|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 17, 2021 0:27:57 GMT
The Cartmel Masterplan in action, seeing a return to a darker, more enigmatic and manipulative Doctor (with no shortage of influence from the likes of Moore and Miller, among others) while putting Ace on a coming of age rollercoaster as she faces her own demons and insecurities. One gave us Daleks, Kandymen and meta commentary, the other Old Gods, UNIT and foreshadowing for NuWho, but which of the two is the better series?
|
|
|
|
Post by constonks on Apr 17, 2021 2:18:21 GMT
For me, best serial of the eight is Remembrance, but Season 26 wins overall.
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,669 
|
Post by shutupbanks on Apr 17, 2021 2:21:59 GMT
Aside from Remembrance, Season 25 is very ordinary: Happiness and Greatest are ok, but Nemesis is not very good at all. Season 26, on the other hand, has only one real clunker with Battlefield (hell of a clunker, though!) and with only a couple of elements of Survival (the scenes in Perivale at the start try very hard to be moody and mysterious but just come off... well, not quite as good as similar scenes in Fear Her, really) not really hitting the mark. Season 26 for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 6:48:11 GMT
I like both, but in terms of story (on the whole?), I'd go for Season 26. Season 25, I like, but outside of Remembrance of the Daleks (and maybe The Happiness Patrol), it doesn't feel like they're stepping too far from their comfort zone. And, fair enough, it was a long road to 1988 (and a firm footing), but what they were able to do in '89 was marvellous. It felt like the show wasn't in a holding pattern anymore. It had a plan, a direction and wanted to go in it. They were able to properly explore more complex themes like Morgaine's genuine sense of duty, the Reverend quietly losing his faith, Ace's past being shaped by real-world horrors, or the changeling nature of the Cheetah world. I get the impression that they wanted, in terms of production values, to look a bit like The Equalizer. Sort of a grunge, filmic grit quality with subdued lighting and a bleached colour palette (as below). They got it with Ghost-Light, but stories like Battlefield kind of suffered the most from a production that looked a bit too... playful, I guess? Both years have that issue, but Season 26 feels as though it was able to diffuse more of the tone that they wanted through the stories they wanted to tell. Despite whatever limits the show had imposed on it. For comparison, here's a pair of excerpts from the first chapter of Battlefield's novelisation. Just to show the difference between what was feasible for television and how it could be visualised without those constraints:   |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 8:18:04 GMT
Celebratory Dalek/Cyberman anniversary bash Series 25 Vs nearly-all-new final Series 26? I love them both, of course, but let's mention the two perceived clunkers.
'Silver Nemesis' - a cheaper, less focussed reworking of the themes of 'Remembrance of the Daleks' only two stories ago - features some questionable clowning around when The Queen turns up, and Keff McCulloch's second worst score.
'Battlefield - a return for the Brig in an inconsistent fantasy featuring sparkler guns, a terrific cast, wonderful monster and Keff McCulloch's *worst* score.
My honest opinion of these two stories there - but everything else in Series 25 and 26 is wonderful. Diverse stories, great dynamic between the two leads, some pretty good production values, and a confidence in storytelling with new situations instead of navel-gazing, as the show had done in recent years.
'Remembrance of the Daleks' and 'Curse of Fenric' are the two series standouts in my view. As I say, I love them all, but I couldn't choose between them!
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
|
Post by lidar2 on Apr 17, 2021 10:24:45 GMT
Battlefield isn't great but it's by no means a clunker.
Silly, oops sorry Silver, Nemesis is utterly dreadful.
The 3 good stories in the 2 seasons are hard to choose between but the poor stories make the choice easy. Season 26 wins hands down
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,669
|
Post by shutupbanks on Apr 17, 2021 10:41:52 GMT
Battlefield isn't great but it's by no means a clunker. Silly, oops sorry Silver, Nemesis is utterly dreadful. The 3 good stories in the 2 seasons are hard to choose between but the poor stories make the choice easy. Season 26 wins hands down When I say "hell of a clunker" in reference to Battlefield, I meant that for the weakest story in the season, it's still pretty damned good. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 22:30:17 GMT
I thought both seasons were pretty poor seasons of Doctor Who... of the two though I'd go with S25, as it contained one decent story!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2021 23:06:58 GMT
Personally, I rate 'Remembrance of the Daleks', 'The Curse of Fenric' and 'Ghost Light' as the Classics, worthy of what went before. Indications that the series could recapture some of the old magic. 'Survival' is close to them, but its hard to escape the 'Rainbow' Bungle the Bear style costumes for the Cat people, which undercuts the rest of the strong elements.
There's a lot of good stuff going on, such as 'The Greatest Show in the Galaxy', but what I struggle with is the oft cited 'kids TV acting', which was more of a late 1980's affliction, that 1970's Dramas such as 'The Changes' & 'Children of the Stones' etc never could be accused of, even though those actually had young actors in lead roles, being more nuanced and sincere than what we got from adults in Doctor Who. Plus the budget seemed to have been whittled down to a comedy sketch show level.
For myself, self conscious of the decline of the show, seeing this at a timeslot of 7:30 PM to a degree not previously apparent in the show, clouded my appraisal of the genuinely rather interesting variety of stories being covered, such as 'The Happiness Patrol'. 'Battlefield', for example, despite the return of the Brigadier, looked like of a (small) bunch of historical re-enactment society chaps having a drink fuelled bargy in an adjacent car park over who blocked the exit. 'Silver Nemesis', seemed to be inspired by the Silver Jubilee of the show. 'We have the Daleks - hey - lets make the Cybermen Silver!!'. Plot? Just give them something of the same. Namecheck the beginning of the show, etc, even though they weren't around then.
I never watched Season 26 at the time as I was working and did not even set the tape, such was my decline in interest due to Season's 24 & 25, but was pleasantly surprised when I caught up in the 1990's. What I saw really rehabilitated Sylvester McCoy and Sophie Aldred in my estimation.
So I guess Season 26 wins for managing to go out on an upward curve and point the way to the programmes future,
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2021 1:54:51 GMT
[...] For myself, self conscious of the decline of the show, seeing this at a timeslot of 7:30 PM to a degree not previously apparent in the show, clouded my appraisal of the genuinely rather interesting variety of stories being covered, such as 'The Happiness Patrol'. 'Battlefield', for example, despite the return of the Brigadier, looked like of a (small) bunch of historical re-enactment society chaps having a drink fuelled bargy in an adjacent car park over who blocked the exit. ' Silver Nemesis', seemed to be inspired by the Silver Jubilee of the show. 'We have the Daleks - hey - lets make the Cybermen Silver!!'. Plot? Just give them something of the same. Namecheck the beginning of the show, etc, even though they weren't around then. makes me itch for that reason, because... There are a lot of good ideas in there. The validium is a great concept, echoing the old Greek myth of Galatea: Pygmalion's ivory statue that was gifted life by Aphrodite. Lady Peinforte does feel like a remnant of those Dark Times mentioned here (I'd pick Anya Taylor-Joy, who's been doing Queen's Gambit and Emma for a younger version of her actually) and has a good rapport with her manservant Richard. The Cybermen using emotional psychology to defeat an opponent rather than invest in open warfare is compelling. There's even an interesting, albeit likely unintentional, implication that the Doctor and Del Flores have met before. And yet... It just doesn't quite click and come together in the same way as the rest of the season does. I actually wonder if it might've been cool to have each villainous group be a remnant of the first three Doctors. Jon's Doctor against the Neo-Nazis, Pat's having gone against the Cybermen and Bill Hartnell's having faced off against Peinforte. Maybe that's one for Cutaway Comics? They've been doing quite well with OMEGA... (A nice detail about Battlefield which I like: Just the quiet confidence that, whether or not we get to see it, the Doctor still has a future. Could be Sylvester at the reins, could be someone or a series of someone elses entirely, but nevertheless, things will continue chuffing along.) |
|
|
|
Post by pazzer on Apr 18, 2021 19:30:18 GMT
Despite enjoying it as a kid and seeing Cybermen shot with arrows still making me smile now Nemesis ain't great. Combined with fact Battlefield has UNIT and the Brigadier should make it an easy win for Season 26. Yet Season 25 has some of my favorite 7th Doctor moments. Talk about the ripple effect, disarming gunman and walking away from exploding tent.
Season 26 has costume changes and the focus on Ace helps tie everything together. I know there not but I'm calling them vampires is another point in it's favor. Plus love the Master and Cheetah People. Find Ghost Light overwhelming though many people rave about it.
I admit Season 26 is probably better but I find both of them amazing.
|
|
|
|
Post by doctorkernow on May 7, 2021 20:46:35 GMT
Hello again.
Season 25 was a vast improvement on panto season. Indeed watching Rememberance I had to pinch myself I was actually watching dramatic and interesting Doctor Who. As I mentioned before I watched the McCoy era in black and white. So Happiness Patrol looked ok, it seemed comic-like and while flawed was enjoyable to watch thanks to some really heightened performances particularly from Sheila Hancock. Silver Nemesis had some good points, but it totally wasted the Cybermen. Lady Peinforte would have been much better in her own adventure and the Nazis were not really that much of a threat. Greatest Show is alternatively spooky and cringy. I loved the Chief Clown and his minions and the nature of the circus as a giant trap was effective. I also liked the Captain and Mags as an alternative Doctor and Ace, the Captain is real nasty piece of work. The best bit, Sylvester McCoy walking calmly away as all manner of explosive hell breaks loose behind him...
Season 26 is weird, a bizarre mix of the mysterious, ridiculous and dramatic. We have a comic-style Arthurian runaround, a Victorian puzzle box, a monster-filled tale of faith and love and a fight for survival. I thoroughly enjoyed Season 26. I really didn't understand Ghostlight but I appreciated its creepy atmosphere. Fenric was a little rushed in places but had some wonderful moments. Ace's character development was well-handled and the Doctor having to destroy her faith in him is an awful watch. Survival is a wonderful tale of cute but deadly cats and what 'survival of the fittest' actually means in practice. This is Ace''s story and Rona Munro writes her beautifully. McCoy's Doctor in season 26 is probably the most manipulative since Hartnell when he sabotages the fluid link in The Daleks.
I love both seasons even in colour, but season 26 edges it with three real belters. So much more interesting than what was on the other side, ie Corrie!
|
|
