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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 19:25:42 GMT
It got a very mixed reaction here, that’s true (veering negative even), and that’s fair enough, nothing is for everyone. But everywhere else the reviews were pretty positive, so I don’t think it actually is untrue. But that’s the thing, it wasn’t “massively positive” which is what’s stated in the article. Even “Pretty positive” isn’t your typical Big Finish release. DWM weren’t massively keen. The reviewers that get freebies weren’t either. There was a notable lack of praise on Twitter and even the usual suspects doing an influx of retweeting positive tweets weren’t. A regular news article wouldn’t make a big deal about a previous sets reception, unless they specifically use quotes. This one has and it reads like overcompensating. As you say, nothing is for everyone. Genesis more so. Yes, and it just makes David look out of touch. No reason to not use a far more qualative phrase like "our massively ambitious, bold reinvention of some iconic events in the Doctor Who universe" which keeps the hyperbole but does not open yourself up to "Sorry...what?" questions. Ultimately it ends up as Boy Cries Wolf. Of course BF are not about to say "perhaps the least well received event box set....", that is obvious. Yet to have such an obvious OTT inflation of the reception means if David said the sky was blue, you would need to look up and check.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on May 11, 2022 19:37:12 GMT
I honestly don’t know where you were looking then. But not to worry.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 20:01:25 GMT
Well, Shalla said where they were looking I looked here, DWM, Facebook, Twitter and at some of the more trutworthy sites who do not seem more interested in having their name on the product releases and keeping freebies from turning up.
Where did you look? Do you think as a person who wrote a third of the set you are more or less likely to be tweeted or tagged in favorable reviews? And where did David look is a totally different question once more. "Massively positive" was his phrase, "pretty positive" was yours and "Mixed at best" would be mine.
No-one has a vested interest in not liking a release, we do pay for them and this was much anticipated.
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Post by Digi on May 11, 2022 20:16:23 GMT
I don't know that it's terribly productive to fill a thread about this series's second volume with issues--perceived or actual--that some may have had with the first set. Maybe let's focus on the subject at hand.
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Post by shallacatop on May 11, 2022 20:23:31 GMT
I don't know that it's terribly productive to fill a thread about this series's second volume with issues--perceived or actual--that some may have had with the first set. Maybe let's focus on the subject at hand. To be fair, the discussion relates directly to the news article promoting the second set. There isn’t anything else about the set out there other than the article.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 20:28:50 GMT
I don't know that it's terribly productive to fill a thread about this series's second volume with issues--perceived or actual--that some may have had with the first set. Maybe let's focus on the subject at hand. The article is about the 2nd set and uses the response to the first to sell further interest. BF drew the parallel. We are only respondin to their own news story on Vol. 2.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on May 11, 2022 22:20:11 GMT
Well, Shalla said where they were looking I looked here, DWM, Facebook, Twitter and at some of the more trutworthy sites who do not seem more interested in having their name on the product releases and keeping freebies from turning up. Where did you look? Do you think as a person who wrote a third of the set you are more or less likely to be tweeted or tagged in favorable reviews? And where did David look is a totally different question once more. "Massively positive" was his phrase, "pretty positive" was yours and "Mixed at best" would be mine. No-one has a vested interest in not liking a release, we do pay for them and this was much anticipated. I’m just saying that as someone who cast a relatively wide eye across all reviews, tagged or not, the response I saw (other than here) doesn’t match the one you seem to have seen. Not sure what else I can say.
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Post by redsharkJason on May 11, 2022 23:05:25 GMT
Well, Shalla said where they were looking I looked here, DWM, Facebook, Twitter and at some of the more trutworthy sites who do not seem more interested in having their name on the product releases and keeping freebies from turning up. Where did you look? Do you think as a person who wrote a third of the set you are more or less likely to be tweeted or tagged in favorable reviews? And where did David look is a totally different question once more. "Massively positive" was his phrase, "pretty positive" was yours and "Mixed at best" would be mine. No-one has a vested interest in not liking a release, we do pay for them and this was much anticipated. I’m just saying that as someone who cast a relatively wide eye across all reviews, tagged or not, the response I saw (other than here) doesn’t match the one you seem to have seen. Not sure what else I can say. All 3 stories from Genesis have respectable scores on the **** ******, with John's leading the pack.
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Post by thegreendeath on May 12, 2022 3:12:20 GMT
Genesis got solid reviews over on GB as well.
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Post by shallacatop on May 12, 2022 6:42:10 GMT
Well, Shalla said where they were looking I looked here, DWM, Facebook, Twitter and at some of the more trutworthy sites who do not seem more interested in having their name on the product releases and keeping freebies from turning up. Where did you look? Do you think as a person who wrote a third of the set you are more or less likely to be tweeted or tagged in favorable reviews? And where did David look is a totally different question once more. "Massively positive" was his phrase, "pretty positive" was yours and "Mixed at best" would be mine. No-one has a vested interest in not liking a release, we do pay for them and this was much anticipated. I’m just saying that as someone who cast a relatively wide eye across all reviews, tagged or not, the response I saw (other than here) doesn’t match the one you seem to have seen. Not sure what else I can say. And we’re saying that the use of “massively positive” is inflated, I even think your “pretty positive” is too. It stands out because it’s clearly intended to be OTT and to cover up the less than positive response. As Davy said, I’d also consider the response to be mixed at best and even then that’d be the lower end. So to see that reception and then read “massively positive” is just bizarre. And then to have your lead essentially tell you that you should enjoy the set, despite it being intentionally convoluted and confusing. To me that just reads as it’ll be as unsatisfying as the first time. But to actually use that choice quote, in light of the reception of the first set, alongside “massively positive” is just out of touch. Not sure what else I can say.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on May 12, 2022 7:05:48 GMT
I’m just saying that as someone who cast a relatively wide eye across all reviews, tagged or not, the response I saw (other than here) doesn’t match the one you seem to have seen. Not sure what else I can say. And we’re saying that the use of “massively positive” is inflated, I even think your “pretty positive” is too. If I’m honest, I think I was being reserved. This is not ignoring criticism, or sticking my head in the sand. I’m aware the response here was largely negative and that’s fine. Just it’s definitely an outlier.
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Post by Kestrel on May 12, 2022 7:06:28 GMT
I think in general our fandom tends to err on the side of positivity, or put less charitably i think we tend to sometimes not be as critical as we should... but it's certainly far preferable to erring in the other direction.
That said, hoo boy, this is a weird argument. Of course Big Finish is going to use excessively laudatory language when promoting new releases. There's not a single reality out there where they announce, "Gee, the last set was pretty middling, please buy the next one anyway."
And as for the quote that prompted all of this... "response" doesn't necessarily mean reviews. It could just as easily be referring to sales -- and given that the first set was a War Doctor redux starring a beloved Doctor in (presumably) a wildly different role, and the much-anticipated and long-overdue return of a beloved range... I expect it sold very well. A "massively positive response" indeed.
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Post by shallacatop on May 12, 2022 7:46:56 GMT
And we’re saying that the use of “massively positive” is inflated, I even think your “pretty positive” is too. If I’m honest, I think I was being reserved. This is not ignoring criticism, or sticking my head in the sand. I’m aware the response here was largely negative and that’s fine. Just it’s definitely an outlier. And you’ve been told other examples of reviews that weren’t positive outside of the forum, suggesting it wasn’t a “massively” or “pretty” positive response. If that’s not sticking your head in the sand, then fair enough, I’ll take your word for it.
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Post by shallacatop on May 12, 2022 7:52:25 GMT
I think in general our fandom tends to err on the side of positivity, or put less charitably i think we tend to sometimes not be as critical as we should... but it's certainly far preferable to erring in the other direction. That said, hoo boy, this is a weird argument. Of course Big Finish is going to use excessively laudatory language when promoting new releases. There's not a single reality out there where they announce, "Gee, the last set was pretty middling, please buy the next one anyway." And as for the quote that prompted all of this... "response" doesn't necessarily mean reviews. It could just as easily be referring to sales -- and given that the first set was a War Doctor redux starring a beloved Doctor in (presumably) a wildly different role, and the much-anticipated and long-overdue return of a beloved range... I expect it sold very well. A "massively positive response" indeed. There’s a real issue on this forum where people don’t read others posts… nobody is saying that Big Finish would acknowledge a less than positive response in their news articles; they’re promoting a product at the end of the day. But they’ve specifically said “massively positive response” and also got a quote in from Colin that implies people should be happy with what many criticised the set for. It’s like some bizarre hyperbolic damage control that leaves them open for questioning. There’s much better phrases to use. Similarly you wouldn’t use “massively positive response” if you’re referring to sales. You’d say it was a best seller. It’s not the first time their marketing is off. It won’t be the last. That external marketing expert they got in must be having a good laugh.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on May 12, 2022 8:04:43 GMT
If I’m honest, I think I was being reserved. This is not ignoring criticism, or sticking my head in the sand. I’m aware the response here was largely negative and that’s fine. Just it’s definitely an outlier. And you’ve been told other examples of reviews that weren’t positive outside of the forum, suggesting it wasn’t a “massively” or “pretty” positive response. If that’s not sticking your head in the sand, then fair enough, I’ll take your word for it. Actually, the only real example I was given was ‘DWM’ which I’ve got here and seems middling. As mentioned above the site that shall not be named has them all in the 8-9 range, GB is apparently positive (I’ll have to take your word on that), and from a quick google the reviews I can find are all either positive or at worst mixed. There’s even one or two absolute raves. Davy mentioned Twitter and from a search for ‘Doctor of War’ on its own has one negative in my search surrounded by lots of people calling it their favourite box set of the year so far. Davy said that as a writer of one third of the set I was probably more likely to receive positive tweets and tags, which is true. But at the same time, it probably also means I’ve seen a lot more responses and got a wider range of opinions than either of you. There’s certainly a degree to which we all (me included) favour reviews and responses that match our position. They stick in the mind. Davy even hints at that too: ‘and at some of the more trutworthy sites who do not seem more interested in having their name on the product releases and keeping freebies from turning up.’ Which is implicitly suggesting that a review should be discounted because it doesn’t fit their position. Is it not possible your doing that? I probably am too, though like I say, I’ve probably seen a lot more responses than you! Is calling it ‘massively well-received’ hyperbolic. Possibly, though less so if you ignore this place, and as we say it is marketing copy, the land of hyperbole. But suggesting it’s ‘the worst received event release this year’ as was done upthread is also hyperbolic, and I’d say rather more so.
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Post by shallacatop on May 12, 2022 8:31:11 GMT
And you’ve been told other examples of reviews that weren’t positive outside of the forum, suggesting it wasn’t a “massively” or “pretty” positive response. If that’s not sticking your head in the sand, then fair enough, I’ll take your word for it. Actually, the only real example I was given was ‘DWM’ which I’ve got here and seems middling. As mentioned above the site that shall not be named has them all in the 8-9 range, GB is apparently positive (I’ll have to take your word on that), and from a quick google the reviews I can find are all either positive or at worst mixed. There’s even one or two absolute raves. Davy said that as a writer of one third of the set I was probably more likely to receive positive tweets and tags, which is true. But at the same time, it probably also means I’ve seen a lot more responses and got a wider range of opinions than either of you. There’s certainly a degree to which we all (me included) favour reviews and responses that match our position. They stick in the mind. Davy even hints at that too: ‘and at some of the more trutworthy sites who do not seem more interested in having their name on the product releases and keeping freebies from turning up.’ Which is implicitly suggesting that a review should be discounted because it doesn’t fit their position. Is it not possible your doing that? I probably am too, though like I say, I’ve probably seen a lot more responses than you! Is calling it ‘massively well-received’ hyperbolic. Possibly, though less so if you ignore this place, and as we say it is marketing copy, the land of hyperbole. But suggesting it’s ‘the worst received event release this year’ as was done upthread is also hyperbolic, and I’d say rather more so. I think you’re getting your arguments confused a little here, John, and mixing between different people saying different things. Understandable as it’s snowballed! I’m of the view that the set was mixed at best. That’s taking into account the negative response here, middling reviews in DWM and from the usual Big Finish reviewers that tend to be overwhelmingly positive. Also Twitter and Facebook. I’m not on Gallifrey Base so cannot comment about the positive reception on there. And I’m not saying I didn’t see any positive reviews, of course there are some. I just think Genesis has had a substantial number of mixed and negative responses compared to the vast majority of Big Finish releases. And that release feels quite notable for that, so to see a couple of hyperbolic quotes in the news article really stood out to me. Of course these news articles are marketing pieces, and I would never expect anyone to acknowledge negative or mixed responses, but this particular article felt like it was going above and beyond to mitigate the mixed response of Genesis. I don’t disagree that we perhaps favour reviews that match our own views. However, I don’t get pleasure out of seeing a company I love (believe it or not!) putting out releases that are not favourable. And I did see positive reviews in the mix, including a couple on this forum. I appreciate I’m one of the most vocal on the forum, but equally I believe I’m one of the most balanced and fair on the site too when I review releases. So I don’t think it’s entirely a case of going through reviews to see what matches my own and I don’t take pleasure in seeing a less than stellar reception. I also wouldn’t expect or necessarily want Big Finish to acknowledge it, but I think to go in completely the opposite direction is odd. There’s no reason why it couldn’t have been a normal piece like most other articles are, including those where previous sets have been acclaimed. It reads like over compensating.
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dorney
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Post by dorney on May 12, 2022 8:40:23 GMT
I honestly can’t agree. Sorry. Just from that glance at twitter I’m coming round to the idea of ‘massively’ well received. Certainly with taking this place out of the equation.
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Post by mark687 on May 12, 2022 8:42:05 GMT
Actually makes an interesting thought exercise in PR does everything need a caveat if the statement was "Overall/general positive response", that would be accurate and would it generate more positive PR then the printed statement seems to have caused (from this Forum's Perceptive at least.)
Regards
mark687
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Post by chrism1999 on May 12, 2022 11:18:18 GMT
I'm admittedly only just listening to ep. 1 now (enjoying it so far), but the reception on GB has been very positive from what I've seen, and generally (from my experience) collective appreciation of BF releases tends to be less positive over there than it does over here, so I am confused.
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lidar2
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You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on May 12, 2022 12:28:21 GMT
I’m just saying that as someone who cast a relatively wide eye across all reviews, tagged or not, the response I saw (other than here) doesn’t match the one you seem to have seen. Not sure what else I can say. And we’re saying that the use of “massively positive” is inflated, I even think your “pretty positive” is too. It stands out because it’s clearly intended to be OTT and to cover up the less than positive response. As Davy said, I’d also consider the response to be mixed at best and even then that’d be the lower end. So to see that reception and then read “massively positive” is just bizarre. And then to have your lead essentially tell you that you should enjoy the set, despite it being intentionally convoluted and confusing. To me that just reads as it’ll be as unsatisfying as the first time. But to actually use that choice quote, in light of the reception of the first set, alongside “massively positive” is just out of touch. Not sure what else I can say. Hmm. Playing devil's advocate, if for argument's sake a reviewer gave a mark out of 5, then one could make the case that any score above 2.5 was positive, 2.5 was neutral and below 2.5 was negative. Using that logic, a 3/5 score would count as positive and have equal weighting as a 5/5 score, even though 3/5 could equally validly be described as "middling". That same logic could be applied to any score awarded, whatever it was out of. Brings to mind the old saying "there's lies, there's lies and then there's statistics". I'm not suggesting anyone on this forum or in the BF marketing department has been carrying out major mathematical or statistical analysis of the reviews, I think most participants in this discussion are going on a gut feeling based on the reviews they have read. But I think it is conceivable that David Richardson's statement could be made in good faith based on whatever sample of reviews he has seen - which we don't know - and an rather broad definition of "positive".
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