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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 9:53:29 GMT
I imagine the reason why they are doing the draft episode one and then reading the storyline is that it’s too similar to genesis and so doesn’t warrant a full adaption. But maybe as the first episode is left intact its different enough and justifed.
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Post by thelonecenturion on Aug 10, 2021 10:19:29 GMT
Thinking about this, I am feeling a bit more positive about it the alternate Ark in Space. I imagine it will be sufficiently different from the TV version to justify its existence. I think I read in DWM (about 35 years ago) that the Lucoratti Ark ended with the Dr hitting the alien heads into space with a golf club in an episode entitled Golfball. It is 4 discs so I guess we are getting the full 6 parts. Still not really convinced by Genesis of Terror. Why one full cast episode and a storyline? Why not make the whole thing full cast? They have worked from storylines to full cast for previous Lost Stories, so why stop at a storyline here? Maybe BF have good reason for doing it the way they have decided to do it and I think they have earned enough trust over 20+ years that it is worth taking a punt on buying it, but I'd feel happier if they gave us a bit more of an insight into their thinking about why they have made the decision to go for a hybrid full-cast / storyline production rather than a straight full cast adaptation. For me at least, the hybrid approach is always going to feel like second best when compared to full cast. Might be because it isn't as different from the TV version, or that, according to the news article: " Genesis is a very visual script packed with striking, stark images – Nation even makes the stage directions exciting." It might be more effective if they leave in the original stage directions. After all, there are some brilliant visual set pieces in the original Genesis, which might not translate very well to audio. Also, re: Doctor Who and The Ark being 4 discs, the news article does say 4 discs, but the product page says 2. Likewise no disc number for Genesis is given in the article, but the product page says two, and given the pricing disparity I feel like there's been a mistake somewhere along the line...
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Post by cyrano on Aug 10, 2021 10:34:25 GMT
I think these are interesting projects, but I wonder if releasing them under the Lost Stories banner might be a mistake? Even just in this thread, two years out from release, they're generating quite a bit of confusion and resentment. I think they've got a bit of a different audience to the standard Lost Stories, and they're beginning to resemble (as someone mentioned above) Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth more than 'unproduced stories from the 80s you always wondered about'.
I think dramatised script archaeology is quite interesting, but maybe it should be presented as its own thing, rather than using the Lost Stories range. That might give Big Finish more latitude to make these releases more their own thing with commentaries, alternate takes based on alternate drafts and even radically different performances. Maybe.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Aug 10, 2021 10:42:32 GMT
So the article says this about the first draft version of Ark, Adapted by Jonathan Morris from the first draft scripts, this audio production of Doctor Who and the Ark highlights where Robert Holmes polished the storytelling for television, and how the team developed the character of the Doctor.
They're basically admitting this version isn't as good. Another great selling point. What an epic waste of time. Only a waste of time if no one buys it. Well we will see how popular this release is.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 10, 2021 10:49:36 GMT
Only a waste of time if no one buys it. Well we will see how popular this release is. Its Tom Baker of course it will be popular Regards mark687
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Aug 10, 2021 10:51:57 GMT
Well we will see how popular this release is. Its Tom Baker of course it will be popular Regards mark687 True but how popular in comparison to other Tom releases I wonder.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Aug 10, 2021 10:53:47 GMT
I think these are interesting projects, but I wonder if releasing them under the Lost Stories banner might be a mistake? Even just in this thread, two years out from release, they're generating quite a bit of confusion and resentment. I think they've got a bit of a different audience to the standard Lost Stories, and they're beginning to resemble (as someone mentioned above) Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle Earth more than 'unproduced stories from the 80s you always wondered about'. I think dramatised script archaeology is quite interesting, but maybe it should be presented as its own thing, rather than using the Lost Stories range. That might give Big Finish more latitude to make these releases more their own thing with commentaries, alternate takes based on alternate drafts and even radically different performances. Maybe. Yes agree 100%.
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Post by theillusiveman on Aug 10, 2021 10:56:25 GMT
Well we will see how popular this release is. Its Tom Baker of course it will be popular Regards mark687 Sadly if that was the case we would have had a continuation for The Comic Strip Adaptations range
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Post by sherlock on Aug 10, 2021 11:00:14 GMT
Well we will see how popular this release is. Its Tom Baker of course it will be popular Regards mark687 That (regrettably imo) didn’t seem to hold true for the Comic Strip Adaptations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 11:04:44 GMT
I'm not here to start or take part in a debate. All I want to say is that I am very excited about the two forthcoming adaptations of John Lucarotti and Terry Nation's original storylines. Like Return of the Cybermen, which I absolutely loved, it's interesting to hear how these early concepts differ from the TV serials - regardless of favourability.
And you know what I think, guys? I think these Season 12 Lost Stories are set in another timeline, probably the same one as The Pilot Episode.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Aug 10, 2021 11:26:49 GMT
Thinking about this, I am feeling a bit more positive about it the alternate Ark in Space. I imagine it will be sufficiently different from the TV version to justify its existence. I think I read in DWM (about 35 years ago) that the Lucoratti Ark ended with the Dr hitting the alien heads into space with a golf club in an episode entitled Golfball. It is 4 discs so I guess we are getting the full 6 parts. Still not really convinced by Genesis of Terror. Why one full cast episode and a storyline? Why not make the whole thing full cast? They have worked from storylines to full cast for previous Lost Stories, so why stop at a storyline here? Maybe BF have good reason for doing it the way they have decided to do it and I think they have earned enough trust over 20+ years that it is worth taking a punt on buying it, but I'd feel happier if they gave us a bit more of an insight into their thinking about why they have made the decision to go for a hybrid full-cast / storyline production rather than a straight full cast adaptation. For me at least, the hybrid approach is always going to feel like second best when compared to full cast. Might be because it isn't as different from the TV version, or that, according to the news article: " Genesis is a very visual script packed with striking, stark images – Nation even makes the stage directions exciting." It might be more effective if they leave in the original stage directions. After all, there are some brilliant visual set pieces in the original Genesis, which might not translate very well to audio. Also, re: Doctor Who and The Ark being 4 discs, the news article does say 4 discs, but the product page says 2. Likewise no disc number for Genesis is given in the article, but the product page says two, and given the pricing disparity I feel like there's been a mistake somewhere along the line... As I said in my post, there may well be good reasons and BF are entitled to a bit of trust. I'd still like to know the reasons however and given that BF doubtless want as many people as possible to fork out their hard-earned pennies for this story then they ought to be explaining to would-be customers why the hybrid route is the best possible way, or perhaps the only possible way. All other things being equal, the premise that a hybrid adaptation is a better option than a straight full cast strikes me as a bit counter-intuitive - but I'd be (genuinely) happy to have it explained why I am wrong in this case.
Re the number of discs for the Alternate Ark - hopefully that gets cleared up soon, one way or the other.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 10, 2021 11:28:35 GMT
Its Tom Baker of course it will be popular Regards mark687 That (regrettably imo) didn’t seem to hold true for the Comic Strip Adaptations. CS rights are a nightmare to navigate though, no ones quite sure which individual or company owns what, I remeber hearing that the the BBC just about managed to do the Striped for Action without a legal challenge. Regards mark687
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 10, 2021 11:59:16 GMT
That (regrettably imo) didn’t seem to hold true for the Comic Strip Adaptations. CS rights are a nightmare to navigate though, no ones quite sure which individual or company owns what, I remeber hearing that the the BBC just about managed to do the Striped for Action without a legal challenge. Regards mark687 That feels like a moot point really. Big Finish got the rights to do comic strip adaptations and we were repeatedly told the future of them would be dependent on how they sold. We’ve not had any more, which suggests they didn’t sell well. We’ve never had any indication from Big Finish that they struggled to get those rights or maintain them, which frankly they would have if it were the case, as they’re very transparent about these things. Tom does sell… to a degree. Personally, I think they’re utilising the Lost Stories banner as it’s got a built in reputation. It’s easier to sell the product off the back of that than it is to create a new range, which it most probably should have been.
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Post by ollychops on Aug 10, 2021 12:03:57 GMT
Its Tom Baker of course it will be popular Regards mark687 That (regrettably imo) didn’t seem to hold true for the Comic Strip Adaptations. Yeah, really disappointed the Comic Adaptations never took off.
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Post by redsharkJason on Aug 10, 2021 18:54:26 GMT
That (regrettably imo) didn’t seem to hold true for the Comic Strip Adaptations. Yeah, really disappointed the Comic Adaptations never took off. The Novel Adaptations are a similar type of product of having to obtain the rights of a previously published work and then having the additional expense of paying (usually) another writer to rework it into audio. I suspect that they sold heaps better than present day Benny offerings or even DW Early Adventures do (which both seem to continue), but the difference being that the Tom Baker CSA and NAs were more costly to produce. Frankly, I'm surprised that we're getting a fourth series of Hinchcliffe Presents, how very generous of Big Finish to foot the bill for that most assuredly $$$ production.
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Post by cwm on Aug 10, 2021 19:08:20 GMT
Yeah, really disappointed the Comic Adaptations never took off. The Novel Adaptations are a similar type of product of having to obtain the rights of a previously published work and then having the additional expense of paying (usually) another writer to rework it into audio. I suspect that they sold heaps better than present day Benny offerings or even DW Early Adventures do (which both seem to continue), but the difference being that the Tom Baker CSA and NAs were more costly to produce. Frankly, I'm surprised that we're getting a fourth series of Hinchcliffe Presents, how very generous of Big Finish to foot the bill for that most assuredly $$$ production. I suspect cost of rights did factor into the Novel Adaptations, but also consider they had larger than normal casts - I believe "The Well-Mannered War" has the largest cast of any one BF story, with a total of 14 credited cast members, around double the size of a typical cast for a monthly range story - and some people might just not be interested in buying adaptations of existing material. Is it really a surprise that sales might be better for an original story with a storyline and editing by Hinchcliffe than they are for the novel adaptations?
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Post by redsharkJason on Aug 10, 2021 20:38:25 GMT
The Novel Adaptations are a similar type of product of having to obtain the rights of a previously published work and then having the additional expense of paying (usually) another writer to rework it into audio. I suspect that they sold heaps better than present day Benny offerings or even DW Early Adventures do (which both seem to continue), but the difference being that the Tom Baker CSA and NAs were more costly to produce. Frankly, I'm surprised that we're getting a fourth series of Hinchcliffe Presents, how very generous of Big Finish to foot the bill for that most assuredly $$$ production. I suspect cost of rights did factor into the Novel Adaptations, but also consider they had larger than normal casts - I believe "The Well-Mannered War" has the largest cast of any one BF story, with a total of 14 credited cast members, around double the size of a typical cast for a monthly range story - and some people might just not be interested in buying adaptations of existing material. Is it really a surprise that sales might be better for an original story with a storyline and editing by Hinchcliffe than they are for the novel adaptations? The PHPs also have a somewhat large cast, Phillip to write it, Marc to adapt it and Volumes 1-2 were both a little more costly (than other more affordable DW options) to purchase during their era of initial release. *Pleasantly* surprised at PHP's success.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2021 20:50:39 GMT
Can't say I'm bothered either way by these releases. I might be interested in them when they're released, but it's a bit difficult to get too excited about ideas that were just first drafts. Which by definition must mean there's 'something' lacking in them. It is Tom Baker though, so Fourth Doctor stories are hard to say no to. Season 12 is classic Doctor Who too, so an alternative/unbound S12 is an interesting concept. (I'd have dropped the Lost Stories tag and gone down the Unbound S12 route myself, but BF marketing is what it is.)
After the success (well... I liked it) of Return of the Cybermen I think I'd have preferred the Dalek story to be wholly a proper full cast adventure and not the hybrid style, but the reasons pointed out above do make sense I suppose. I just hope the mixed format doesn't spoil it.
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 10, 2021 20:51:13 GMT
I think the Philip Hinchcliffe Presents range will probably have a dedicated audience that doesn’t delve into other Big Finish. Not a majority of sales or anything like that, but I suspect it’s sizeable.
They’re absolutely the closest that BF will ever get to slotting in with the TV series. That’s not a slight on their other productions at all, we all love them, but PHP has the varying story formats, the returning cast and producer, and the extensive cast. Of course, the pricing reflects that. Essentially they don’t have the shortcuts associated with your standard audio production and are very much promoted as being a premium product and an extension of that era.
And on the whole an original story will have a wider appeal than an adaptation. It would’ve been interesting to see the Comic Strip Adaptations treat like the Novel ones, with a varied and very competitively priced bundle announced, instead of it being the anniversary set they hoped to do more of if it sold.
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Aug 10, 2021 21:06:22 GMT
Tom Baker is the only Doctor I still automatically buy. Until recently it was the same with Paul McGann as the Eighth Doctor. I did wonder if it could every happen with my beloved Fourth Doctor. I now have the answer.
I didn’t like Return of the Cybermen, in fact I don’t think I have finished it, so these are not for me. Especially as the write up gives me no feeling of excitement.
It is a sad day. PS: Do these releases explain why Big Finish did not go with John Dorney’s suggested “keeping it canon” ending for Return of the Cybermen?
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