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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 6, 2021 2:16:22 GMT
So the usual version goes that Six was this unappealing loudmouth who shouted and screamed and banged Peri about for trivial reasons, as well as resorting to violent solutions. None of this was on Colin, though, and it wasn't until Big Finish came along and 'rejigged' the character that he became the verbose moralist many of us know and love and gave Colin a chance to really flex.
However, when looking back, is this broad view really accurate? Yes, Twin Dillemma and him screaming BAD at Peri in Timelash, but am I alone in feeling like, even by Attack, they were already reining the fire in? By the time of Mysterious Planet, he already seemed a lot calmer and was already behaving more like he would in BF. I'd even say by the time of Revelation that had happened.
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Post by glutamodo on Mar 6, 2021 3:06:11 GMT
Hasn't it always been said that this was an intended "story arc" for Sixie? One that got a bit messed up by the hiatus?
And no, Sixie was not psychotic. He was a bit discombobulated after the regeneration and then took some time settle down afterwards.
I saw it as a USA PBS viewer, months after initial airing, and liked it. Liked it a lot. Was wanting more. And was rather annoyed when I learned of the hiatus and then later of Colin getting canned. I LIKED Sixie, and that is the main reason I ever started listening to Big Finish, to hear more Sixth Doctor stories.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2021 3:22:12 GMT
Psycho? Nope. I'd say that particular undeserved aspect of the character's reputation came from a really unfortunate car crash of coincidences. The announcement for the show being put on hiatus came during The Two Doctors on terrestrial television. A good story, a strong depiction of the Sixth Doctor, but particular eye I think would've been drawn to the story after it. Unfortunately, that story being pored over and pared apart with a critical eye was Timelash. A strange abnormality in the development of the Doctor and Peri during that season. Much more combatative than any story around it. We're back to a more subdued Six by Revelation of the Daleks, which fit with the developments we had during Season 22. It's also important to remember that Attack of the Cybermen debuted with 8 million viewers, that's more than any story from the preceding season. Including The Caves of Androzani and, then fan-favourite, Resurrection of the Daleks. There was definitely an interest in seeing how this Doctor would go. Looking back on it, I reckon the components for the Doctor's long-term character arc are there. I think a while back I put up a rearranged viewing order for the season that went something like: - Attack of the Cybermen
- The Two Doctors
- Vengeance on Varos
- The Mark of the Rani
- Revelation of the Daleks
The season arc begins with the Doctor having not quite come to grips with the disturbing nature of his own regeneration. The initial violent bouts are over, but there's still bits and pieces of his own psyche all in a jumble. Hazy. (I kind of wonder if, as part of that reacclimatisation, the TARDIS deliberately took him to Totter's Lane to focus his memory.) We don't get a conclusion to this thread in Attack of the Cybermen, but in The Two Doctors instead. He comes in with an exhausted Peri saying he hasn't felt like himself lately. Then, we get the mindlock and link to his past on Space Station Camera. This tends to be one of the stories that people point to and say -- this is the Sixth Doctor. By the end, it does feel like we know him, specifically, a great deal better than we did before. He and Peri are on much better terms come Vengeance on Varos, too. It feels comfortable. Peri can tease him about the series of near-death disasters (and domestic embarrassments) they've had since leaving Telos. The problems with the TARDIS feel much more about the Ship than its pilot. Varos gives us a Doctor in his element, but it's also important for Peri. It's the first time, quite uniquely, we see her grieve for him because she thinks he's dead. And the Doctor? He blows up the Punishment Dome's control centre to get her out when she's trapped. The Mark of the Rani, towards the end of the season, is almost practically his Big Finish self. He gently fusses over Peri when she puts herself in danger and has enough personal insight to know that he'll forget his moral scruples when outraged at an innocent's death. Revelation of the Daleks? There's a little griping there between the two at the beginning, but it's not unwarranted. Here, the Doctor's visiting the funeral of an old friend. They're on edge. Quite a personal occassion to bring Peri in on, too, so again there's that trust. There's also an echo of Varos in how he reacts to her, reacting to the Dalek, over the tannoy in Tranquil Repose: " You murdered him! Why did you have to--?" The sound cuts and he squeezes his eyes shut. She's trapped at the heart of what he wanted her to avoid. Danger. There's a definite sense of compassion there. For Peri and others. By the time we depart, it feels like we've rounded off the first phase of the Sixth Doctor. There's still room to grow, natch, but he's a very different man to the one suffering from his regeneration in The Twin Dilemma.
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Post by slithe on Mar 6, 2021 10:05:17 GMT
Sixth Doctor was the right idea but done in the wrong way. Saward's very heavy handed way of dealing with the idea as a script editor (through the use of violence and general unpleasantness) meant that the Doctor became very difficult to separate from events around him. Whilst the Sixth Doctor may have appeared unpleasant, to the audience (and ultimately his companions) it should always have been crystal clear that beneath that exterior, was a heart of gold. It took time to get there and, sadly, with the hiatus it was too late.
What is often forgotten is that Davison himself admitted that part of the reason for leaving was that he was 'bored' of the role - particularly Season 20. You can see some shifts in tone from Season 20 to Season 21 - there are darker elements in Resurrection/Androzani, which Davison admitted had there been more of, then he would have stayed for Season 22. Would that darker tone have led to a negative reaction and cancellation, it is unclear, but the malaise had set in earlier and the BBC took advantage of it to cancel the show (Grade's hatred of the programme did not help).
Ironically, much of the Sixth Doctor's era would have a longer impact than we thought. The format of episodes was copied by the revived series and the more spikier Doctor is seen in Capaldi.
Without the hiatus, a decent writing/script team and more support from the BBC - I think Baker could have got his wish and outstayed his namesake in the role.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2021 12:09:08 GMT
No. Psychosis is a medical condition with strict criteria. I guess temporary diminished incapacity would be a bit closer to what a "legal" defence of Colin's Doctors initial actions would be. Of course, colloquially speaking, I get the idea!
You get the oft-quoted "onion" thing from Colin where we'd peel back layers and gradually get to know this Doctor. I think that was a noble idea but impractical by the mid-80s where there were far more expensive US tv shows being imported and an extra contender to dilute viewers in Channel 4. Immediacy was probably needed in some respects. You can maybe argue though that BF's version of the Sixth Doctor goes too far in the other direction and is very much the "cuddly uncle" Old Sixie rather than anything particularly true to his TV incarnation. We certainly get the abrasive Doctor sometimes but more often than not he's very much the character you imagine was the end goal rather than the TV version even when the stories are set during the TV era. I don't have an issue with that as I love the character but truly S23-like Doctor stories are thin on the ground.
As Wolfie rightly notes, the ratings for Colin's first full season were better than Davison's last so the notion that fans were completely turned off by the Twin Dillema - or even Colin's casting or costume - holds no water and is usually only repeated lazily. The show was going anyway to save money for the expensive Eastenders set and because there was no advocate for the show higher up to counter balance those who considered it expendable, no Jane Tranter. Many shows were cancelled around the same time for the same reason. What can be seen is that many didn't come back to the show when it returned for the Trial season when the portrayal of The Doctor was a bit kinder. Or at least less abrasive. I think there is a bit of revisionism about Colin's first run, usually caused by lack of context. Things like the infamous TV slaughterings by young Chibnall et al add to that notion, that even the fans had jumped ship, but that's not borne out by facts till the show returns.
It's always fun watching early Hartnell and seeing how really quite wicked that incarnation was - you can see Colin would be attracted to channelling that. I don't think there was a clearly defined idea of how to write him after the initial notion though and that's an issue. He's just kinda up and down depending who has the typewriter. In retrospect, him just being sniffy and arrogant would have done..he didn't really need to strangle Peri. That added nothing and led to less. It wasn't even acted or shot well, it was very am-dram. If they were intent on adding that, they really should have had much more of a "what have I done..." kinda scene. Tennant's Timelord Victorious, for one, is a solid example.
Yet...it didn't put audiences off enough to come back for the full season so I don't think it's all that much of a factor in the successes and failures of the era.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 6, 2021 12:23:02 GMT
It wasn't Psychosis I'd argue though it was a volatile emotional release after 5th's tenure of emotional restraint/ repression, I mean 6 even states "5 was on the verge of becoming neurotic".
Regards
mark687
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 6, 2021 12:32:06 GMT
it was a volatile emotional release after 5th's tenure of emotional restraint/ repression, I mean 6 even states "5 was on the verge of becoming neurotic". Regards mark687 That's an interesting read.
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Post by slithe on Mar 6, 2021 12:46:07 GMT
It wasn't Psychosis I'd argue though it was a volatile emotional release after 5th's tenure of emotional restraint/ repression, I mean 6 even states "5 was on the verge of becoming neurotic". Regards mark687 Interesting idea... I certainly feel that this approach has a lot of weight to it. Some of the better 5th Doctor stories are where the Doctor does 'let go' and show a side that we seldom see with this incarnation. BF have also developed this in the Marc stories and in The Blazing Hour and it improves the quality of the story telling I feel. It's a pity that Sixie's run gets interrupted just as he is getting into his stride - Revelation of the Daleks is very good and the same for Vengeance on Varos. I could also envisage Baker doing Season 24 - many of the stories there fit the Sixth Doctor better than the 7th... Sadly, the BBC were embarrassed by Doctor Who and wanted to save money on the costs by the time that Baker took over. I think is now a greater appreciation for the series than there was in the late 1980s/1990s.
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Post by number13 on Mar 6, 2021 14:46:07 GMT
I think Sixie was still suffering mentally from the after effects of spectrox toxemia and that's why his regeneration took a while to settle down. But beyond those first few (not very convincing) scenes in 'The Twin Dilemma', he was louder, brasher and more obviously assertive than some Doctors, but for me that's as far as the difference went.
The idea that the Doctor had never used violent means before Sixie (in self defence/defence of others of course) is a very strange one and borne out of criticism of the show during his era and later New Who ideas imo. All the Doctors killed enemies who wouldn't stop when they were asked or couldn't be reasoned with. Just a handful of examples - Five shot a Dalek and the Cyberleader and killed the Silurians, Four gassed Solon, blew up the Graff Vynda-K, aged Sutekh to death and certainly tried to kill Goth in the Matrix, Three killed at least part of the Nestene Conciousness at point-blank range, shot that Ogron, blew up the Sea Devils and aikidoed his way across the galaxy, Two helped to ionise the Ice Warriors and as for the First Doctor... for all anyone knew at the time, he killed every Dalek alive in only his second story and if that road-gang overseer in 'The Reign of Terror' was ever the same again, I'd be very surprised.
And there are many more examples for all of them. But the Doctor is never violent unless it's what he has to do to defeat evil, and he'll always risk his own life for others. Which I think makes him the very best of action heroes.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Mar 6, 2021 15:32:00 GMT
I see we are still using the term "psycho" as a negative term in 2021.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 6, 2021 16:21:15 GMT
I see we are still using the term "psycho" as a negative term in 2021. I should state that, while I agree psycho is a problematic word and not ideal, the purpose of this thread is not a discussion about the Doctor's mental health, or even mental illness in general. Rather, it's about examining if the stereotype of the Sixth Doctor is actually accurate and, sadly, such terms have been used as shorthand in the past within the fandom. Doesn't make it remotely okay but it's what happened.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2021 20:38:06 GMT
No. Psychosis is a medical condition with strict criteria. I guess temporary diminished incapacity would be a bit closer to what a "legal" defence of Colin's Doctors initial actions would be. Of course, colloquially speaking, I get the idea! You get the oft-quoted "onion" thing from Colin where we'd peel back layers and gradually get to know this Doctor. I think that was a noble idea but impractical by the mid-80s where there were far more expensive US tv shows being imported and an extra contender to dilute viewers in Channel 4. Immediacy was probably needed in some respects. You can maybe argue though that BF's version of the Sixth Doctor goes too far in the other direction and is very much the "cuddly uncle" Old Sixie rather than anything particularly true to his TV incarnation. We certainly get the abrasive Doctor sometimes but more often than not he's very much the character you imagine was the end goal rather than the TV version even when the stories are set during the TV era. I don't have an issue with that as I love the character but truly S23-like Doctor stories are thin on the ground. As Wolfie rightly notes, the ratings for Colin's first full season were better than Davison's last so the notion that fans were completely turned off by the Twin Dillema - or even Colin's casting or costume - holds no water and is usually only repeated lazily. The show was going anyway to save money for the expensive Eastenders set and because there was no advocate for the show higher up to counter balance those who considered it expendable, no Jane Tranter. Many shows were cancelled around the same time for the same reason. What can be seen is that many didn't come back to the show when it returned for the Trial season when the portrayal of The Doctor was a bit kinder. Or at least less abrasive. I think there is a bit of revisionism about Colin's first run, usually caused by lack of context. Things like the infamous TV slaughterings by young Chibnall et al add to that notion, that even the fans had jumped ship, but that's not borne out by facts till the show returns. It's always fun watching early Hartnell and seeing how really quite wicked that incarnation was - you can see Colin would be attracted to channelling that. I don't think there was a clearly defined idea of how to write him after the initial notion though and that's an issue. He's just kinda up and down depending who has the typewriter. In retrospect, him just being sniffy and arrogant would have done..he didn't really need to strangle Peri. That added nothing and led to less. It wasn't even acted or shot well, it was very am-dram. If they were intent on adding that, they really should have had much more of a "what have I done..." kinda scene. Tennant's Timelord Victorious, for one, is a solid example.
Yet...it didn't put audiences off enough to come back for the full season so I don't think it's all that much of a factor in the successes and failures of the era. The Hartnell comparison's rather splendid. Scratch the First Doctor's veneer and beneath the irascible exterior, you get a deceptively cuddly figure who could get a giggle out of the ingenuity of an enemy. That was a sticking point for most of those initial years. Even as early as The Daleks, there's a moment at the end where Ian's celebrating, but the Doctor's scrambling around terrified that the Daleks have wiped out the planet. Getting the fluid link back is almost an afterthought. His fundamental instinct was for the people affected by the, in his own words, "senseless, evil killing". That's a very interesting development when you put it slap-bang against something like The Rescue much later, where he's sitting in the People's Hall of Judgement waiting for a mass murderer to come find him. Possibly to act as executioner (to save the lives of Ian, Barbara and Vicki), but mainly, to discover why he did it. Why kill all those people? Robert Holmes, in the only novelisation he did for Target sadly, gave the Sixth Doctor a fascination for the macabre. A sort of morbid scrutiny. Unintended, I'm sure, but it's a great continuation of his original self's desire for the big why of these things. A logical evolution that gives this new incarnation that unpredictable edge. On television, I think the Bakers also had a good grasp on the "Doctor-ish" undercurrents. The idea that he feels an innate desire to help, but this incarnation could be so upset about an innocent's death as to nearly shoot the Master dead. History or no history. There's that edge again, but with a justifiably in-character slant. "Passion!" rather than "Unstable," should've been where the basis of his characterisation came from. You can have both -- and it's fun to have both -- but the percentiles should've been reversed. (Side note: I looked up the dates for some television debuts and here were some of the Sixth Doctor's competitors for the category of "Fresh-Faced Full-Season Newcomer" in 1985 -- MacGyver, Spenser: For Hire, Dempsey and Makepeace, She-Ra, The Equaliser and Moonlighting.)
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