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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 26, 2022 0:36:15 GMT
Bookending his time on RTD's tenure are two double-parters that came to define, and in many ways predict, what Moffat's own tenure would become. Both feature monsters rooted in chilldhood fears and a literal loss of self, and both introduced major players into the show's cast. But which is more up your street?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 0:51:05 GMT
I think it's a close one but the "Just this once..." speech closes it for Empty Child. Also has a better cliffhanger between eps, "Are you my Mummy?" is way more iconic than "Who turned out the lights?" and I think The Doctor has more agency in it, despite thinking he lost Donna in the library. Other parts like the "like I said...once" line are just tremendous, Jack was a kick up the arse mid-season, the "sister" was a terrific bit of casting. Richard Wilson is always welcome. And the gas mask transformation is still horrible.
Which isn't to put down Silence - it also does a lot exceptionally well. The scenes with Colin Salmon are very much a set up for Moffat stories that would question reality and be quite meta. Alex Kingston nails River from the start and the budget the BBC awarded the show by that point where it was their flagship and not a "we hope this works" like Series 1 which is looking very dated nearly 20 years on really shows.
I personally woulda used Steve Pemberton as a big OTT villain at some point though rather than a bit of a dull part like the one he has.
So a win for Eccleston but not by much..2-1 after extra time.
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Post by relativetime on Nov 26, 2022 1:32:32 GMT
The Empty Child is what turned me into a Doctor Who fanatic, so it will always hold a special place in my heart.
But Silence in the Library is another masterpiece absolutely. I think it represents more of Moffat’s priorities as a writer and creative than The Empty Child in many ways. It feels more like the Moffat of Series 5, 6 and 7 anyways. And as far as monsters go, while I think the gas mask children of The Empty Child are by far the creepiest, the Vashta Nerada do have much more staying power. Regardless, no one could make more memorable monsters than Moffat.
The Empty Chile is my personal favorite, but Silence in the Library represents Moffat’s style best.
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Post by Kestrel on Nov 26, 2022 2:17:05 GMT
I never really saw the appeal of The Empty Child, myself. The opening scene was fun, but I didn't find the monsters or the mystery very engaging, and found Jack's debut to be his weakest story. I view it as a "just okay" story. It's fine, but doesn't particularly grab me one way or another.
The Silence in the Library, however, is a fantastic story. The Vashta Narmada are wonderfully threatening villains, clicking at a perfectly instinctual level; the secondary cast is generally pretty entertaining and fun to watch; River's whole character concept is brilliant and Alex Kingston has great, immediate chemistry with David Tennant; and it also gives us a really, really good character piece for Donna -- showing us, basically, her deepest desires -- to be loved and accepted -- and then having that torn away from her. Replaced with the lie that this fulfillment she briefly found... was false.
I wonder to what extent Moffat knew of RTD's plans for the series finale, or if perhaps RTD's plans were affected by what Moffat wrote here, because the parallels to Donna's final, tragic fate are so clear. At least Moffat allowed Donna the small gift of retaining those memories, but still, Jesus. It was a real gut punch.
And beautifully acted all around.
Though, granted, that one character has not aged well at all, thanks to IRL garbage.
EDIT: So, yeah, Silence gets my vote here, hands down. I think it's more interesting on every level -- setting, characters, plot, monsters, music, what have you. It's even got that lovely layer of timey-wimeyness that is conspicuously absent from the series outside of Moffat's run. Compared to that run in full, I think it demonstrates Moffat at his very best -- imaginative ideas and an evocative story grounded in strong characters tinged with mystery and melancholy. I think it still holds up as among his very best episodes.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Nov 26, 2022 7:54:56 GMT
It’s a ridiculously hard choice. Empty/Dances is what convinced me that Who was back and was going to be ok, but Silence/Forest is just magnificently put together and is possibly the best example of what a time travel show can do. It’s elegantly written, superbly acted and just works brilliantly. That said, I think E/D has some better moments in it but the whammy of its reveals aren’t as jaw-dropping as S/F.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Nov 26, 2022 10:24:07 GMT
Empty Child/Doctor Dances is probably one of the top 10 damn near perfect Doctor Who stories from start to finish. Silence in the Library has some wonderful set pieces but … it could have been a one parter, a creepy haunted house horror where survival is brought at the coat of a life intricately linked to the Doctor. Empty Child though? Needed that beautiful cliffhanger and uniquely Who resolution. Needed that extra tension building. Needed space to pay off that one perfect day for the Doctor. Both had lovely performances from the leads, but there is so little on screen Eccelston that this story by virtue of it’s virtues exceeds the virtuous aspects of Silence. Silence is the Doctor finding a mystery, Dances is the Doctor finding redemption.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2022 11:15:15 GMT
I love them both! Empty Child/Doctor Dances and Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead are highlights of Doctor Who's return to TV. I can't really separate them and pick one above the other... they are, for me anyway, shining examples of what Doctor Who episodes should be like. Very atmospheric, well acted and with brilliant scripts, in fact I think they are some of Steven Moffat's best work ever! As good as it gets applies to both pairs of stories, these are the classics of Nu Who... I love re-watching them.
Score draw!
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Post by agentten on Nov 27, 2022 3:10:45 GMT
This is a difficult choice. They're two of the best multipart stories in Who, imo. I give a slight edge to The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances mainly for the character work with The Doctor, who had been great up to that point in the season, but these episodes really defined him for me. The "Just this once..." speech and dancing with Rose were The Doctor coming back out of the walls he built for himself during the Time War and it was brilliantly done character work.
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