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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 24, 2021 15:54:06 GMT
Kind of agree the ability for the Doctor to see both sides of a grey area is gone in the TV Show 13th's views and actions are or work out 100% right nearly 100% of time and the rare occasion they're not, shes not dealing with the consequences other characters are. Regards mark687 At least she didn't try to split up the romance of her companion so she could slide in & take their ex's place.
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Post by mark687 on May 24, 2021 16:10:18 GMT
Kind of agree the ability for the Doctor to see both sides of a grey area is gone in the TV Show 13th's views and actions are or work out 100% right nearly 100% of time and the rare occasion they're not, shes not dealing with the consequences other characters are. Regards mark687 At least she didn't try to split up the romance of her companion so she could slide in & take their ex's place. The Danny secnerio was daringly conceived but poorly executed trying to work PTSD into a romance plot for a Family audience plus Clara was too often driven by wander lust rather then the desire for a "simple" Stay at home relationship. With Rose again I'd say her choice rather then the Doctor sliding in. Regards mark687
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Post by timegirl on May 24, 2021 16:10:51 GMT
Kind of agree the ability for the Doctor to see both sides of a grey area is gone in the TV Show 13th's views and actions are or work out 100% right nearly 100% of time and the rare occasion they're not, shes not dealing with the consequences other characters are. Regards mark687 At least she didn't try to split up the romance of her companion so she could slide in & take their ex's place. 13 had other moral issues that weren’t addressed like racism, inhumane euthanasia (suffocating the spiders), and taking the side of dystopian corporations over the rights of the human workers. 12 just had overpowering romantic feelings for Clara he didn’t know how to properly address due to social awkwardness and an inferiority complex caused him feeling self conscious about his older appearance and difference in species that would make it difficult to give Clara a normal life with him. All I am trying to say is 13 has as many flaws as other incarnations that should be properly addressed. Like I said before how about you and I just agree to disagree on this particular debate so we don’t go around in circles because neither one of us is going to change our minds?
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 24, 2021 16:28:53 GMT
At least she didn't try to split up the romance of her companion so she could slide in & take their ex's place. 13 had other moral issues that weren’t addressed like racism, inhumane euthanasia (suffocating the spiders), and taking the side of dystopian corporations over the rights of the human workers. 12 just had overpowering romantic feelings for Clara he didn’t know how to properly address due to social awkwardness and an inferiority complex caused him feeling self conscious about his older appearance and difference in species that would make it difficult to give Clara a normal life with him. All I am trying to say is 13 has as many flaws as other incarnations that should be properly addressed. Like I said before how about you and I just agree to disagree on this particular debate so we don’t go around in circles because neither one of us is going to change our minds? Agree to disagree when you finish by claiming 13 is racist. Unacceptable.
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Post by timegirl on May 24, 2021 16:33:24 GMT
13 had other moral issues that weren’t addressed like racism, inhumane euthanasia (suffocating the spiders), and taking the side of dystopian corporations over the rights of the human workers. 12 just had overpowering romantic feelings for Clara he didn’t know how to properly address due to social awkwardness and an inferiority complex caused him feeling self conscious about his older appearance and difference in species that would make it difficult to give Clara a normal life with him. All I am trying to say is 13 has as many flaws as other incarnations that should be properly addressed. Like I said before how about you and I just agree to disagree on this particular debate so we don’t go around in circles because neither one of us is going to change our minds? Agree to disagree when you finish by claiming 13 is racist. Unacceptable. She is in certain circumstances, not all the time, but there are clear examples where she is racist that should have either been addressed or challenged. Edit: I do like certain things about 13, I don’t hate her incarnation. I just think that the writers approach to her morality should be addressed and developed more to better service her character development.
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Post by timegirl on May 24, 2021 17:48:06 GMT
Yes!😄Also I wonder what 12 would do if someone tried to pluck his eyebrows?! Venusian Nerve pinch to make them drop the tweezers. then pluck their eyebrows and add them to his own? Regards mark687 Yes!😂Unless he actually wanted to tidy his eyebrows for a certain special someone 🤔😉
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 17:50:03 GMT
With 13, i have the same issues that i have with 11. There is that darkness present in the new who incarnations and the show does sometimes bring it up - the girl who waited brings up the 11th docs darkness, villa brings up 13s - but they never fully address this like they do with 12, 9 and to a lesser extent but still very much their, 10. All those doctors are called out whereas even though their is bad things the13th doctor does (like using the masters skin colour against him) the show never acknowledges its bad and so it sort of puts her actions in a good light even if the actions aren’t good.
(Not that you necessarily have to have darkness. Im fine with the doctor being a cosmic hobo like the 2nd doctor but if you want to have the shade to the character i feel you need to properly address it and punish or let their be a consequence otherwise you end up with a ton of mixed messages from the show and it makes the doctor look bad and the people around her bad for not questioning her.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 17:53:04 GMT
There's certainly room for more exploration of Jodie's character. I went on (and on..and on) a lot in her first series that she was designed to almost be intentionally innoffensive. A lack of character study was a result of there not being much character there to explore. Jodie never got a Heaven Sent or a Doctor Falls or a Listen to explore who this incarnation is and what makes her unique. Not holding her to account for things is related to this, Chibnall doesn't see that, I don't think, as what the show "is", or maybe should be. Moffat did and made it quite a big part of his tenure in places..
And that's rather the point - a lot of the issues discussed by others above are not down to the characters at all but the person in charge of them. Moffat clearly had an interest in dealing with the idea of The Doctor being imperfect. Not just Capaldi - even Matt's Doctor realised he "got too big" by the end of Series 6. Moffat wanted to address the grey areas a lot more. Chibnall...not so much. His Doctor, and unlike Moffat we only have one incarnation to talk about so we can't see the full picture yet, is nowhere near as complex or reflective. But at the same time that can be seen as intentional on Chibnall's part to try and get younger audiences back into the show. He talked about making it more open and newbie friendly. It is, I think. Yet storytelling wise it's not as strong. I think you can have a family friendly Doctor Who that still features big issues AND the introspective ones but it's not done very well by either of them. RTD was maybe a solid middle ground but even then he made Tennant so insufferable with the specials I couldn't wait for Matt to come in.
I think the big difference is Moffat thought The Doctor was interesting in themselves as a character and worth exploring in depth. Chibnall thinks the things that happen about her, and that she can do, are more interesting. Chibnall sees the story The Doctor finds themselves in as the key. Moffat was into seeing how the story was changed by The Doctor and how the story changed The Doctor in return. It's two very differing approaches, honestly.
There's a fine line between character pieces exploring an imperfect lead and nazel-gaving. The show has to be conscious of that and arguably to the public (if not me and certainly not Timegirl) lost it's way in Series 9 when the ratings fell and crucially people didn't bother catching up on I-Player. For the first time in the new series, a good chunk of the audience from the series previous didn't watch the show live at all OR online. Matt's ratings dipped a bit from Tennant's by S7 but his I-Player figures were big, the +28s always being very kind. I know some think ratings don't matter but when we're comparing era close together it allows us to see what the general public, broadly, think of the differences so they are notable in gauging reactions en masse. Jodie's first year was a ratings smash but how much of that was rubbernecking viewers wanting to see the "controversial" new Doctor and how would have watched anyway if it was another guy in the role we'll never know. Certainly a lot didn't come back for Jodie's second run where the +28 viewer figures are pretty much like Capaldi's last year so broadly speaking they've both ended up (with the caveat Jodie still has a season to go) appealing to about the same size of audience, if not the same audience.
More character development for Jodie would be great for me as that's something I like in the show. But again, it interests me that the ratings for the Capaldi and Jodie eras have kinda come to the same level. Very different directions...very similiar destination.
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Post by timegirl on May 24, 2021 18:00:13 GMT
There's certainly room for more exploration of Jodie's character. I went on (and on..and on) a lot in her first series that she was designed to almost be intentionally innoffensive. A lack of character study was a result of there not being much character there to explore. Jodie never got a Heaven Sent or a Doctor Falls or a Listen to explore who this incarnation is and what makes her unique. Not holding her to account for things is related to this, Chibnall doesn't see that, I don't think, as what the show "is", or maybe should be. Moffat did and made it quite a big part of his tenure in places.. And that's rather the point - a lot of the issues discussed by others above are not down to the characters at all but the person in charge of them. Moffat clearly had an interest in dealing with the idea of The Doctor being imperfect. Not just Capaldi - even Matt's Doctor realised he "got too big" by the end of Series 6. Moffat wanted to address the grey areas a lot more. Chibnall...not so much. His Doctor, and unlike Moffat we only have one incarnation to talk about so we can't see the full picture yet, is nowhere near as complex or reflective. But at the same time that can be seen as intentional on Chibnall's part to try and get younger audiences back into the show. He talked about making it more open and newbie friendly. It is, I think. Yet storytelling wise it's not as strong. I think you can have a family friendly Doctor Who that still features big issues AND the introspective ones but it's not done very well by either of them. RTD was maybe a solid middle ground but even then he made Tennant so insufferable with the specials I couldn't wait for Matt to come in. I think the big difference is Moffat thought The Doctor was interesting in themselves as a character and worth exploring in depth. Chibnall thinks the things that happen about her, and that she can do, are more interesting. Chibnall sees the story The Doctor finds themselves in as the key. Moffat was into seeing how the story was changed by The Doctor and how the story changed The Doctor in return. It's two very differing approaches, honestly. There's a fine line between character pieces exploring an imperfect lead and nazel-gaving. The show has to be conscious of that and arguably to the public (if not me and certainly not Timegirl) lost it's way in Series 9 when the ratings fell and crucially people didn't bother catching up on I-Player. For the first time in the new series, a good chunk of the audience from the series previous didn't watch the show live at all OR online. Matt's ratings dipped a bit from Tennant's by S7 but his I-Player figures were big, the +28s always being very kind. I know some think ratings don't matter but when we're comparing era close together it allows us to see what the general public, broadly, think of the differences so they are notable in gauging reactions en masse. Jodie's first year was a ratings smash but how much of that was rubbernecking viewers wanting to see the "controversial" new Doctor and how would have watched anyway if it was another guy in the role we'll never know. Certainly a lot didn't come back for Jodie's second run where the +28 viewer figures are pretty much like Capaldi's last year so broadly speaking they've both ended up (with the caveat Jodie still has a season to go) appealing to about the same size of audience, if not the same audience. More character development for Jodie would be great for me as that's something I like in the show. But again, it interests me that the ratings for the Capaldi and Jodie eras have kinda come to the same level. Very different directions...very similiar destination. Very well said🙂 Much better than I could have put it!
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Post by x2magneto on May 24, 2021 21:58:41 GMT
In an homage to the Batman Animated Series episode entitled "Almost Got 'em," we find the Masters joining together for a polite night of Texas Hold 'em and they each tell anthology stories that play on their various personality quirks.
Another idea:
An Ocean's 13 styled heist movie where the Masters have to Mission Impossible the hell out of some big Bond type mastermind in swinging 60s or 70s earth to steal a macguffin. The War Master is the one who brings them all together and acts as the 'Dan Briggs' type leader. Missy acts as the 'Cinnamon Carter' who has to charm the pants off of the bad guy, Saxon's a loose cannon who nearly blows the score and ends up being replaced mid mission in a huge, high tension moment where Reborn has to out him or something, Deathworm's the smooth talking card shark who has to buy into some high stakes gambling tournament. The Young Master is Deathworm's partner and plays the oafish and naive heir who's about to lose his shirt, but they end up cleaning up big. Big time getaway at the end. Car chase! With laser screwdrivers! Las Vegas!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 22:44:16 GMT
In an homage to the Batman Animated Series episode entitled "Almost Got 'em," we find the Masters joining together for a polite night of Texas Hold 'em and they each tell anthology stories that play on their various personality quirks. Another idea: An Ocean's 13 styled heist movie where the Masters have to Mission Impossible the hell out of some big Bond type mastermind in swinging 60s or 70s earth to steal a macguffin. The War Master is the one who brings them all together and acts as the 'Dan Briggs' type leader. Missy acts as the 'Cinnamon Carter' who has to charm the pants off of the bad guy, Saxon's a loose cannon who nearly blows the score and ends up being replaced mid mission in a huge, high tension moment where Reborn has to out him or something, Deathworm's the smooth talking card shark who has to buy into some high stakes gambling tournament. The Young Master is Deathworm's partner and plays the oafish and naive heir who's about to lose his shirt, but they end up cleaning up big. Big time getaway at the end. Car chase! With laser screwdrivers! Las Vegas! As an addendum: "[...] charm the pants off of the bad guy," and constantly resist her natural urge to just off him on reflex. The night is spent with longing looks down conspicuously empty stairwells and inelegant swigs of cyanide-laced champagne. She just can't help herself. It's a constant struggle to outdo her own assassination attempts for the rest of the evening.
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Post by timegirl on May 24, 2021 22:53:11 GMT
In an homage to the Batman Animated Series episode entitled "Almost Got 'em," we find the Masters joining together for a polite night of Texas Hold 'em and they each tell anthology stories that play on their various personality quirks. Another idea: An Ocean's 13 styled heist movie where the Masters have to Mission Impossible the hell out of some big Bond type mastermind in swinging 60s or 70s earth to steal a macguffin. The War Master is the one who brings them all together and acts as the 'Dan Briggs' type leader. Missy acts as the 'Cinnamon Carter' who has to charm the pants off of the bad guy, Saxon's a loose cannon who nearly blows the score and ends up being replaced mid mission in a huge, high tension moment where Reborn has to out him or something, Deathworm's the smooth talking card shark who has to buy into some high stakes gambling tournament. The Young Master is Deathworm's partner and plays the oafish and naive heir who's about to lose his shirt, but they end up cleaning up big. Big time getaway at the end. Car chase! With laser screwdrivers! Las Vegas! This needs to be real! BF should hire you to write Master stories!
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Post by timegirl on May 25, 2021 2:53:32 GMT
A companion discovers that the Doctor has been preforming strange and painful experiments on themselves. When the companion confronts the Doctor on this, the Doctor only sees the benefits of the experiments even when the companion points out all the things that could go wrong.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 3:01:25 GMT
A companion discovers that the Doctor has been preforming strange and painful experiments on themselves. When the companion confronts the Doctor on this, the Doctor only sees the benefits of the experiments even when the companion points out all the things that could go wrong. Depending on how much you believe the Valeyard -- and, you know... pinch of salt, he is basically the Revisionist Doctor -- his creation may have come as the result of an incarnation of the Doctor attempting to break the limit on their regenerative cycle. Just before their final life.
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Post by timegirl on May 25, 2021 3:10:26 GMT
A companion discovers that the Doctor has been preforming strange and painful experiments on themselves. When the companion confronts the Doctor on this, the Doctor only sees the benefits of the experiments even when the companion points out all the things that could go wrong. Depending on how much you believe the Valeyard -- and, you know... pinch of salt, he is basically the Revisionist Doctor -- his creation may have come as the result of an incarnation of the Doctor attempting to break the limit on their regenerative cycle. Just before their final life. Interesting!🤔That does sound about right! On a similar note, I would love to have more stories where the Doctor just goes full on mad scientist. I could definitely see the Doctor having a secret laboratory hidden somewhere in the TARDIS.
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Post by theillusiveman on May 25, 2021 6:44:25 GMT
What if it turns out that the 13th Doctor is actually not the Doctor but an imposter and. 12 shows up
Could be the biggest twist and helps explain why 13 is out of character from the other doctors
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 25, 2021 7:26:56 GMT
What if it turns out that the 13th Doctor is actually not the Doctor but an imposter and. 12 shows up Could be the biggest twist and helps explain why 13 is out of character from the other doctors Then I'd stop watching. PS - 13 isn't out of character from the other doctors. All the doctors share similar traits but have slightly different personality quirks (look at the difference between 6 & 5 for example).
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Post by sherlock on May 25, 2021 7:33:32 GMT
What if it turns out that the 13th Doctor is actually not the Doctor but an imposter and. 12 shows up Could be the biggest twist and helps explain why 13 is out of character from the other doctors She’s not really out of character though.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on May 25, 2021 8:53:36 GMT
What if it turns out that the 13th Doctor is actually not the Doctor but an imposter and. 12 shows up Could be the biggest twist and helps explain why 13 is out of character from the other doctors Could be an interesting Unbound audio, but on the main show? No - it would undermine both 13 and 12 massively and doesn't add a whole lot beyond shock value.
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Post by mark687 on May 25, 2021 9:35:53 GMT
What if it turns out that the 13th Doctor is actually not the Doctor but an imposter and. 12 shows up Could be the biggest twist and helps explain why 13 is out of character from the other doctors Then I'd stop watching. PS - 13 isn't out of character from the other doctors. All the doctors share similar traits but have slightly different personality quirks (look at the difference between 6 & 5 for example). As I've said before though I don't think I've seen a flatter note take on it since 5 when she did change note occasionally in Series 11 it was 10 to the manic extreme. Regards mark687
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