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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 8, 2015 16:14:17 GMT
Clara will regenerate into William Hartnell, and ME will grow old and become Susan! Well, if the Doctor didn't really steal the president's wife (since it was his/her daughter), that means that Missy was telling the truth about him being a little girl. |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Dec 8, 2015 17:16:33 GMT
Clara will regenerate into William Hartnell, and ME will grow old and become Susan! Well, if the Doctor didn't really steal the president's wife (since it was his/her daughter), that means that Missy was telling the truth about him being a little girl. Are we forgetting that that isn't possible, considering we've seen the Doctor as a young boy and the series has established the first Doctor was William Hartnell as opposed to a young girl? |
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Post by randomjc on Dec 8, 2015 18:17:01 GMT
Well, if the Doctor didn't really steal the president's wife (since it was his/her daughter), that means that Missy was telling the truth about him being a little girl. Are we forgetting that that isn't possible, considering we've seen the Doctor as a young boy and the series has established the first Doctor was William Hartnell as opposed to a young girl? I blame Meglos. |
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 8, 2015 20:31:36 GMT
Well, if the Doctor didn't really steal the president's wife (since it was his/her daughter), that means that Missy was telling the truth about him being a little girl. Are we forgetting that that isn't possible, considering we've seen the Doctor as a young boy and the series has established the first Doctor was William Hartnell as opposed to a young girl? Maybe Hartnell's Doctor was transgendered in the more traditional, human sense. Or, maybe Missy was lying when she said she only told one lie. |
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Dec 8, 2015 21:22:56 GMT
Are we forgetting that that isn't possible, considering we've seen the Doctor as a young boy and the series has established the first Doctor was William Hartnell as opposed to a young girl? Maybe Hartnell's Doctor was transgendered in the more traditional, human sense. Or, maybe Missy was lying when she said she only told one lie. Probably the latter. |
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Post by mrperson on Dec 8, 2015 22:52:02 GMT
I actually thought of a better example than the president analogy. When the Doctor and Amy took Van Gogh to the future, none of his paintings disappeared from the museum, and Bill Nighy didn't start talking about how Van Gogh mysteriously disappeared. They still went to a future where Van Gogh spent another year painting and then killed himself. Ah, that is indeed a good point. Well, I don't intend to drag it out any longer. What's done as done. |
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Post by glutamodo on Dec 9, 2015 4:30:58 GMT
Okay, these last two episodes were good to watch but after thinking about them all of the flaws that others have pointed out come out more and more for me.
The whole taking Clara out of time and letting her loose... that actually didn't bother me that much. I like "hard" science fiction but Dr Who, and time travel in general, is not that. It's fantasy with a scientific veneer... and I guess I only like fantasy when it sets out it's rules and lives by them. The Laws Of Time as laid out in Doctor Who though, are a swiss cheese rulebook. And that does bother me at times, but the fact that Clara was taken out of time like that, doesn't actually bug me.
Now, I would have rather liked someone to have mentioned the name Charlotte Pollard to the Doctor before he left Gallifrey... a very similar situation, but this time he did it intentionally. And we don't know what the consequences of it are going to be this time. (in Moffatville, probably nothing)
One really big thing that bugged me was how the Sisterhood of Karn showed up. Really. So they not only knew where Gallifrey was, but had the means to get there easily. And they didn't tell the Doctor. Right.
I actually have no idea what Gallifrey's timeline is on NuWho now. I don't even want to discuss it in detail because I can make no sense of it. I don't know if should bother to go rewatch the Gallifrey-related stories before listening to the War Doctor set. Somehow I don't think it would help.
Anyway, the other big problem I've had with this whole season is about "Me" - the whole story of her immortality. The Doctor saves here by cobbling up some convenient materials he had at hand and, basically, creates a immortality machine. I cannot fathom that "Me" survives until the End Of Time without others coming to know about her "condition" - and once a thing is known to be possible, it makes it more likely to be duplicated. So don't tell me she managed to not get studied, poked, prodded etc over the millennia... in fact I'm surprised she hadn't been taken apart atom by atom at some point to get at her secret. And with that secret out, I'm surprised there was not a huge crowd of immortals waiting there at The End, not just "Me".
About that immortality... one thing that bugs me is that, well, nothing lasts forever. Yes it was a good plot device to have Ashildir's memory not able to keep up with the passage of time (but that also makes her End Of Time encounter with the Doctor a bit dodgy, she speaks too comfortably about events from a gazillion years ago, even if she re-read that chapter in her diary constantly), but I just can't imagine that the device the Doctor created to keep her going would last until the end of eternity like that. And despite the memory loss, I can't see anyone wanting to live that long... (Douglas Adams addressed that humorously with his Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged). I would almost tend to guess that Ashildir didn't live out all those years but used some other form of time travel (suspended animation or a time machine of some kind) to bring her to that point quicker. But I just cannot accept that entropy would allow her to exist truly as an immortal.
But it's amazing at how much I'm willing to overlook by having the Doctor steal another TARDIS with a Type 40 1.0 Desktop Theme. I did like the sound design they did for that TARDIS, even if some sonic elements, like the door, are from later on in the series (actually, I wouldn't have minded the 1980s-era "arrival chime" when they landed at the End Of Time)
I've never "loved" the sonic screwdriver, I see it the way JNT did, it makes things too easy for the Doctor. But I quickly came to hate the sonic shades. I hope they stay on that counter in the TARDISDINER forever... Not sure if I like the look of this new sonic screwdriver that his TARDIS spat at the Doctor, but I'll take it over the Ray-Bans any day.
Okay, enough babbling.... |
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Post by Ela on Dec 9, 2015 5:09:56 GMT
Why would you think that the Sisterhood of Karn wouldn't know where Gallifrey is?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 8:40:20 GMT
Eventually she'll go back, and from the Raven's point of view it will be as if she was never gone. As if she was never gone, yes, but that's in the same sense that you could change history by kidnapping the President, but you could snap history back into place by going back to return him. In the interim, however, an alternate timeline would exist. Here the alternate timeline is one in which the raven never hits Clara because Clara vanishes from in front of it, so it should keep chasing - unless the Timelords really are freezing time around Trap Street until Clara is reinserted. I dunno. I'm being a bit nitpicky with this, but it still doesn't really make sense to me absent that off-screen "fix". But that's why he needed the time lords, a only their extraction chamber technology allows him to extract Clara while freezing the possibilities. There is no alternate timeline because it all happens in that second. Time is relative. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 9:08:34 GMT
As if she was never gone, yes, but that's in the same sense that you could change history by kidnapping the President, but you could snap history back into place by going back to return him. In the interim, however, an alternate timeline would exist. Here the alternate timeline is one in which the raven never hits Clara because Clara vanishes from in front of it, so it should keep chasing - unless the Timelords really are freezing time around Trap Street until Clara is reinserted. I dunno. I'm being a bit nitpicky with this, but it still doesn't really make sense to me absent that off-screen "fix". But that's why he needed the time lords, a only their extraction chamber technology allows him to extract Clara while freezing the possibilities. There is no alternate timeline because it all happens in that second. Time is relative. Ahh... It's a time bubble, the kind that froze Yrcarnos and the rebelling Alphan on Thoros Beta in Mindwarp. That section of space is cauterised while the Time Lords perform a temporary extraction in a section of the Capitol that (much like a TARDIS) is dissevered from local spacetime. Once their business is concluded, the Gallifreyans place the individual that was removed, back into their own timestream. Either by force or through mutual compliance. That either means that until Clara comes back, whomever encounters the Trap Street will become frozen in time or another causal paradox has been generated. You know... The kind of tampering in cause and effect that the Doctor warned the Master about in Logopolis? The kind that resulted in the destruction of half the universe? The kind that allowed anti-time access through Charley Pollard when her death aboard the R101 was averted? Here's hoping she gets back... Soonish... Actually, the more I think about it, the more this reminds me of the Doctor and Clara cheating Amelia Earhart's death; only for her to perish under thoroughly unpleasant circumstances later on. Time has a funny habit of making sure certain events are immutable in the Doctor Who universe. |
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Post by glutamodo on Dec 9, 2015 10:13:46 GMT
Why would you think that the Sisterhood of Karn wouldn't know where Gallifrey is? That wasn't actually my point. My point was that if the Doctor was really so upset at the end of last season about not finding Gallifrey, then at the start of this season he's seen to visit Karn... he should have known they would be the ones to ask in the first place, really. And even if they didn't want tell him, I don't think he'd settle for that if he really did want to know. |
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Post by seeley on Dec 9, 2015 10:24:47 GMT
Why would you think that the Sisterhood of Karn wouldn't know where Gallifrey is? For the same reason the Doctor doesn't know, surely? Mind, I haven't seen Hellbent, so I might be missing something. |
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Post by mrperson on Dec 9, 2015 16:54:04 GMT
To re-raise another point...
We know Davros and the Daleks are back. They have fleets (Time of the Doctor, Into the Dalek, etc). They rebuilt Skaro and only one city on it has some structural damage from rotting Dalek (Magician's Apprentice/Witche's Familiar). We also know they can find the Doctor anywhere by using the democratic snake creature. (Latter episodes).
So.... why aren't they fighting the Timelords as predicted? (Time of the Doctor).
And what happened to all the other leftover horrors from the Time War? (The End of Time)
I don't like it when things are built up and then just forgotten.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 9, 2015 17:20:14 GMT
The Time Lords are hiding way in the distant future, after the Daleks and most other races are gone. Few even know that the Time Lords have returned to the universe. The Sisterhood are immortal, so they are still alive where Gallifrey is hiding. They didn't know where Gallifrey was in The Magician's Apprentice, but billions of years passed in between that and Hell Bent.
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Post by hackmodford on Dec 9, 2015 17:21:50 GMT
I don't like it when things are built up and then just forgotten. That's just Moffat's "style" from what I can tell. He does some really fantastic build ups though  |
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Post by mrperson on Dec 9, 2015 17:30:36 GMT
The Time Lords are hiding way in the distant future, after the Daleks and most other races are gone. Few even know that the Time Lords have returned to the universe. The Sisterhood are immortal, so they are still alive where Gallifrey is hiding. They didn't know where Gallifrey was in The Magician's Apprentice, but billions of years passed in between that and Hell Bent. Except that the Daleks have time-travel technology on par with the Timelords. Hence they were about to win the Time War when the Doctor hid Gallifrey in another universe. They still had the same time travel and time-scanning technology that they used in the Time War when, in The Magician's Apprentice, they were easily able to find the Doctor in dark ages Britain. That is being completely ignored, as is all the build-up about the horrors of the time war in RTD's era. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 18:18:04 GMT
But that's why he needed the time lords, a only their extraction chamber technology allows him to extract Clara while freezing the possibilities. There is no alternate timeline because it all happens in that second. Time is relative. Ahh... It's a time bubble, the kind that froze Yrcarnos and the rebelling Alphan on Thoros Beta in Mindwarp. That section of space is cauterised while the Time Lords perform a temporary extraction in a section of the Capitol that (much like a TARDIS) is dissevered from local spacetime. Once their business is concluded, the Gallifreyans place the individual that was removed, back into their own timestream. Either by force or through mutual compliance. That either means that until Clara comes back, whomever encounters the Trap Street will become frozen in time or another causal paradox has been generated. You know... The kind of tampering in cause and effect that the Doctor warned the Master about in Logopolis? The kind that resulted in the destruction of half the universe? The kind that allowed anti-time access through Charley Pollard when her death aboard the R101 was averted? Here's hoping she gets back... Soonish... Actually, the more I think about it, the more this reminds me of the Doctor and Clara cheating Amelia Earhart's death; only for her to perish under thoroughly unpleasant circumstances later on. Time has a funny habit of making sure certain events are immutable in the Doctor Who universe. Yes, Clara running off in that TARDIS isn't going to meet a good end. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 18:19:52 GMT
Why would you think that the Sisterhood of Karn wouldn't know where Gallifrey is? For the same reason the Doctor doesn't know, surely? Mind, I haven't seen Hellbent, so I might be missing something. You're really reading the wrong thread then. Go off and watch it. Love it or hate it, it's got to be seen to appreciate the arguing |
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 9, 2015 18:24:33 GMT
The Time Lords are hiding way in the distant future, after the Daleks and most other races are gone. Few even know that the Time Lords have returned to the universe. The Sisterhood are immortal, so they are still alive where Gallifrey is hiding. They didn't know where Gallifrey was in The Magician's Apprentice, but billions of years passed in between that and Hell Bent. Except that the Daleks have time-travel technology on par with the Timelords. Hence they were about to win the Time War when the Doctor hid Gallifrey in another universe. They still had the same time travel and time-scanning technology that they used in the Time War when, in The Magician's Apprentice, they were easily able to find the Doctor in dark ages Britain. That is being completely ignored, as is all the build-up about the horrors of the time war in RTD's era. The Daleks don't know that the Time Lords are back though, and even if they did, they don't know what era they are in. One of the novels describes the Epoch of Mass Time Travel, as the periods of history where time travel is common. Gallifrey is now well past this period, and history is huge. The Daleks wouldn't know where to look. |
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Post by mrperson on Dec 9, 2015 19:14:39 GMT
Except that the Daleks have time-travel technology on par with the Timelords. Hence they were about to win the Time War when the Doctor hid Gallifrey in another universe. They still had the same time travel and time-scanning technology that they used in the Time War when, in The Magician's Apprentice, they were easily able to find the Doctor in dark ages Britain. That is being completely ignored, as is all the build-up about the horrors of the time war in RTD's era. The Daleks don't know that the Time Lords are back though, and even if they did, they don't know what era they are in. One of the novels describes the Epoch of Mass Time Travel, as the periods of history where time travel is common. Gallifrey is now well past this period, and history is huge. The Daleks wouldn't know where to look. Well, first, I don't think what some random novel says makes my critique about something on the official show wrong. Anyway, as with other point, further argument may not be productive. I'm simply not buying that the Daleks, who fought a war across all of space and time to the point of defeating the Timelords (and would have won but for Day of the Doctor), who also knew for a fact that the Timelords were trying to get back - the entire plot driver of Time of the Doctor - AND who can find the Doctor anywhere in spacetime with ease....just....... ....forgot and became clueless. The sudden incompetence of the Daleks and the silent disappearance of all horrors from the time war contradict multiple episodes penned in both RTD and Moffat eras. I think that's bad. This is literally the only show on television where I have to make a bunch of stuff up that didn't happen on-screen to explain this kind of inconsistency. (Also, the original series and BF audios manage to avoid tripping over themselves like this) |
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