one of the documents seen on screen? So it could be possible to put Children of Earth in early 2010, which could potentially give Martha enough time to have a whirlwind romance with Mickey and decide to go on a honeymoon. There might be something that gives an indication of the time of year, if not the year itself. Daylight savings changes at different times in different countries. If anyone can be bother cross-referencing the times given in Day One of the children all reacting simultaneously, that might help narrow things down a little?
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Post by Ricky on Feb 18, 2020 13:31:13 GMT
Nothing I can think of that explicitly states it, no. The Doctor could have visited Jack in the bar at any point in Jack's personal timeline in The End of Time, as we saw him do with Rose. I haven't watched CoE in a while so I can't remember if there were any clearer details. Technically speaking, given the "one year ahead" thing established in Aliens of London, shouldn't CoE be set in 2010, the year after its original broadcast? Just had a look and there doesn’t seem to be anything concrete putting Children of Earth in 2009. The TARDIS wiki seems fixated that it’s in September 2009 but I’m really not sure where they got that from. Maybe it’s on one of the documents seen on screen? So it could be possible to put Children of Earth in early 2010, which could potentially give Martha enough time to have a whirlwind romance with Mickey and decide to go on a honeymoon. Ianto looks at a newspaper in the second episode, which is dated September 2009.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 13:40:58 GMT
Just had a look and there doesn’t seem to be anything concrete putting Children of Earth in 2009. The TARDIS wiki seems fixated that it’s in September 2009 but I’m really not sure where they got that from. Maybe it’s on one of the documents seen on screen? So it could be possible to put Children of Earth in early 2010, which could potentially give Martha enough time to have a whirlwind romance with Mickey and decide to go on a honeymoon. Ianto looks at a newspaper in the second episode, which is dated September 2009. Ah. Well that opens a fresh can of worms regarding Dissected then. Maybe Torchwood ironically had a Christmas do in summer then...which actually doesn’t sound that out of character.
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Post by Whovitt on Feb 18, 2020 13:44:21 GMT
I'm probably just forgetting something obvious, but what places Something Borrowed onwards in 2009? I would have just assumed they were in the same year as the start of the series, allowing for Tosh and Owen to be dead in 2008, then the Christmas party, then Dissected in early-ish 2009?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 18, 2020 14:00:46 GMT
I'm probably just forgetting something obvious, but what places Something Borrowed onwards in 2009? I would have just assumed they were in the same year as the start of the series, allowing for Tosh and Owen to be dead in 2008, then the Christmas party, then Dissected in early-ish 2009? Nothing. The Ianto flashback in Fragments would put Fragments and Exit Wounds in 2009 to make any sense, and you can’t explain it away like the Tosh and Owen flashbacks because the Battle of Canary Wharf has to happen in Spring/Summer 2007. I think the Ianto flashback is 21 months before Fragments which would put Fragments in early 2009. There’s no indication that Something Borrowed doesn’t happen in 2008 and there’s actually evidence in the novels that it takes place in Autumn 2008. Honestly I’m inclined to ignore the dating given in the flashback because it’s the only thing that actually indicates that Series 2 spills into 2009.
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Post by Whovitt on Feb 18, 2020 14:11:35 GMT
I'm probably just forgetting something obvious, but what places Something Borrowed onwards in 2009? I would have just assumed they were in the same year as the start of the series, allowing for Tosh and Owen to be dead in 2008, then the Christmas party, then Dissected in early-ish 2009? Nothing. The Ianto flashback in Fragments would put Fragments and Exit Wounds in 2009 to make any sense, and you can’t explain it away like the Tosh and Owen flashbacks because the Battle of Canary Wharf has to happen in Spring/Summer 2007. I think the Ianto flashback is 21 months before Fragments which would put Fragments in early 2009. There’s no indication that Something Borrowed doesn’t happen in 2008 and there’s actually evidence in the novels that it takes place in Autumn 2008. Honestly I’m inclined to ignore the rating given in the flashback because it’s the only thing that actually indicates that Series 2 spills into 2009. If we wanted to make things really, really tight, we could say that Army of Ghosts takes place in March 2007, allowing for ~21 months to coincide with December 2008. That would leave room for the Christmas party (sure, Tosh and Owen would have been really fresh at the time, but it could have been an effort to try and get things back to normal). It's all too soon for Martha so she doesn't go (not to mention splitting with Tom around the same time). Then she has the opportunity for the whirlwind romance with Mickey for them to be married by September. Like I say, it's a tight squeeze, but it just about works (unless I'm forgetting something else important). Hang on, doesn't Series 4 need to take place in 2009? That would mean Martha still has to be engaged during 2009... And thus the problems continue (You're right, we should probably ignore the 21 months thing...)
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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 14:18:32 GMT
Nothing. The Ianto flashback in Fragments would put Fragments and Exit Wounds in 2009 to make any sense, and you can’t explain it away like the Tosh and Owen flashbacks because the Battle of Canary Wharf has to happen in Spring/Summer 2007. I think the Ianto flashback is 21 months before Fragments which would put Fragments in early 2009. There’s no indication that Something Borrowed doesn’t happen in 2008 and there’s actually evidence in the novels that it takes place in Autumn 2008. Honestly I’m inclined to ignore the rating given in the flashback because it’s the only thing that actually indicates that Series 2 spills into 2009. If we wanted to make things really, really tight, we could say that Army of Ghosts takes place in March 2007, allowing for ~21 months to coincide with December 2008. That would leave room for the Christmas party (sure, Tosh and Owen would have been really fresh at the time, but it could have been an effort to try and get things back to normal). It's all too soon for Martha so she doesn't go (not to mention splitting with Tom around the same time). Then she has the opportunity for the whirlwind romance with Mickey for them to be married by September. Like I say, it's a tight squeeze, but it just about works (unless I'm forgetting something else important). Hang on, doesn't Series 4 need to take place in 2009? That would mean Martha still has to be engaged during 2009... And thus the problems continue (You're right, we should probably ignore the 21 months thing...) Yeah Martha’s engagement is mentioned in The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky, they even make a point of having her retrieve the ring from her clone, and it can’t be Mickey as he isn’t on Earth until Journey's End. Blimey one work Christmas party really has opened a can of worms.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 18, 2020 14:25:01 GMT
Nothing. The Ianto flashback in Fragments would put Fragments and Exit Wounds in 2009 to make any sense, and you can’t explain it away like the Tosh and Owen flashbacks because the Battle of Canary Wharf has to happen in Spring/Summer 2007. I think the Ianto flashback is 21 months before Fragments which would put Fragments in early 2009. There’s no indication that Something Borrowed doesn’t happen in 2008 and there’s actually evidence in the novels that it takes place in Autumn 2008. Honestly I’m inclined to ignore the rating given in the flashback because it’s the only thing that actually indicates that Series 2 spills into 2009. If we wanted to make things really, really tight, we could say that Army of Ghosts takes place in March 2007, allowing for ~21 months to coincide with December 2008. That would leave room for the Christmas party (sure, Tosh and Owen would have been really fresh at the time, but it could have been an effort to try and get things back to normal). It's all too soon for Martha so she doesn't go (not to mention splitting with Tom around the same time). Then she has the opportunity for the whirlwind romance with Mickey for them to be married by September. Like I say, it's a tight squeeze, but it just about works (unless I'm forgetting something else important). Hang on, doesn't Series 4 need to take place in 2009? That would mean Martha still has to be engaged during 2009... And thus the problems continue (You're right, we should probably ignore the 21 months thing...) The problem with putting the Battle of Canary Wharf in March 2007 is that Love and Monsters takes place during that month and the Ghost Shifts clearly aren’t happening yet at that point. Jackie then mentions that the Ghost Shifts started two months ago in Army of Ghosts, so it has to be May/June at the earliest. Going by the 21 months dating in the Fragments flashback, that’d put Fragments and Exit Wounds in February/March 2009. If Torchwood Series 2 goes in 2009, then the first few months of that year are crazy packed seeing as Doctor Who Series 4 has to go prior to Easter 2009 as the Series 4 finale is referenced by one of the characters on the bus. Plus Mona Lisa's Revenge refers to the Cup of King Athelstan being stolen at Easter and that’s also supposed to take place in 2009. And I think that there’s advertisements for Daniel Naismith in Planet of the Dead which would make a Easter 2010 setting unlikely. Yeah and I think they messed up continuity with the engagement thing. Unless Martha has been running around pretending to still be engaged into 2009. Unless she just hadn’t taken off the engagement ring and once it was pointed out by Donna, she didn’t want to say “Actually we split up and I haven’t been able to find anyone who matches up to you Doctor”. I’m guessing they forgot about the one year ahead rule with Doctor Who, so they had it in mind that Series 4 took place in early 2008. Honestly I wish RTD had just set Rose in 2004 so that by the time we got to Aliens of London we’d have been in the present. That would have made things so much simpler. Like how Moffat set The Eleventh Hour in 2008 and then jumped ahead to what was the present day. He ballsed things up later but it was a good start.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 14:33:12 GMT
If we wanted to make things really, really tight, we could say that Army of Ghosts takes place in March 2007, allowing for ~21 months to coincide with December 2008. That would leave room for the Christmas party (sure, Tosh and Owen would have been really fresh at the time, but it could have been an effort to try and get things back to normal). It's all too soon for Martha so she doesn't go (not to mention splitting with Tom around the same time). Then she has the opportunity for the whirlwind romance with Mickey for them to be married by September. Like I say, it's a tight squeeze, but it just about works (unless I'm forgetting something else important). Hang on, doesn't Series 4 need to take place in 2009? That would mean Martha still has to be engaged during 2009... And thus the problems continue (You're right, we should probably ignore the 21 months thing...) The problem with putting the Battle of Canary Wharf in March 2007 is that Love and Monsters takes place during that month and the Ghost Shifts clearly aren’t happening yet at that point. Jackie then mentions that the Ghost Shifts started two months ago in Army of Ghosts, so it has to be May/June at the earliest. Going by the 21 months dating in the Fragments flashback, that’d put Fragments and Exit Wounds in February/March 2009. If Torchwood Series 2 goes in 2009, then the first few months of that year are crazy packed seeing as Doctor Who Series 4 has to go prior to Easter 2009 as the Series 4 finale is referenced by one of the characters on the bus. Plus Mona Lisa's Revenge refers to the Cup of King Athelstan being stolen at Easter and that’s also supposed to take place in 2009. And I think that there’s advertisements for Daniel Naismith in Planet of the Dead which would make a Easter 2010 setting unlikely. Yeah and I think they messed up continuity with the engagement thing. Unless Martha has been running around pretending to still be engaged into 2009. Unless she just hadn’t taken off the engagement ring and once it was pointed out by Donna, she didn’t want to say “Actually we split up and I haven’t been able to find anyone who matches up to you Doctor”. I’m guessing they forgot about the one year ahead rule with Doctor Who, so they had it in mind that Series 4 took place in early 2008. Honestly I wish RTD had just set Rose in 2004 so that by the time we got to Aliens of London we’d have been in the present. That would have made things so much simpler. Like how Moffat set The Eleventh Hour in 2008 and then jumped ahead to what was the present day. He ballsed things up later but it was a good start. I’ve dodged the 2009 Easter problem by just putting Planet of the Dead, Mona Lisa’s Revenge and The End of Time in 2010. I can’t think of anything specific in them that says they’re in 2009 (he says with substantial caution). So the problem in a nutshell is Dissected is set shortly after/during Christmas season, but somehow also has to be between Journey’s End which is in early 2009 and Children of Earth which is in September 2009. I really can’t think of a way round this beyond a bizarre ‘Christmas do in summer’ or the Rift screwing up casualty. Thanks for the point above about Torchwood Series 2, I’ve shuffled everything before Fragments back to 2008.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 18, 2020 14:46:26 GMT
The problem with putting the Battle of Canary Wharf in March 2007 is that Love and Monsters takes place during that month and the Ghost Shifts clearly aren’t happening yet at that point. Jackie then mentions that the Ghost Shifts started two months ago in Army of Ghosts, so it has to be May/June at the earliest. Going by the 21 months dating in the Fragments flashback, that’d put Fragments and Exit Wounds in February/March 2009. If Torchwood Series 2 goes in 2009, then the first few months of that year are crazy packed seeing as Doctor Who Series 4 has to go prior to Easter 2009 as the Series 4 finale is referenced by one of the characters on the bus. Plus Mona Lisa's Revenge refers to the Cup of King Athelstan being stolen at Easter and that’s also supposed to take place in 2009. And I think that there’s advertisements for Daniel Naismith in Planet of the Dead which would make a Easter 2010 setting unlikely. Yeah and I think they messed up continuity with the engagement thing. Unless Martha has been running around pretending to still be engaged into 2009. Unless she just hadn’t taken off the engagement ring and once it was pointed out by Donna, she didn’t want to say “Actually we split up and I haven’t been able to find anyone who matches up to you Doctor”. I’m guessing they forgot about the one year ahead rule with Doctor Who, so they had it in mind that Series 4 took place in early 2008. Honestly I wish RTD had just set Rose in 2004 so that by the time we got to Aliens of London we’d have been in the present. That would have made things so much simpler. Like how Moffat set The Eleventh Hour in 2008 and then jumped ahead to what was the present day. He ballsed things up later but it was a good start. I’ve dodged the 2009 Easter problem by just putting Planet of the Dead, Mona Lisa’s Revenge and The End of Time in 2010. I can’t think of anything specific in them that says they’re in 2009 (he says with substantial caution). So the problem in a nutshell is Dissected is set shortly after/during Christmas season, but somehow also has to be between Journey’s End which is in early 2009 and Children of Earth which is in September 2009. I really can’t think of a way round this beyond a bizarre ‘Christmas do in summer’ or the Rift screwing up casualty. Thanks for the point above about Torchwood Series 2, I’ve shuffled everything before Fragments back to 2008. The problem with putting Mona Lisa's Revenge in 2010 is that you’d have to split up the series of SJA. The Wedding of River Song has to take place in 2009 as it’s Luke's second encounter with the Doctor after The Stolen Earth / Journey's End. And then in Death of the Doctor (which I believe takes place in late 2010), Sarah Jane mentions that the last time she saw the Doctor was in The End of Time. During his appearance in The End of Time, Luke talks to Clyde on the phone about the events of The End of Time just happening, so it has to take place in December 2009. Back to Dissected though, I didn’t get the impression that the Christmas Do was recent at all. To me it just seemed like that was Torchwood's last contact with Martha before Dissected. Of course the issue is, this also comes after Doctor Who Series 4, where she was still engaged and encounters Torchwood.
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Post by OneTen on Feb 18, 2020 14:47:48 GMT
Unless the Doctor isn't actually as massive a pedant as I am, her voiceover states that Praxeus takes place in or after 2021. Not that this helps at all with the 2009 problem.
Great timeline, btw!
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 18, 2020 14:52:57 GMT
Unless the Doctor isn't actually as massive a pedant as I am, her voiceover states that Praxeus takes place in or after 2021. Not that this helps at all with the 2009 problem. Great timeline, btw! I’m fairly sure “early in the third decade of the twenty-first century” was supposed to refer to 2020. I can see why you’d say it’s supposed to be 2021 or later but I can guarantee if you ask most people when the third decade of the 21st century started, they’d say 2020. Myself included probably.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 18, 2020 14:53:10 GMT
I’ve dodged the 2009 Easter problem by just putting Planet of the Dead, Mona Lisa’s Revenge and The End of Time in 2010. I can’t think of anything specific in them that says they’re in 2009 (he says with substantial caution). So the problem in a nutshell is Dissected is set shortly after/during Christmas season, but somehow also has to be between Journey’s End which is in early 2009 and Children of Earth which is in September 2009. I really can’t think of a way round this beyond a bizarre ‘Christmas do in summer’ or the Rift screwing up casualty. Thanks for the point above about Torchwood Series 2, I’ve shuffled everything before Fragments back to 2008. The problem with putting Mona Lisa's Revenge in 2010 is that you’d have to split up the series of SJA. The Wedding of River Song has to take place in 2009 as it’s Luke's second encounter with the Doctor after The Stolen Earth / Journey's End. And then in Death of the Doctor (which I believe takes place in late 2010), Sarah Jane mentions that the last time she saw the Doctor was in The End of Time. During his appearance in The End of Time, Luke talks to Clyde on the phone about the events of The End of Time just happening, so it has to take place in December 2009. Back to Dissected though, I didn’t get the impression that the Christmas Do was recent at all. To me it just seemed like that was Torchwood's last contact with Martha before Dissected. Of course the issue is, this also comes after Doctor Who Series 4, where she was still engaged and encounters Torchwood. Is The End of Time explicitly in 2009 though? Putting it in Christmas 2010 puts it after Wedding, and putting Death of the Doctor back in 2011 doesn’t contradict anything I think (?). I guess I just got the sense that Martha’s break-up with Tom aas recent, and as that was supposedly why she didn’t come to the Christmas do that makes it recent too. Recent being an incredibly flexible term here.
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Post by OneTen on Feb 18, 2020 15:00:29 GMT
Unless the Doctor isn't actually as massive a pedant as I am, her voiceover states that Praxeus takes place in or after 2021. Not that this helps at all with the 2009 problem. Great timeline, btw! I’m fairly sure “early in the third decade of the twenty-first century” was supposed to refer to 2020. I can see why you’d say it’s supposed to be 2021 or later but I can guarantee if you ask most people when the third decade of the 21st century started, they’d say 2020. Myself included probably. I'm sure that's what McTighe (or Chibnall) had in mind, because it didn't probably didn't even occur to him that he might have made an erroneous assumption - but if so he's inadvertently written something that seems quite out of character for the Doctor, who is usually portrayed as a bit of know-it-all!
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 18, 2020 16:28:42 GMT
Is The End of Time explicitly in 2009 though? Putting it in Christmas 2010 puts it after Wedding, and putting Death of the Doctor back in 2011 doesn’t contradict anything I think (?). I guess I just got the sense that Martha’s break-up with Tom aas recent, and as that was supposedly why she didn’t come to the Christmas do that makes it recent too. Recent being an incredibly flexible term here. I’ve had a look around and even cracked out the ole’ AHistory and there doesn’t seem to be anything stopping you from moving The End of Time to 2010.
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