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Post by fingersmash on May 30, 2020 14:20:25 GMT
No, they shouldn't... but at the same time acceptance doesn't mean only accepting people who agree with us either. Especially if we say we have to accept people for who they are! If people don't want to buy a work of fiction for whatever reason, then that's their choice. If Stranded turns out being a great story it's their loss. But saying 'we' don't want people here who have different world views to us is not the way to go. I mean, it's not like we're disagreeing over who our favourite Doctor is, it's a little more serious than that. But I'll concede, saying they're not welcome here was perhaps a bit too strong. Perhaps I should have said was that those views weren't welcome here - feeling that way about trans people is one thing, but airing those views and complaining about a trans character (before we even know any context, and whether her gender plays a big part in the stories or not) is another matter. Generally, I view this forum as a "safe space", because despite having different views on characters/plots/whatever, we all get along and I don't recall ever seeing anyone complaining about a minority group, and given that most other places on the internet, you tend to get people chiming in with offensive comments/views, it's refreshing to come here and not have to see any of that. So seeing someone coming here and commenting with those sorts of views does frustrate me a bit. I feel like gay, trans and POC characters are important for representation (especially for trans people, as they are so underrepresented in media) and as someone who is part of the LGBTQ community, I felt the need to stand up to transphobia. So I apologise for being brash and rude. I could have worded it/reacted better. As someone who is also LGBTQ+ (I'm in the +), I don't think you need to apologize. The paradox of tolerance is in full effect with things like this and saying that bigotry is against the spirit of Doctor Who and is not welcome on this forum is 100% true. We can disagree on who is the best Doctor, who is the best Companion, who is the best monster, etc. But this is far more serious. Maybe it's just because things here in the states have just gotten to a breaking point when it comes to inequality but I can't let blatant bigotry just... exist anymore.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 16:00:17 GMT
I mean, it's not like we're disagreeing over who our favourite Doctor is, it's a little more serious than that. But I'll concede, saying they're not welcome here was perhaps a bit too strong. Perhaps I should have said was that those views weren't welcome here - feeling that way about trans people is one thing, but airing those views and complaining about a trans character (before we even know any context, and whether her gender plays a big part in the stories or not) is another matter. Generally, I view this forum as a "safe space", because despite having different views on characters/plots/whatever, we all get along and I don't recall ever seeing anyone complaining about a minority group, and given that most other places on the internet, you tend to get people chiming in with offensive comments/views, it's refreshing to come here and not have to see any of that. So seeing someone coming here and commenting with those sorts of views does frustrate me a bit. I feel like gay, trans and POC characters are important for representation (especially for trans people, as they are so underrepresented in media) and as someone who is part of the LGBTQ community, I felt the need to stand up to transphobia. So I apologise for being brash and rude. I could have worded it/reacted better. As someone who is also LGBTQ+ (I'm in the +), I don't think you need to apologize. The paradox of tolerance is in full effect with things like this and saying that bigotry is against the spirit of Doctor Who and is not welcome on this forum is 100% true. We can disagree on who is the best Doctor, who is the best Companion, who is the best monster, etc. But this is far more serious. Maybe it's just because things here in the states have just gotten to a breaking point when it comes to inequality but I can't let blatant bigotry just... exist anymore. I typed up a long winded entry to this thread yesterday, then deleted it without posting as I am no expert, being neither LGBT nor Minority Ethinc. The crux of my thoughts, however, were that as over the past 4 decades people have become more tolerant and open to diversity as something that enriches us all, as opposed to grey old homogenity, those with prejudice feel marginalised and therefore more vociferous and politicised as they have to campaign to maintain outdated and ignorant mindsets. Engaging with them publicly gives them a platform and thus a sense of validation. And therefore what is a good thing, about people appreciating people for being themselves, becomes a source of anxiety and stress. You/we and everybody do not need to give a platform to anyone who denies ones right to be themselves. The best way to silence such prejudice (in my opinion that is) is not to engage with it. If everybody did so, we would marginalise them further. Just a personal perspective on this though.
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Post by fingersmash on May 30, 2020 17:52:12 GMT
As someone who is also LGBTQ+ (I'm in the +), I don't think you need to apologize. The paradox of tolerance is in full effect with things like this and saying that bigotry is against the spirit of Doctor Who and is not welcome on this forum is 100% true. We can disagree on who is the best Doctor, who is the best Companion, who is the best monster, etc. But this is far more serious. Maybe it's just because things here in the states have just gotten to a breaking point when it comes to inequality but I can't let blatant bigotry just... exist anymore. I typed up a long winded entry to this thread yesterday, then deleted it without posting as I am no expert, being neither LGBT nor Minority Ethinc. The crux of my thoughts, however, were that as over the past 4 decades people have become more tolerant and open to diversity as something that enriches us all, as opposed to grey old homogenity, those with prejudice feel marginalised and therefore more vociferous and politicised as they have to campaign to maintain outdated and ignorant mindsets. Engaging with them publicly gives them a platform and thus a sense of validation. And therefore what is a good thing, about people appreciating people for being themselves, becomes a source of anxiety and stress. You/we and everybody do not need to give a platform to anyone who denies ones right to be themselves. The best way to silence such prejudice (in my opinion that is) is not to engage with it. If everybody did so, we would marginalise them further. Just a personal perspective on this though. That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2020 18:11:09 GMT
I typed up a long winded entry to this thread yesterday, then deleted it without posting as I am no expert, being neither LGBT nor Minority Ethinc. The crux of my thoughts, however, were that as over the past 4 decades people have become more tolerant and open to diversity as something that enriches us all, as opposed to grey old homogenity, those with prejudice feel marginalised and therefore more vociferous and politicised as they have to campaign to maintain outdated and ignorant mindsets. Engaging with them publicly gives them a platform and thus a sense of validation. And therefore what is a good thing, about people appreciating people for being themselves, becomes a source of anxiety and stress. You/we and everybody do not need to give a platform to anyone who denies ones right to be themselves. The best way to silence such prejudice (in my opinion that is) is not to engage with it. If everybody did so, we would marginalise them further. Just a personal perspective on this though. That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning. As I say, i can only give my own perspective - you will have a more direct emotional experience. For an example of my reasoning, there is the British National Party. Had they been banned or silenced as a racist organisation, they would have been able to claim persecution or censorship. As it was, by allowing them a voice as a so called 'legitimate' political party, people were able to see them for what they were and they collapsed into insignificance as no one was listening to them anymore. No protests, nor the oxygen of publicity, and no big fights. Let them have their soap-box, but don't turn up to listen.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jun 1, 2020 9:21:18 GMT
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 1, 2020 9:23:51 GMT
It looks like a Big Finish newsletter exclusive. They’ve included the code and link to access with it.
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 1, 2020 9:46:14 GMT
I’m curious to see where The Curator’s involvement goes. I wasn’t too keen in his first scene in the excerpt, as it was just mostly rewording of his lines from The Day of the Doctor, but the second scene is intriguing. Despite the fatigue of this team, it was surprisingly nice to hear Liv & Helen interacting on the bustling streets of London and how it’s changed since Helen’s time. Fleeting mention of UNIT being disbanded as per Resolution. Also a nod at the Doctor making herself a sonic screwdriver in 2020, which Eight seems incapable of doing!
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 1, 2020 9:48:34 GMT
That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning. As I say, i can only give my own perspective - you will have a more direct emotional experience. For an example of my reasoning, there is the British National Party. Had they been banned or silenced as a racist organisation, they would have been able to claim persecution or censorship. As it was, by allowing them a voice as a so called 'legitimate' political party, people were able to see them for what they were and they collapsed into insignificance as no one was listening to them anymore. No protests, nor the oxygen of publicity, and no big fights. Let them have their soap-box, but don't turn up to listen. Maybe. But the BNP haven't really gone away, they have rebranded, the EDL, Stephen Yaxley-Lennon. Has anything really changed? Sorry this is all off topic.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jun 1, 2020 10:52:33 GMT
I typed up a long winded entry to this thread yesterday, then deleted it without posting as I am no expert, being neither LGBT nor Minority Ethinc. The crux of my thoughts, however, were that as over the past 4 decades people have become more tolerant and open to diversity as something that enriches us all, as opposed to grey old homogenity, those with prejudice feel marginalised and therefore more vociferous and politicised as they have to campaign to maintain outdated and ignorant mindsets. Engaging with them publicly gives them a platform and thus a sense of validation. And therefore what is a good thing, about people appreciating people for being themselves, becomes a source of anxiety and stress. You/we and everybody do not need to give a platform to anyone who denies ones right to be themselves. The best way to silence such prejudice (in my opinion that is) is not to engage with it. If everybody did so, we would marginalise them further. Just a personal perspective on this though. That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning. So it's ok to do things that, in your own words, "seem cruel" to make others come round to your way of thinking? That's the philosophy of the Spanish Inquisition, Mao's cultural revolution, etc - cruel to be kind, it only seems cruel, it's for their own good. And what if, after you've done the things that seem cruel, "the lesson refuses to be learned"? Is it ok to be even crueler at that point? After all, it's their own fault for not learning the lesson - all they have to do is recant their blasphemy and all will be well again. How is it decided what measure of cruelty is an acceptable level of cruelty and how much is too cruel & who gets to decide?
How sad when yesterday's persecuted become tomorrow's persecutors.
I've posted this before on this forum Voltaire's famous "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That is the benchmark of true tolerance and anything that falls short is not tolerant at all
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 1, 2020 11:16:56 GMT
Wow this topic has gone way off thread
just currently listening to the excerpt:
1) The David Arnold Opening Theme seems a bit distorted compared to earlier audios 2) i like how Tom's performance as The Curator is much difference from His 4th Doctor 3) I Hate how we got a reference to one of the modern episodes
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jun 1, 2020 11:23:01 GMT
That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning. So it's ok to do things that, in your own words, "seem cruel" to make others come round to your way of thinking? That's the philosophy of the Spanish Inquisition, Mao's cultural revolution, etc - cruel to be kind, it only seems cruel, it's for their own good. And what if, after you've done the things that seem cruel, "the lesson refuses to be learned"? Is it ok to be even crueler at that point? After all, it's their own fault for not learning the lesson - all they have to do is recant their blasphemy and all will be well again. How is it decided what measure of cruelty is an acceptable level of cruelty and how much is too cruel & who gets to decide?
How sad when yesterday's persecuted become tomorrow's persecutors.
I've posted this before on this forum Voltaire's famous "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That is the benchmark of true tolerance and anything that falls short is not tolerant at all
Okay so apparently not giving bigots a platform = genocide
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Post by saxty on Jun 1, 2020 11:35:11 GMT
That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning. So it's ok to do things that, in your own words, "seem cruel" to make others come round to your way of thinking? That's the philosophy of the Spanish Inquisition, Mao's cultural revolution, etc - cruel to be kind, it only seems cruel, it's for their own good. And what if, after you've done the things that seem cruel, "the lesson refuses to be learned"? Is it ok to be even crueler at that point? After all, it's their own fault for not learning the lesson - all they have to do is recant their blasphemy and all will be well again. How is it decided what measure of cruelty is an acceptable level of cruelty and how much is too cruel & who gets to decide?
How sad when yesterday's persecuted become tomorrow's persecutors.
I've posted this before on this forum Voltaire's famous "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That is the benchmark of true tolerance and anything that falls short is not tolerant at all
Pure waffle mate. Ban transphobes! Anyway, Got 15 minutes of Stranded to listen to on my trip to the shops so today is looking up!
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 1, 2020 12:14:31 GMT
I’m curious to see where The Curator’s involvement goes. I wasn’t too keen in his first scene in the excerpt, as it was just mostly rewording of his lines from The Day of the Doctor, but the second scene is intriguing. Despite the fatigue of this team, it was surprisingly nice to hear Liv & Helen interacting on the bustling streets of London and how it’s changed since Helen’s time. Fleeting mention of UNIT being disbanded as per Resolution. Also a nod at the Doctor making herself a sonic screwdriver in 2020, which Eight seems incapable of doing! I try to control myself and NOT listen to the excerpt, just to keep the surprise. I wonder if I remain steadfast this time...
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 1, 2020 12:15:38 GMT
Wow this topic has gone way off thread just currently listening to the excerpt: 1) The David Arnold Opening Theme seems a bit distorted compared to earlier audios 2) i like how Tom's performance as The Curator is much difference from His 4th Doctor 3) I Hate how we got a reference to one of the modern episodes Well, somehow they have to explain certain decisions that were made in the TV series... for better or for worse.
I am curious how they deal with it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 12:42:45 GMT
I’m curious to see where The Curator’s involvement goes. I wasn’t too keen in his first scene in the excerpt, as it was just mostly rewording of his lines from The Day of the Doctor, but the second scene is intriguing. Despite the fatigue of this team, it was surprisingly nice to hear Liv & Helen interacting on the bustling streets of London and how it’s changed since Helen’s time. Fleeting mention of UNIT being disbanded as per Resolution. Also a nod at the Doctor making herself a sonic screwdriver in 2020, which Eight seems incapable of doing! I try to control myself and NOT listen to the excerpt, just to keep the surprise. I wonder if I remain steadfast this time...
I tried that...and failed miserably. 😊 Now correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it just the UK branch of UNIT that was mothballed in 'Resolution'?
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Post by pawntake on Jun 1, 2020 13:53:09 GMT
Looking forward to this!So i have stayed well-clear of the excerpt!
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Jun 1, 2020 14:57:49 GMT
As I haven’t got this pre-ordered I had the pleasure of listening to this excerpt. And indeed it was a pleasure to listen to.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Jun 1, 2020 15:36:04 GMT
That may be true but I think before ignoring it, we need to shut it down, point out the bigotry, and (lacking a better word) shame that bigotry. Progress only comes from education and understanding, even if that lesson comes from a way that may seem cruel. If the lesson refuses to be learned, then commence shunning. So it's ok to do things that, in your own words, "seem cruel" to make others come round to your way of thinking? That's the philosophy of the Spanish Inquisition, Mao's cultural revolution, etc - cruel to be kind, it only seems cruel, it's for their own good. And what if, after you've done the things that seem cruel, "the lesson refuses to be learned"? Is it ok to be even crueler at that point? After all, it's their own fault for not learning the lesson - all they have to do is recant their blasphemy and all will be well again. How is it decided what measure of cruelty is an acceptable level of cruelty and how much is too cruel & who gets to decide?
How sad when yesterday's persecuted become tomorrow's persecutors.
I've posted this before on this forum Voltaire's famous "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it". That is the benchmark of true tolerance and anything that falls short is not tolerant at all
I know this is going off topic but people often use that quote & it annoys me. Just to clarify, Voltaire never said that it was invented by his biographer, Evelyn Beatrice Hall. It would be nice if this was an easy expression of true tolerance but I disagree. We should not tolerate transphobia, we should not tolerate holocaust deniers, or all manner of offensive opinions on the grounds of free speech. Like it or not free speech has limits. Sorry again for going off topic but I had to get that off my chest.
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 1, 2020 16:01:57 GMT
I try to control myself and NOT listen to the excerpt, just to keep the surprise. I wonder if I remain steadfast this time...
I tried that...and failed miserably. 😊 Now correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it just the UK branch of UNIT that was mothballed in 'Resolution'?To be totally honest, I cannot remember.... But in the current political climate, mothballing the whole thing along the lines of the WHO funding cuts would just totally fit the tone.
And I still have remained steadfast. Hope this comes out this week!
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 1, 2020 18:18:17 GMT
I try to control myself and NOT listen to the excerpt, just to keep the surprise. I wonder if I remain steadfast this time...
I tried that...and failed miserably. 😊 Now correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it just the UK branch of UNIT that was mothballed in 'Resolution'? I believe it was. Then because the UK Section was out of commission, it meant the rest got less funding
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