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Post by martinw8686 on Nov 19, 2023 14:57:25 GMT
I just want to check in with everyone about this moment from The Magician's Apprentice/The Witch's Familiar.
With the Davros debate, this Moffat moment is being sighted as an example of problematic use of a disabled villain.
I adore the 12th Doctor and must say the moment he confronts the Daleks sipping a cup of tea is one I've always enjoyed.
I've never considered Davros as a wheelchair user until now, the parallel of him being de-chaired is one that is deeply uncomfortable.
In the past I considered Davros half Dalek and perhaps because as a child he was simply a Doctor Who monster I've continued to dehumanise him as an adult.
I imagine Moffat was much the same when he wrote that scene.
I'm wondering if it's a little unfair to critise Moffat in the context of the current debate. Looking back the scene is unwise for a family show and I do feel uncomfortable thinking about it.
I think in terms of what the Doctor does, it's understandable because he's just seen Clara killed and been reminded of the full history of Davros's murders and genocides. However in terms of responsible writing for a family show, Davros should not have been de-chaired.
Is it fair to say Moffat has written the scene innocently, although thoughtlessly. Has he seen Davros as a Doctor Who monster for so long that he missed the comparison to wheelchair users. It can certainly be argued that as show runner he has a responsibility to forsee such things, but I can honestly say I've always viewed Davros's portrayal in an innocent way.
I feel it's important to look back at the context of years old episodes that are now problematic and be better going forward. But also not be too quick to vilify writers without taking a chance to consider all the factors.
All that being said, I'm not disabled and cannot speak about how seeing Davros de-chaired made wheelchair users feel, which ultimately is the most important part of what we're talking about here.
Best wishes to everyone, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
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Post by timleschild on Nov 19, 2023 15:07:23 GMT
hated it at the time.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Nov 19, 2023 16:03:15 GMT
It’s Davros. Frankly, with him having caused the deaths of untold millions of people, I can live with him being uncomfortable for a while. It’s like 13 turning the Master over to the Nazis: he’s a villain and he can also regenerate into a different skin colour if he wants, which was not something that non-fictional prisoners of the Nazis were able to do.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Nov 19, 2023 16:17:08 GMT
It was the Doctor being cruel and vicious.
"Clara, am I a good man?"
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Post by martinw8686 on Nov 19, 2023 16:20:07 GMT
I can be a little naive sometimes, I just take things at face value and I always saw Davros as more Dalek than human. The scene I mentioned didn't register with me because I was caught up in enjoying the rest of the episode. I loved the back and forth between the Doctor and Davros, the dynamic with Clara and Missy, that despite everything the Doctor showed mercy and kindness. I thought the episode had a lot of heart but I do feel bad not seeing the negative connotation of that scene. In retrospect the Doctor commandeering the life support chair could have worked just as well with him repurposing pre placed Dalek spare parts. |
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Post by martinw8686 on Nov 19, 2023 16:54:43 GMT
It was the Doctor being cruel and vicious. "Clara, am I a good man?" I've always interpreted the "never cruel or cowardly" sentiment to be what the Doctor aspires to be but sometimes fails at because when pushed in extreme circumstances these are things that test him. When faced with saving the child Davros, the Doctor ran because he had seen what Davros becomes. Davros is basically a sci-fi Hitler. I don't think of what the Doctor did in that seen as cruel and vicious. He'd just seen his best friend murdered, he's trapped on Skaro in a city full of Daleks, with no TARDIS and the only resources he has are in that room. Remember that chair, has a shield to deflect Dalek weapons and he's stolen it from DAVROS, a being of pure evil and hate, responsible for the deaths of millions. Looking in retrospect and with the current debate over stereotypical disabled villains, I think it’s not the right message to portray on screen. In terms of actions of the Doctor in the scene, I think he's justified in terms of the survival options available to him at the time. In contrast Missy and Clara kill a Dalek to steal it’s casing/travel device. These are the resources at the characters disposal. |
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Post by relativetime on Nov 19, 2023 17:54:44 GMT
It’s not good, that’s for sure. At the time I didn’t really think anything of it, but with hindsight and a lot more awareness, yeah I think it does come across as a bit tone deaf.
However, I don’t think a lot of people who are bringing it up now are doing so out of good faith. To me it seems like a bunch of people on Twitter trying to score points against a writer they don’t like instead of bringing up genuine grievances they’ve always held. Quite honestly I don’t think Moffat meant the joke to be interpreted as ableist, which doesn’t mean it’s right but it’s not fair to imply it’s some deeply held belief of his either like I feel some people are implying.
EDIT: I think I need to add that I don’t at all think that’s what everyone who’s bringing this up now is doing and looking back I can acknowledge people were saying these things even back then - I just wasn’t paying attention at the time. I admit I’m a little sensitive to when people criticize one of my favorite writers.
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Post by martinw8686 on Nov 19, 2023 18:39:05 GMT
It’s not good, that’s for sure. At the time I didn’t really think anything of it, but with hindsight and a lot more awareness, yeah I think it does come across as a bit tone deaf. However, I don’t think a lot of people who are bringing it up now are doing so out of good faith. To me it seems like a bunch of people on Twitter trying to score points against a writer they don’t like instead of bringing up genuine grievances they’ve always held. Quite honestly I don’t think Moffat meant the joke to be interpreted as ableist, which doesn’t mean it’s right but it’s not fair to imply it’s some deeply held belief of his either like I feel some people are implying. That was my fear with the spotlight on Moffat's Davros episodes. Times have changed but I also honestly think no malice was intended in his writing. It's also important to remember his era championed a lot of positive, inclusive ideas. They may have appeared clumsy or heavy handed to his critics but they were progressive and meant with good intentions. Moffat championed a female Master, paving the way for a female Doctor. He wrote heroic characters like Vastra and Jenny, drawing attention to the difficulties their relationship had in Victorian England. Moffat brought us Bill as a companion, the episode Thin Ice giving us the wonderful moment the Doctor punched a racist. |
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Post by mark687 on Nov 19, 2023 18:50:41 GMT
A quick Joke/Plot Device in questionable taste
Regards
mark687
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Post by timleschild on Nov 19, 2023 18:56:05 GMT
It was the Doctor being cruel and vicious. "Clara, am I a good man?" No. You are not. Awful Doctor. Worst of the modern ear. Most rude. Hypocritical git. |
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Post by martinw8686 on Nov 19, 2023 19:25:35 GMT
It was the Doctor being cruel and vicious. "Clara, am I a good man?" No. You are not. Awful Doctor. Worst of the modern ear. Most rude. Hypocritical git. I'm sorry to hear you feel that strongly about the 12th Doctor. I hope you were able to enjoy some elements of his era. I enjoyed 12s era very much but didn't gel with 13. I suppose their very much polar opposites, 12 is the Doctor at their most grumpy and dark and 13 at their most friendly and light. The first Doctors I experienced were the 3rd and Hinchcliffe era 4th Doctor, so with 12, I felt the modern era had a Doctor closer in style to the classics I fell in love with. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2023 20:28:29 GMT
I didn't hate it but I thought it was a stupid thing for the 12th Doctor to be doing... |
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Post by number13 on Nov 19, 2023 20:29:22 GMT
No. You are not. Awful Doctor. Worst of the modern ear. Most rude. Hypocritical git. I'm sorry to hear you feel that strongly about the 12th Doctor. I hope you were able to enjoy some elements of his era. I enjoyed 12s era very much but didn't gel with 13. I suppose their very much polar opposites, 12 is the Doctor at their most grumpy and dark and 13 at their most friendly and light. The first Doctors I experienced were the 3rd and Hinchcliffe era 4th Doctor, so with 12, I felt the modern era had a Doctor closer in style to the classics I fell in love with. Jon Pertwee is still my Doctor after all these years, so it's perhaps no surprise that Peter Capaldi instantly became my New Series Doctor! Brilliant. Even if he doesn't generally show the warmth and charm of the Third...
'She's my...' 'Carer.' 'That's right. She cares so I don't have to.'
('modern ear'? I must admit I never noticed their modernity but still, it is the New Series.)
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Post by timleschild on Nov 20, 2023 14:20:16 GMT
I'm sorry to hear you feel that strongly about the 12th Doctor. I hope you were able to enjoy some elements of his era. I enjoyed 12s era very much but didn't gel with 13. I suppose their very much polar opposites, 12 is the Doctor at their most grumpy and dark and 13 at their most friendly and light. The first Doctors I experienced were the 3rd and Hinchcliffe era 4th Doctor, so with 12, I felt the modern era had a Doctor closer in style to the classics I fell in love with. Jon Pertwee is still my Doctor after all these years, so it's perhaps no surprise that Peter Capaldi instantly became my New Series Doctor! Brilliant. Even if he doesn't generally show the warmth and charm of the Third...
'She's my...' 'Carer.' 'That's right. She cares so I don't have to.'
('modern ear'? I must admit I never noticed their modernity but still, it is the New Series.)
era, a mispeling... |
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