shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Feb 15, 2020 8:57:18 GMT
I’m currently doing a reread of Walter M. Miller’s A Canticle For Leibowitz and I was at chapter 6 of Book 1, wherein we learn about what happened to Leibowitz. The structure of the world takes pride in people being “simple” and not having any learning, since knowledge is apparently what caused the nuclear war that begat the novel’s setting. Anyway, the idea of being known as a “simpleton” rather than clever struck me as being similar to the ravings of a former professor of biology in Roger Zelazny’s Damnation Alley where he talks about “Baynesian mimicry” being the salvation of some creatures. What they did, he says, was mimic the actions of creatures that might prey upon them and avoid being eaten and thus survive. He talks a bit of his own particular situation where he pretends to not be a scientist in order to fit in better and survive in a lawless region of the US.
There was also a mention (in Leibowitz) of “bookleggers”, people who would memorise books for future posterity or salvage them and bury them in caches in out-of-the-way places to be dug up when civilisation recovers properly. This reminded me of the band of homeless men that Guy Montag falls in with at the climax of Ray Bradbury’s Fahrenheit 451, a novel that takes place on the brink of - and just after - a nuclear war.
All three books were published between 1951 and 1969 and posit a nuclear war in the near future of the publication date. What I’m wondering is, perhaps they all take place in the same future, a world where knowledge is shunned because of what happened, and where people have built up a functional feudal society based around people not learning too much in case it all happens again which them becomes something a little more violent and self-serving.
Does anyone else have an example of a shared universe, created independently by multiple authors?
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Post by theotherjosh on Feb 19, 2020 20:36:57 GMT
I’m currently doing a reread of Walter M. Miller’s A Canticle For Leibowitz and I was at chapter 6 of Book 1, wherein we learn about what happened to Leibowitz. The structure of the world takes pride in people being “simple” and not having any learning, since knowledge is apparently what caused the nuclear war that begat the novel’s setting. Anyway, the idea of being known as a “simpleton” rather than clever struck me as being similar to the ravings of a former professor of biology in Roger Zelazny’s Damnation Alley where he talks about “Baynesian mimicry” being the salvation of some creatures. What they did, he says, was mimic the actions of creatures that might prey upon them and avoid being eaten and thus survive. He talks a bit of his own particular situation where he pretends to not be a scientist in order to fit in better and survive in a lawless region of the US. It's very strange that you should mention that. I maintain a (now mostly dormant) blog dedicated primarily to the writings of Roger Zelazny and someone wrote in asking if the Noh play at the end of Damnation Alley could possibly be a reference to Canticle. Carl Yoke, Zelazny's friend and biographer wrote about the possible symbolism of the play here:Chris Kovacs, another Zelazny biographer commented with: In all of my reading of Zelazny's papers and correspondence, I don't recall any mention of Miller or this book. But it was published in 1959, at a time when it was possible to read all SF published in a year, and this has always been a prominent book. And so I have no doubt that Zelazny will have known about it and likely read it. Whether he was alluding to it is impossible to say. I read Canticle over 30 years ago and can't recall it well enough to be able to comment any further.I'll bring up your point about Baynesian mimicry to him because it certainly sounds like it has merit. Interestingly, someone else on the blog connected Zelazny's Damnation Alley to This Immortal/And Call Me Conrad. The novella version of Damnation Alley contains references to the Mars and Titan colonies and the Three Days nuclear war. That's not really what you're looking for, since it's all the same author and it's not really the same thing but I thought it was interesting. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 19, 2020 21:47:23 GMT
Off the top of my head, it’s easy to believe that “The Librarians” exists in the same universe as “Warehouse 13” as both series deals with mystically empowered artefacts, the Library deals with the reslly seriously dangerous stuff and the living things and the Warehouse everything else. The Warehouse was established by a cabal of immortals, so why not include a Judson in that list?
And once you link those two, “Eureka” occurs in the same universe as “Doctor Who” (the TARDIS is stored “for safe keeping” in the Library annex and “Eureka” is the tech support for the Warehouse).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2020 2:24:20 GMT
It's the "created independently by multiple authors" bit that's getting me. My brain used to be full of stuff like this and now it's gone elsewhere, I wonder where it's all got to...? I, unfortunately, haven't got anything as well-reasoned as above thread. At least, not to mind at the present.
Doctor Who's definitely a big one. In addition to the above, there have also been references to the planet Trantor from Foundation (Sixie thought it "too cosmopolitan" for a holiday) and the Discworld from Terry Pratchett (Eight saw it, "it was round"). I was surprised digging around in the Star Trek: The Original Series novels just how many references there are there. The Fifth Doctor appears in one book as a work of fiction, asking if the TARDIS has reached Heathrow, while in another, Starfleet makes reference to "Metebelis crystals" and a race of stagnant time-travellers rumoured to operate in Kasterborous. Quatermass has made a few appearances with the Eighth Doctor having met him during his younger years (likely in that gap between Pit and IV). I can't point to a specific book, but I'm certain that Dirk Gently's had a look in at some point.
Outside of that, The Orville's mention of Tarazed -- a solar system rather integral to Andromeda -- has made me wonder just how many of the Trek-alike series might take place in the universe. Give or take a few centuries of difference.
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Post by agentten on Feb 20, 2020 3:37:56 GMT
A few that come to mind: The fantasy world of Hyperborea that Robert E. Howard created, and features Conan among others, makes a number of references to H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, and vice versa. V-Wars, the book series masterminded by Jonathan Maberry, is a series of collections of short stories by different authors that all share a mythos and take place within a larger narrative. And there's the legend of John Munch, a character that has appeared on, and thus connects many, many shows, that actually creates quite a web of continuity among not only the various cop shows he's appeared in such as Law and Order and Homicide, but his appearances on shows like The X-Files and Arrested Development actually push those shows into the same universe.
Mulder and Scully existing in a world alongside The Bluth family is a lot to wrap one's mind around, but the continuity is there and we're just going to have to accept it no matter what havoc it creates.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,669
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Post by shutupbanks on Feb 20, 2020 9:59:59 GMT
A few that come to mind: The fantasy world of Hyperborea that Robert E. Howard created, and features Conan among others, makes a number of references to H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos, and vice versa. V-Wars, the book series masterminded by Jonathan Maberry, is a series of collections of short stories by different authors that all share a mythos and take place within a larger narrative. And there's the legend of John Munch, a character that has appeared on, and thus connects many, many shows, that actually creates quite a web of continuity among not only the various cop shows he's appeared in such as Law and Order and Homicide, but his appearances on shows like The X-Files and Arrested Development actually push those shows into the same universe.
Mulder and Scully existing in a world alongside The Bluth family is a lot to wrap one's mind around, but the continuity is there and we're just going to have to accept it no matter what havoc it creates.
I think Munch is part of the “Tommy Westphall Universe” which would also make him a part of nearly every tv series in the world. I can’t believe I didn’t think of Hyperborea or the Cthulhu mythos - and I’ve written a piece of Lovecraftian fiction! |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,669
|
Post by shutupbanks on Feb 20, 2020 22:47:57 GMT
It's the "created independently by multiple authors" bit that's getting me. My brain used to be full of stuff like this and now it's gone elsewhere, I wonder where it's all got to...? I, unfortunately, haven't got anything as well-reasoned as above thread. At least, not to mind at the present. Doctor Who's definitely a big one. In addition to the above, there have also been references to the planet Trantor from Foundation (Sixie thought it "too cosmopolitan" for a holiday) and the Discworld from Terry Pratchett (Eight saw it, "it was round"). I was surprised digging around in the Star Trek: The Original Series novels just how many references there are there. The Fifth Doctor appears in one book as a work of fiction, asking if the TARDIS has reached Heathrow, while in another, Starfleet makes reference to "Metebelis crystals" and a race of stagnant time-travellers rumoured to operate in Kasterborous. Quatermass has made a few appearances with the Eighth Doctor having met him during his younger years (likely in that gap between Pit and IV). I can't point to a specific book, but I'm certain that Dirk Gently's had a look in at some point. Outside of that, The Orville's mention of Tarazed -- a solar system rather integral to Andromeda -- has made me wonder just how many of the Trek-alike series might take place in the universe. Give or take a few centuries of difference. Apologies for taking so long on replying to this: the last few days have been hectic. I’m sort of thinking of works created by two or more writers that could possibly be the same world but without consciously/ deliberately acknowledging it. One franchise obscurely referencing another (although I love that!) sort of tips the hat to it but I’m really interested in stories that you could place in the same universe because of some elements in common. F’rinstance, my head canon is that Blake’s 7 takes place centuries after Star Trek. There’s a new calendar because at some point there was a massive conflict or disaster that tore the UFP apart (perhaps the barrier around the galaxy collapsed?) and caused Earth to become massively insular. The other members were affected similarly or were destroyed utterly. Technology took countless steps backward and Earth is only just now starting to build up a new Federation, albeit a twisted shadow of what came before (hence the logo looks like the Starfleet arrow but fallen over). The Alta managed to keep that technology and also stole some Borg units to create a hive mind... other things like that. Hope this helps. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 21, 2020 7:41:40 GMT
A Game of Thrones, particularly the books, are very Lovecraftian - there’s even a Starry Night Cult!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 9:12:03 GMT
It's the "created independently by multiple authors" bit that's getting me. My brain used to be full of stuff like this and now it's gone elsewhere, I wonder where it's all got to...? I, unfortunately, haven't got anything as well-reasoned as above thread. At least, not to mind at the present. Doctor Who's definitely a big one. In addition to the above, there have also been references to the planet Trantor from Foundation (Sixie thought it "too cosmopolitan" for a holiday) and the Discworld from Terry Pratchett (Eight saw it, "it was round"). I was surprised digging around in the Star Trek: The Original Series novels just how many references there are there. The Fifth Doctor appears in one book as a work of fiction, asking if the TARDIS has reached Heathrow, while in another, Starfleet makes reference to "Metebelis crystals" and a race of stagnant time-travellers rumoured to operate in Kasterborous. Quatermass has made a few appearances with the Eighth Doctor having met him during his younger years (likely in that gap between Pit and IV). I can't point to a specific book, but I'm certain that Dirk Gently's had a look in at some point. Outside of that, The Orville's mention of Tarazed -- a solar system rather integral to Andromeda -- has made me wonder just how many of the Trek-alike series might take place in the universe. Give or take a few centuries of difference. Apologies for taking so long on replying to this: the last few days have been hectic. I’m sort of thinking of works created by two or more writers that could possibly be the same world but without consciously/ deliberately acknowledging it. One franchise obscurely referencing another (although I love that!) sort of tips the hat to it but I’m really interested in stories that you could place in the same universe because of some elements in common. F’rinstance, my head canon is that Blake’s 7 takes place centuries after Star Trek. There’s a new calendar because at some point there was a massive conflict or disaster that tore the UFP apart (perhaps the barrier around the galaxy collapsed?) and caused Earth to become massively insular. The other members were affected similarly or were destroyed utterly. Technology took countless steps backward and Earth is only just now starting to build up a new Federation, albeit a twisted shadow of what came before (hence the logo looks like the Starfleet arrow but fallen over). The Alta managed to keep that technology and also stole some Borg units to create a hive mind... other things like that. Hope this helps. *snaps fingers* It does.  I'm reminded of a similar theory I had for Blake's 7. I'm convinced that the Earth Empire ( Frontier in Space, et al.) is a direct ancestor to the Federation. The Empire existing in the 26th century before making that uncomfortable slide into totalitarianism in the late 27th. You can already see it in the lunar penal colony, a large chunk of their population consist of "political prisoners"; i.e. peace protesters and so on. The Federation is a world lead by people like General Williams rather than the incumbent President. Going further back to the 21st(ish) century, the Sprawl from William Gibson's Neuromancer, stretching across the east coast of the United States, feels an awful lot like the final consequence of Judge Dredd's Mega-City One. It's hard not to imagine that the East Bloc mentioned in Warriors of the Deep includes East-Meg One. The Apocalypse War in 2104 being the eventual outcome of all those growing tensions and false starts from 2084 onwards... Right before the Dalek Invasion of Earth comes through and knocks all the sync-ops, console cowboys and judges back to the 20th century. The Invasion doesn't look so bad until you realise that there was no such thing as a clear sky before it. All that technological development was razed to the ground with only minor heritage buildings remaining. The Daleks spent the first couple years of their occupation sifting through the remnants for survivors. Cannibalising scrap to build their fleets. Another one comes from The Stranger, that series ABC is touting as a parallel developer to Doctor Who. There's a scene in the middle of it that has a United Nations committee, set up by a chap called Professor Mayer, to handle the Soshuniss Question: whether or not the Soshunese should be permitted to settle on the Earth. That whole process, I think, helped to contribute towards the establishment of UNIT as an international force. In fact, I think when Lethbridge-Stewart went to the UN Security Council, he was the one to help formalise that committee into said taskforce. Mayer might even be one of his superiors in Geneva. I'll let the ideas percolate further, but that's what I've got so far. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 21, 2020 9:33:48 GMT
Lewis exist in the same world as Death in Pradise - Saint Marie is where Robbie was sent to recover from Val’s death and returns from jn the first eppy of “Lewis”.
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I'm reminded of a similar theory I had for Blake's 7. I'm convinced that the Earth Empire (Frontier in Space, et al.) is a direct ancestor to the Federation. The Empire existing in the 26th century before making that uncomfortable slide into totalitarianism in the late 27th. You can already see it in the lunar penal colony, a large chunk of their population consist of "political prisoners"; i.e. peace protesters and so on. The Federation is a world lead by people like General Williams rather than the incumbent President.