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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 20, 2021 2:29:27 GMT
As the Series 11 thread went down well a year back, I figured time to do another one about a recurring point I've noticed in reviews and comments about S12 - whereas S11 was lean and small-scale, S12 went big - big production values, big global scale and no shortage of big ideas or subplots. However, some felt that the episodes (like Spyfall, Orphan 55, Can You Hear Me and Revolution) became overburdened, pulling in too many directions, and as a result didn't land as hard as they could've emotionally. Do you think so? Or did Chibbs make the right call here?
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Post by theillusiveman on Feb 20, 2021 2:39:44 GMT
Honestly I think series 12 was overstuffed with trying to win back the fans with so many references and callbacks to the RTD era Captain Jack being a prime example of a ratings boost
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Post by muckypup on Feb 20, 2021 8:34:06 GMT
problem with 12, was poorly written for the most part, and by that i mean, i feel that after 2 seasons they still haven't found the doctor yet, Jodie does her best to give personality to the doctor but the writing still doesn't know who she is.......
but to be fair i have fallen out of love with the TV incarnation of the show, its woefully under funded and it shows, its competition blows it out of the water on production values
if your budget is low you need to do less grand stories with a great script and an interesting concept.......this dont really happen.......we had an interesting concept with the alt doctor, but then ruined it with the 2 final terrible episodes........
im sure plenty will disagree, n thats fine, but in these days o streaming originals mandalorian. lost in space, carnival row, umbrella academy and too many others it dont hold its own.......... personally i wish i they would franchise it or retire it.......
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 8:54:11 GMT
problem with 12, was poorly written for the most part, and by that i mean, i feel that after 2 seasons they still haven't found the doctor yet, Jodie does her best to give personality to the doctor but the writing still doesn't know who she is....... but to be fair i have fallen out of love with the TV incarnation of the show, its woefully under funded and it shows, its competition blows it out of the water on production values if your budget is low you need to do less grand stories with a great script and an interesting concept.......this dont really happen.......we had an interesting concept with the alt doctor, but then ruined it with the 2 final terrible episodes........ im sure plenty will disagree, n thats fine, but in these days o streaming originals mandalorian. lost in space, carnival row, umbrella academy and too many others it dont hold its own.......... personally i wish i they would franchise it or retire it....... Oh no now I may be not the greatest fan of WHO at moment but I want it to continue I realise there are many who like/love this incarnation and even I myself have went back over the episodes Initially did not enjoyand found many things that impressed me.Doctor Who has NEVER looked better effects wise and environments and am hoping with the lockdown in place that the writing confined to certain environments will improve...the series has highs and lows,your highs might not be my highs and my lows may not be yours.BF has proved a great script is what makes Doctor Who and BF proves more often than not that plain story telling is the key...I thank as lovers of the show we should learn to ride out the low moments in our opinions and let it run not scrap it.LONG LIVE WHO lol
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Post by theillusiveman on Feb 20, 2021 9:42:51 GMT
problem with 12, was poorly written for the most part, and by that i mean, i feel that after 2 seasons they still haven't found the doctor yet, Jodie does her best to give personality to the doctor but the writing still doesn't know who she is....... but to be fair i have fallen out of love with the TV incarnation of the show, its woefully under funded and it shows, its competition blows it out of the water on production values if your budget is low you need to do less grand stories with a great script and an interesting concept.......this dont really happen.......we had an interesting concept with the alt doctor, but then ruined it with the 2 final terrible episodes........ im sure plenty will disagree, n thats fine, but in these days o streaming originals mandalorian. lost in space, carnival row, umbrella academy and too many others it dont hold its own.......... personally i wish i they would franchise it or retire it....... Definitely agree Series 12 was abysmally written, yeah it has some decent moments of cinematography (The Mary Shelly story particularly looks good) and effects but deep down on a writing level its really bad
When The Ruth Doctor showed up, Social media exploded with praise saying that she is better than The 13th Doctor which is a really huge warning sign considering that The Ruth Doctor barely had 10 mins of screen time and didn't really do much (i mean Jo martin gave a good performance despite a script which is basically a cheap knockoff of Human Nature)
Yeah honestly after The Timeless Children if TV Who was to be cancelled and stay dead i wouldn't care
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Feb 20, 2021 10:54:51 GMT
This just goes to show that there's no pleasing some fans & that nobody hates Doctor Who more than its own fans.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 11:31:07 GMT
This just goes to show that there's no pleasing some fans & that nobody hates Doctor Who more than its own fans. Alternatively, everyone here is simply voicing their opinion in a reasonable manner. This era of the show has its fans, but also its detractors. The same can be said for Sylvester McCoy and Peter Capaldi's time on the show, two eras of Doctor Who you are keen to tell everyone how much you hate.
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I really enjoyed Series 12, but then I like Series 11 too. I admired Chris Chibnall for essentially rebooting Doctor Who when Jodie came along - new companions, new Doctor, new writers, hardly any continuity. I believe the inclusion of Captain Jack and the Cybermen were always on the cards, but I could be wrong. CC has spoken of his 'five year plan' for Doctor Who, and that seemed to include starting with a 'clean slate' with Jodie's debut, before building on it as time went on (whether Jodie's possible departure from the role was included in that plan is open to speculation - personally, I don't think she's going anywhere). I enjoyed it all, and am looking forward to seeing what happens next.
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Post by timegirl on Feb 20, 2021 13:27:29 GMT
I have very mixed feelings about the current era. Well some of series 12 was genuinely interesting and exciting for me: the Master reveal, the Fugitive Doctor,certain aspects of the Timeless Children, it did over recycle elements from RTD’s era but without finding the right emotional core. Sometimes like for instance Revolution, barely made me feel anything. Even during the companion goodbyes I didn’t feel much. Some episodes during series 12 do have good emotional scenes like Yaz’s backstory in Can you Hear Me and 13’s reaction during Timeless Children, but I think they still had a real problem developing their TARDIS team. Also while pretty to look at I feel like they aren’t doing enough with all the extra locations they are filming. It’s always like now we are in such and such a country, let’s leave after only spending 5 minutes here. It would be nice if they actually spent longer in these exotic places so we could explore them properly. The RTD homages are okay but sometimes it felt like they were way too reliant on them! I love RTD’s era as much as the next Whovian, but I feel like this era hasn’t found it’s own unique identity. 13 in series 12, still has some real issues for me. I feel like still have difficulty connecting to 13. Something about her incarnation just doesn’t feel like a real living person the way 12 did for me. I also hate some of 13’s actions like taking the Master’s perception filter off so the Nazis would get him. I do like certain moments like she was really good in Timeless Children, but I feel like I will never totally connect to 13. Maybe I just miss her predecessor too much. Even though series 12 and this era has its problems and it will never be my favorite, I would never ever want Doctor Who to end. Even if this era doesn’t resonate with me, there are still some good things about it and people who it does really resonate with.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 13:41:23 GMT
I have very mixed feelings about the current era. Well some of series 12 was genuinely interesting and exciting for me: the Master reveal, the Fugitive Doctor,certain aspects of the Timeless Children, it did over recycle elements from RTD’s era but without finding the right emotional core. Sometimes like for instance Revolution, barely made me feel anything. Even during the companion goodbyes I didn’t feel much. Some episodes during series 12 do have good emotional scenes like Yaz’s backstory in Can you Hear Me and 13’s reaction during Timeless Children, but I think they still had a real problem developing their TARDIS team. Also while pretty to look at I feel like they aren’t doing enough with all the extra locations they are filming. It’s always like now we are in such and such a country, let’s leave after only spending 5 minutes here. It would be nice if they actually spent longer in these exotic places so we could explore them properly. The RTD homages are okay but sometimes it felt like they were way too reliant on them! I love RTD’s era as much as the next Whovian, but I feel like this era hasn’t found it’s own unique identity. 13 in series 12, still has some real issues for me. I feel like still have difficulty connecting to 13. Something about her incarnation just doesn’t feel like a real living person the way 12 did for me. I also hate some of 13’s actions like taking the Master’s perception filter off so the Nazis would get him. I do like certain moments like she was really good in Timeless Children, but I feel like I will never totally connect to 13. Maybe I just miss her predecessor too much. Even though series 12 and this era has its problems and it will never be my favorite, I would never ever want Doctor Who to end. Even if this era doesn’t resonate with me, there are still some good things about it and people who it does really resonate with. You're not alone missing Doctor 12. Come on Peter - do us a Big Finish!
Just to pick up on the highlighted area of your post - I actually like that CC has dialed down the 'big emotional' moments a bit. I think things had got a stage where every companion leaving was a huge, epic tragedy or something that required a massive impact. I liked that Ryan and Graham left simply because they wanted to. Sometimes these smaller moments are just as sad as the bigger ones, just without being so emotionally jolting. I've a feeling we're in for a few tears regarding Yaz's increasing dependence on the Doctor and her lifestyle though!
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Post by timegirl on Feb 20, 2021 13:59:13 GMT
I have very mixed feelings about the current era. Well some of series 12 was genuinely interesting and exciting for me: the Master reveal, the Fugitive Doctor,certain aspects of the Timeless Children, it did over recycle elements from RTD’s era but without finding the right emotional core. Sometimes like for instance Revolution, barely made me feel anything. Even during the companion goodbyes I didn’t feel much. Some episodes during series 12 do have good emotional scenes like Yaz’s backstory in Can you Hear Me and 13’s reaction during Timeless Children, but I think they still had a real problem developing their TARDIS team. Also while pretty to look at I feel like they aren’t doing enough with all the extra locations they are filming. It’s always like now we are in such and such a country, let’s leave after only spending 5 minutes here. It would be nice if they actually spent longer in these exotic places so we could explore them properly. The RTD homages are okay but sometimes it felt like they were way too reliant on them! I love RTD’s era as much as the next Whovian, but I feel like this era hasn’t found it’s own unique identity. 13 in series 12, still has some real issues for me. I feel like still have difficulty connecting to 13. Something about her incarnation just doesn’t feel like a real living person the way 12 did for me. I also hate some of 13’s actions like taking the Master’s perception filter off so the Nazis would get him. I do like certain moments like she was really good in Timeless Children, but I feel like I will never totally connect to 13. Maybe I just miss her predecessor too much. Even though series 12 and this era has its problems and it will never be my favorite, I would never ever want Doctor Who to end. Even if this era doesn’t resonate with me, there are still some good things about it and people who it does really resonate with. You're not alone missing Doctor 12. Come on Peter - do us a Big Finish!
Just to pick up on the highlighted area of your post - I actually like that CC has dialed down the 'big emotional' moments a bit. I think things had got a stage where every companion leaving was a huge, epic tragedy or something that required a massive impact. I liked that Ryan and Graham left simply because they wanted to. Sometimes these smaller moments are just as sad as the bigger ones, just without being so emotionally jolting. I've a feeling we're in for a few tears regarding Yaz's increasing dependence on the Doctor and her lifestyle though!
Yes please! I will cry the tears of joy the day he comes back! Ryan and Graham’s departure was different, some aspects I did like. I am glad they didn’t kill them off and I feel like Ryan and Graham are destined to get their own BF spinoff! Definitely agree about Yaz, she is heeded to become this era’s Rose/Clara and in more ways than one. In general I just have trouble finding an emotional connection to this era. I feel like it often lacks the emotional punch other eras had.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 16:22:56 GMT
This just goes to show that there's no pleasing some fans & that nobody hates Doctor Who more than its own fans. Tbf you fall in to that bracket as well, i know theres many a big finish release you have bought and disliked 😂
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Feb 20, 2021 16:50:31 GMT
This just goes to show that there's no pleasing some fans & that nobody hates Doctor Who more than its own fans. Tbf you fall in to that bracket as well, i know theres many a big finish release you have bought and disliked 😂 Unlike some in this thread just because I don't like a certain story or doctor I haven't called for it to be retired or that if it was cancelled & stayed dead I wouldn't care.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 17:03:27 GMT
Tbf you fall in to that bracket as well, i know theres many a big finish release you have bought and disliked 😂 Unlike some in this thread just because I don't like a certain story or doctor I haven't called for it to be retired or that if it was cancelled & stayed dead I wouldn't care. I get what you are saying “I don’t like it so therefore it should be scrapped completely isn’t the way to go”
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2021 18:41:06 GMT
Yeah i agree that far thats pretty selfish.
As for the whether it was overstuffed, i mean possibly. There was The mater, a new doctor, jack, cybermen, judoon and daleks which is a lot. I don’t think that was my issue with the series though, it just felt so..familar after how fresh Series 11 had been. A new doctor! A Large companion team! Nearly all new monsters! Nearly pure historicals! Different plot structures and more. Series 12 felt like it lost a lot of this stiff in comparison, tho i still feel like a lot worked. Fugitive is a great bit of telly, Jack being back was fun and the Cybermen were really great. I do wish the master wasn’t in it tho, i think he really brought the series down despite giving a great performance as he took the agency from the cybermen in the last episode (for the third time in a row no less!) and i just felt in an jam packed series it might have served better. I also think they should have held the timeless children back or revealed it earlier. Having such a large info dump at the end without really explaining it away kind of felt flat. Alternatively, they actually did show us the fugitive doctor without explaining everything, i would have preferred if they had done that with the timeless children. I don’t know im still excited for series 13 but yeah imo it was a letdown after the underrated series 11
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Post by pazzer on Feb 20, 2021 20:03:47 GMT
At the start of the series was hoping 13 would be fleshed out and Yaz would have a bigger role. Which sadly didn't happen.
There is quite a lot going on, return of the Master, dimension aliens which nothing really happened with, Cybermen and Ruth Doctor. While I liked individual elements overall felt like a mess and I wasn't really invested in the characters.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Feb 21, 2021 0:49:28 GMT
I don’t think it was. There was a lot to process and some questions that have been left for the future, but I think we got a packed season with lots to think about. Compared to Series 11 it was immense but that really just shows the range that the show is capable of.
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Post by constonks on Feb 21, 2021 16:49:20 GMT
I don't think Series 12 was overstuffed but I think the finale was. If only because CC set up this great new villain in Ashad - who definitely could have returned a few times - and then had to toss him away because he didn't fit the Timeless Children story. Feels like ages since we've gotten a decent recurring villain that was unique to the new series (ie. Not the Master). Like... Kovarian, I guess?
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Post by Chakoteya on Feb 21, 2021 17:34:34 GMT
Series 12? Tom Baker's first season. No, not overstuffed at all.
Unlike series 38, which is the one you're actually talking about - which I can barely remember because it made so little impression on me. Ghastly version of the Master and utter drivel about the Time Lords and Doctor's 'origins'.... Meh.
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Post by number13 on Feb 21, 2021 22:54:43 GMT
Overstuffed? Not at all imo, more a case of packed with goodies at every turn. I enjoyed it almost all (and regulars to the forum probably know by now I have a theory about 'Orphan 55' which I won't bore you with again, but which means I enjoyed that one too! ) and I thought Ashad and Villa Diodati were splendid stuff.
And this season gave us RUTHDOCTOR!
So not overstuffed, until we came to The Timeless Children finale. Which, so far as I'm concerned, was 'stuff and nonsense', as the old saying goes. But I enjoyed the rest of the season very much.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 22, 2021 13:38:25 GMT
Overstuffed? Not at all imo, more a case of packed with goodies at every turn. I enjoyed it almost all (and regulars to the forum probably know by now I have a theory about 'Orphan 55' which I won't bore you with again, but which means I enjoyed that one too! ) and I thought Ashad and Villa Diodati were splendid stuff.
And this season gave us RUTHDOCTOR!
So not overstuffed, until we came to The Timeless Children finale. Which, so far as I'm concerned, was 'stuff and nonsense', as the old saying goes. But I enjoyed the rest of the season very much.
I must say, I'm surprised that yours is the first comment I expected from this thread. Not that I'm saying 'no different opinions allowed', but based on past S12 discussion on here (which tended to err on better than S12 or it's an improvement), I hadn't expected as much criticism as has been expressed on this thread.
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