mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on May 19, 2021 21:09:38 GMT
As others have said, although I really like the Eleven, with him being in the next Sixth Doctor boxset I would have preferred a different incarnation of the Collective.
Although with a series title of Nemesis perhaps The Collective will be the arcs villain and will appear in different incarnations. It would certainly be apt to have a former Miss Marple, Julia McKenzie appear in a series called Nemesis.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 19, 2021 22:19:07 GMT
Who wouldn’t want UNIT versus the Nine in a series of heist capers? Or UNIT versus the Six a la Killing Eve?
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Post by number13 on May 19, 2021 22:27:36 GMT
Ah damn, guess UNIT’s still crossover ground zero then. I get that Big Finish love working with Mark Bonnar and love the Eleven, but he’s been in quite a lot now. If they want to keep using the Collective (as that is still inherently brilliant concept) why not one of 9 incarnations we’ve never heard before. I was left feeling I’d heard everything I needed to from the villain by the end of Ravenous, rather than begging for more. I’ve never really seen the Curator as anything other than an Easter Egg. He’s something a writer can throw in as a nod (see the excellent TLV short story Canaries) more than he is a character. I haven’t heard Stranded at all, so maybe that fleshed him out more. But otherwise I don’t really see any reason to be excited by his presence. Harry and Ellie just being around in this time period is an oddity, but I guess that’s the point. They’re more intriguing to me as they’re a part of a storyline we’ve not heard at all before, rather than a past character dropping in to do their thing (I know Harry is an old character, but his partnership with Ellie is an unknown quantity at least). The Ice Warrior story they’re in does sound most interesting of the set.
Also it’s clear that this UNIT saga is post-Day of the Doctor, but oddly no indication of the Zygon status quo in the synopses.
Honestly was hoping this new start would kick the UNIT series into gear, but it’s sounding awfully like the same old, same old again. I will wait on reviews I think. Off topic rant coming but....I'd love them to find a way to change one of the things about the Moffat era I REALLY hate; Z-67. For those that have forgotten or never saw the Zygon Immersion/Inversion in S9, we find out that after Terror Of The Zygons, Harry invented a gas that would kill Zygons. And not just one Zygon - it would take to the atmosphere and in a chain-reaction kill all Zygons on the planet. And not peacefully either - it mutates their shapeshifting gene and turns them inside out... Capaldi's Doctor calls him an "imbecile" when he hears about it. Now, to me, that's all just a very silly way of getting to Capaldi being able to nod to Tom's kinda legendary "HARRY SULLIVAN IS AN IMBECILE" line. But if it has to involve Harry developing not just a weapon but something to cause genocide of an entire species then..yeah - can we write something in contradicting that at some point BF? Peter Harness, Steven Moffat and Peter Capaldi...you'd think one of them would have said "Doesn't really seem in keeping with Harry that, does it? Especially since he was literally with The Doctor debating genocide on Skaro" Capaldi - my fave Doc. Moffat (at his best) - my fave Who writer. But that few lines turning Harry into a monster just to get a cheap nostaglia pop from very few people for the "imbecile reference?" No, thank you. Not today. One hundred thousand 'likes'.
Oh my goodness that scene made me fume! A total lack of respect for - or possibly even worse in a showrunner, a lack of understanding of other people's respect and affection for - characters, writers and eras.
Harry was an all-round good bloke and that's that.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 0:28:01 GMT
Off topic rant coming but....I'd love them to find a way to change one of the things about the Moffat era I REALLY hate; Z-67. For those that have forgotten or never saw the Zygon Immersion/Inversion in S9, we find out that after Terror Of The Zygons, Harry invented a gas that would kill Zygons. And not just one Zygon - it would take to the atmosphere and in a chain-reaction kill all Zygons on the planet. And not peacefully either - it mutates their shapeshifting gene and turns them inside out... Capaldi's Doctor calls him an "imbecile" when he hears about it. Now, to me, that's all just a very silly way of getting to Capaldi being able to nod to Tom's kinda legendary "HARRY SULLIVAN IS AN IMBECILE" line. But if it has to involve Harry developing not just a weapon but something to cause genocide of an entire species then..yeah - can we write something in contradicting that at some point BF? Peter Harness, Steven Moffat and Peter Capaldi...you'd think one of them would have said "Doesn't really seem in keeping with Harry that, does it? Especially since he was literally with The Doctor debating genocide on Skaro" Capaldi - my fave Doc. Moffat (at his best) - my fave Who writer. But that few lines turning Harry into a monster just to get a cheap nostaglia pop from very few people for the "imbecile reference?" No, thank you. Not today. One hundred thousand 'likes'.
Oh my goodness that scene made me fume! A total lack of respect for - or possibly even worse in a showrunner, a lack of understanding of other people's respect and affection for - characters, writers and eras.
Harry was an all-round good bloke and that's that.
Yeah, maybe there's an adventure where Inferno-world Harry comes over and does it but the Harry we know? Not in a million years. I appreciate Sir Wearer of Hats' headcanon to explain it but clearly that's not even remotely in the text as presented. It either didn't occur to any of Moffat, Harness, Capaldi or whoever else was involved or worse...it did and they didn't care, just to get to the "imbecile" gag because it tickled them. People go on about "Cyber-Brig" being disrespectful but at least that version of the Brig, as morbid and macabre as it is, broke his programming and saved his daughter's life. Seems a bit more respectful than what they did to Harry's legacy but that doesn't get mentioned a tenth as much. If you were a new series only viewer and heard it..you'd be thinking "Sounds like the Doctor used to keep some pretty bad company with that Harry guy". To me it's galling especially because of his prescence, as I said, in Genesis. It's THE Who story about the morals of genocide. Maybe all involved should have rewatched that first before pinning building not just a WMD but a weapon og genocide on Harry.
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Post by theillusiveman on May 20, 2021 6:58:53 GMT
One hundred thousand 'likes'.
Oh my goodness that scene made me fume! A total lack of respect for - or possibly even worse in a showrunner, a lack of understanding of other people's respect and affection for - characters, writers and eras.
Harry was an all-round good bloke and that's that.
Yeah, maybe there's an adventure where Inferno-world Harry comes over and does it but the Harry we know? Not in a million years. I appreciate Sir Wearer of Hats' headcanon to explain it but clearly that's not even remotely in the text as presented. It either didn't occur to any of Moffat, Harness, Capaldi or whoever else was involved or worse...it did and they didn't care, just to get to the "imbecile" gag because it tickled them. People go on about "Cyber-Brig" being disrespectful but at least that version of the Brig, as morbid and macabre as it is, broke his programming and saved his daughter's life. Seems a bit more respectful than what they did to Harry's legacy but that doesn't get mentioned a tenth as much. If you were a new series only viewer and heard it..you'd be thinking "Sounds like the Doctor used to keep some pretty bad company with that Harry guy". To me it's galling especially because of his prescence, as I said, in Genesis. It's THE Who story about the morals of genocide. Maybe all involved should have rewatched that first before pinning building not just a WMD but a weapon og genocide on Harry. Honestly I actually love the concept of a cyber brig, it is the closest thing we have to Kroton the cybermen wirh a soul in live action and it gives Viewers a chance to see how they can take the character and the cybermen in general to new angles Moffatt’s character assassinafion of Harry is less forgivable then agian Moffatt had a habit of messing up established characters (1st and 8th doctors spring instantly to mind)
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2021 7:37:23 GMT
One hundred thousand 'likes'. Oh my goodness that scene made me fume! A total lack of respect for - or possibly even worse in a showrunner, a lack of understanding of other people's respect and affection for - characters, writers and eras. Harry was an all-round good bloke and that's that.
Yeah, maybe there's an adventure where Inferno-world Harry comes over and does it but the Harry we know? Not in a million years. I appreciate Sir Wearer of Hats' headcanon to explain it but clearly that's not even remotely in the text as presented. It either didn't occur to any of Moffat, Harness, Capaldi or whoever else was involved or worse...it did and they didn't care, just to get to the "imbecile" gag because it tickled them. People go on about "Cyber-Brig" being disrespectful but at least that version of the Brig, as morbid and macabre as it is, broke his programming and saved his daughter's life. Seems a bit more respectful than what they did to Harry's legacy but that doesn't get mentioned a tenth as much. If you were a new series only viewer and heard it..you'd be thinking "Sounds like the Doctor used to keep some pretty bad company with that Harry guy". To me it's galling especially because of his prescence, as I said, in Genesis. It's THE Who story about the morals of genocide. Maybe all involved should have rewatched that first before pinning building not just a WMD but a weapon og genocide on Harry. It's an odd moment because, in a different context, you could get away with it. You could have Harry be linked to a weapon of that nature, but the Doctor's reaction doesn't fit either of their characters. He jumps to "imbecile" as though he's saying Of course, which is oddly callous of him. Dismayed or shocked, I could get, but straightforwardly biting... No, it doesn't work. More unfortunately, Ian Marter covered a similar subject in Harry Sullivan's War when he wrote it. I posted a page a while back as a supplement of developments in Tony Jones's Tuesday story (from " A better world!" forward): (The Cyber-Brig... For me, it rubs me the wrong way for two reasons. The first is more broad: it has a lot more to do with a spate of Cyber-stories where they overcame the conditioning by being really, really good people. I think the reality of Cybermen is that you can be the best and brightest that your being is capable of -- and that's irrelevant. They still steal all of it away from you. You and the people that care about you never get it back. That's their horror. Worse for those who deliberately give themselves to the Cybermen. The second is that I actually prefer the quiet goodbye over the phone that the Eleventh Doctor has with the nurse in The Wedding of River Song. There's a nice follow-up, of sorts, that Paul Hanley did called Fade Away. I prefer that. It has a solemn dignity to it and it's played so well.)
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Post by masterdoctor on May 20, 2021 13:17:30 GMT
In regards to The Eleven showing up, and the recent run of crossovers for lack of a better term, we should remember that Big Finish are producing releases during a pandemic, where I am sure it makes more sense to book, plan and record with Actors they know they can, rather than actors and characters who aren't as easily available(Sylvester McCoy being a issue to record right now for example). That is just my two cents, and I am very excited for this release, so that may colour my response.
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Post by shallacatop on May 20, 2021 13:26:14 GMT
In regards to The Eleven showing up, and the recent run of crossovers for lack of a better term, we should remember that Big Finish are producing releases during a pandemic, where I am sure it makes more sense to book, plan and record with Actors they know they can, rather than actors and characters who aren't as easily available(Sylvester McCoy being a issue to record right now for example). That is just my two cents, and I am very excited for this release, so that may colour my response. Whilst true they’re recording in a pandemic, that doesn’t mean they can’t use those actors in other roles. For all the crossover sets you can look at releases recorded during that time that don’t lean into that. They’re making a conscious choice to bring back characters. I don’t think the pandemic comes into it.
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Post by mark687 on May 20, 2021 13:51:23 GMT
In regards to The Eleven showing up, and the recent run of crossovers for lack of a better term, we should remember that Big Finish are producing releases during a pandemic, where I am sure it makes more sense to book, plan and record with Actors they know they can, rather than actors and characters who aren't as easily available(Sylvester McCoy being a issue to record right now for example). That is just my two cents, and I am very excited for this release, so that may colour my response. Whilst true they’re recording in a pandemic, that doesn’t mean they can’t use those actors in other roles. For all the crossover sets you can look at releases recorded during that time that don’t lean into that. They’re making a conscious choice to bring back characters. I don’t think the pandemic comes into it. Its both who's readily available / able to record in the New Normal and popular options that'll will attract the biggest audience possible. Regards mark687
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Post by shallacatop on May 20, 2021 14:30:39 GMT
Whilst true they’re recording in a pandemic, that doesn’t mean they can’t use those actors in other roles. For all the crossover sets you can look at releases recorded during that time that don’t lean into that. They’re making a conscious choice to bring back characters. I don’t think the pandemic comes into it. Its both who's readily available / able to record in the New Normal and popular options that'll will attract the biggest audience possible. Regards mark687 I’m not so sure. If they were getting Mark Bonnar playing other characters I’d agree, but they’re consciously deciding to get him to play The Eleven. That’s what is why I’m stating they’re making the choice to bring back characters. That is Big Finish’s MO outside of a pandemic with certain ranges. You just need to look at what’s been produced during a pandemic with regulars that aren’t playing returning characters to show that it’s not forcing them to use those characters.
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Post by mark687 on May 20, 2021 14:49:20 GMT
Its both who's readily available / able to record in the New Normal and popular options that'll will attract the biggest audience possible. Regards mark687 I’m not so sure. If they were getting Mark Bonnar playing other characters I’d agree, but they’re consciously deciding to get him to play The Eleven. That’s what is why I’m stating they’re making the choice to bring back characters. That is Big Finish’s MO outside of a pandemic with certain ranges. You just need to look at what’s been produced during a pandemic with regulars that aren’t playing returning characters to show that it’s not forcing them to use those characters. Sorry so if I'm following correctly your position is reuse the same Actors for different Roles is fine but keep using them in the same audience successful Role is lack of imagination? Not arguing just genuinely curious. Regards mark687
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Post by shallacatop on May 20, 2021 15:10:09 GMT
I’m not so sure. If they were getting Mark Bonnar playing other characters I’d agree, but they’re consciously deciding to get him to play The Eleven. That’s what is why I’m stating they’re making the choice to bring back characters. That is Big Finish’s MO outside of a pandemic with certain ranges. You just need to look at what’s been produced during a pandemic with regulars that aren’t playing returning characters to show that it’s not forcing them to use those characters. Sorry so if I'm following correctly your position is reuse the same Actors for different Roles is fine but keep using them in the same audience successful Role is lack of imagination? Not arguing just genuinely curious. Regards mark687 Not at all; I never mentioned a lack of imagination for a start. The discussion was that the crossovers was potentially due to the pandemic and the limited availability of actors. I disagreed; there's nothing stopping them using those actors in other roles. Big Finish want to use crossovers so forge ahead with that; the pandemic hasn't altered that. There are other sets produced during the pandemic that haven't used returning characters, but are using Big Finish regular actors, that show it's not a driving force. I think the reality is that there's different factors. The marketing is a key one, Big Finish's fondness of working with certain actors and also the fan element of pairing X with Y in Z.
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Post by mark687 on May 20, 2021 15:13:05 GMT
Sorry so if I'm following correctly your position is reuse the same Actors for different Roles is fine but keep using them in the same audience successful Role is lack of imagination? Not arguing just genuinely curious. Regards mark687 Not at all; I never mentioned a lack of imagination for a start. The discussion was that the crossovers was potentially due to the pandemic and the limited availability of actors. I disagreed; there's nothing stopping them using those actors in other roles. Big Finish want to use crossovers so forge ahead with that; the pandemic hasn't altered that. There are other sets produced during the pandemic that haven't used returning characters, but are using Big Finish regular actors, that show it's not a driving force. I think the reality is that there's different factors. The marketing is a key one, Big Finish's fondness of working with certain actors and also the fan element of pairing X with Y in Z.I concur with you there. Regards mark687
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on May 20, 2021 15:42:53 GMT
The Twelve is better.
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Post by masterdoctor on May 20, 2021 15:52:57 GMT
Sorry so if I'm following correctly your position is reuse the same Actors for different Roles is fine but keep using them in the same audience successful Role is lack of imagination? Not arguing just genuinely curious. Regards mark687 Not at all; I never mentioned a lack of imagination for a start. The discussion was that the crossovers was potentially due to the pandemic and the limited availability of actors. I disagreed; there's nothing stopping them using those actors in other roles. Big Finish want to use crossovers so forge ahead with that; the pandemic hasn't altered that. There are other sets produced during the pandemic that haven't used returning characters, but are using Big Finish regular actors, that show it's not a driving force. I think the reality is that there's different factors. The marketing is a key one, Big Finish's fondness of working with certain actors and also the fan element of pairing X with Y in Z. I think you brought up something I forgot too, so thank you. I definitely agree that there is a marketing and fan pleasing element in there as well, so yes, different factors play into this for sure!
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Post by masterdoctor on May 20, 2021 15:55:53 GMT
I might not agree with you there, as much as I love The Twelve, though it would be really cool if The Collective serve as antagonists through various incarnations in the 4 boxset series of Nemesis. Maybe The Eleven, The Twelve, The Nine and a newly cast incarnation such as The Sixth. Though adding to that, it would be cool to have one of the less evil incarnations(The One and The Five?) helping UNIT against their other selves. EDIT: I see mbt66 mentioned this at the start of the page, so I agree with them!
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Post by grinch on May 21, 2021 7:42:54 GMT
After re reading the synopsises for this voume, I must admit I rather like the idea that the Eleven was just slumming it on some planet somewhere and it’s the fault of UNIT that he’s been unleashed on Earth.
Gives them more a certain sense of responsibility I think to tackle the problem which I like. All really depends on whether this’ll be their first encounter with the Collective now that I think about it. Could quite easily see Big Finish slip in a line saying they have this particular renegade on file as a previous incarnation visited Earth around the time when the Doctor was working for UNIT.
Naturally, this could act as a tease for a future Third Doctor Adventures boxset where we hear of such an encounter.
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 3,081
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Post by mbt66 on May 23, 2021 9:27:07 GMT
Question for those who are following Stranded - as the Curator appears in that series as well as in this, does UNIT feature in Stranded?
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Post by shallacatop on May 23, 2021 9:28:07 GMT
Question for those who are following Stranded - as the Curator appears in that series as well as in this, does UNIT feature in Stranded? No UNIT so far, only Torchwood. And there’s no indication The Curator is representing UNIT or anything like that. EDIT: Sorry I was assuming this was specifically about modern day UNIT under Kate & Osgood. The post below is more detailed.
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Post by theillusiveman on May 23, 2021 9:45:17 GMT
Question for those who are following Stranded - as the Curator appears in that series as well as in this, does UNIT feature in Stranded? There is a reference to UNIT in Volume 1 and Volume 2 has UNIT in The 1970s with The Brigadier
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