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Post by sherlock on Dec 10, 2023 21:39:56 GMT
On the other hand: Though Displaced in Time Amy and Rory lived a full Life. Though the Doctor doesn't know it Clara and Me swan off though Time and Space Also he doesn't know that Bill's Soul is half of a Space fairing entity in a Long term Relationship with itself The Flux, Time was bored with the Doctor doing to much good so had to make sure half the universe goes down the Preverbal Its all in the perspective the Individual Audience have viewed the show in Regards mark687 Sorry Mark but You've done what The Doctor did and the Toymaker calls him on - excusing some horrible fates! Rory and Clara could never see their families again, The Doctor was told by lovely Brian to just make sure they got home safely and he didn't. Clara is a heartbeat from death and at the mercy of fate or The Timelords. Bill exists in consciousness only, knowing her body has been hacked to bits. Remember how Tennant reacted when Rassilon suggested that becoming beings of consciousness was a good thing for The Timelords? So clearly he doesn't view it as "winning" - it caused him to use The Moment!. "BUT THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN" was as brilliant and cutting as when Davros showed how The Doctor says he hates guns...and yet weaponises his friends. To both Toymaker and Davros, The Doctor has no answer, because he knows they're right. And that's part of his pain he gets to excise at the end too. It’s a brilliant scene. And if you want to go overly fannish, you can also very easily add to the list (spoilers for DWM comics and relatively recent Big Finish 10DAs and 11 Chronicles)- {Spoilers} “Majenta Pryce, the entrepreneur extraordinaire. Burnt to a crisp.”
“Majenta lives on as long as I remember her.”
“OH WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN!”
———-
“Mark 7 the fearsome robot-soldier, gunned down as the Doctor watched.”
“Mark lived on. He got redemption.”
“OH WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN!”
————-
“And then Valarie. The cybernetic woman of the future. Taken apart to restore the Doctor’s fragile memory.”
“I helped her come together again.”
“OH WELL THAT’S ALRIGHT THEN!”
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 21:43:56 GMT
On the other hand: Though Displaced in Time Amy and Rory lived a full Life. Though the Doctor doesn't know it Clara and Me swan off though Time and Space Also he doesn't know that Bill's Soul is half of a Space fairing entity in a Long term Relationship with itself The Flux, Time was bored with the Doctor doing to much good so had to make sure half the universe goes down the Preverbal Its all in the perspective the Individual Audience have viewed the show in Regards mark687 Sorry Mark but You've done what The Doctor did and the Toymaker calls him on - excusing some horrible fates! Rory and Clara could never see their families again, The Doctor was told by lovely Brian to just make sure they got home safely and he didn't. Clara is a heartbeat from death and at the mercy of fate or The Timelords. Bill exists in consciousness only, knowing her body has been hacked to bits. Remember how Tennant reacted when Rassilon suggested that becoming beings of consciousness was a good thing for The Timelords? So clearly he doesn't view it as "winning" - it caused him to use The Moment!. "BUT THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN" was as brilliant and cutting as when Davros showed how The Doctor says he hates guns...and yet weaponises his friends. To both Toymaker and Davros, The Doctor has no answer, because he knows they're right. And that's part of his pain he gets to excise at the end too. Moffatt Chickened out Re Amy and Rory. Amy's Parents were so generic they didn't need to be there, and he even storyboarded a scene where Brian met his Grandson, and Clara's Dad and Gran what was the point apart from the Turkey (what may've worked better if we'd had more scenes with her Mum they may've had more impact) The shared conciseness of Bill loves her "All you Need is Love." As I said its all in the perspective of the individual Audience Member I think if we take the position the Toymaker's "Right" then the Doctor never has the "Right" to Forgive Themselves which was apparently the entire of the Specials according to the Producers . Regards mark687
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Post by ollychops on Dec 10, 2023 21:51:14 GMT
If you guys are interested in the views of a casual viewer - my dad particularly wasn't impressed by the episode. Although both parents weren't taken by Wild Blue Yonder either because it was "weird" so take that as you will.
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 10, 2023 21:54:12 GMT
The way some are talking about bi-generation, they seem to have assumed every subsequent Doctor will now also bi-generate. I don't think it's safe to assume anything and what happens when Ncuti decides to leave will depend on the showrunner leading the following series. If it's not RTD then the next showrunner may want to do their own thing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 21:56:50 GMT
Sorry Mark but You've done what The Doctor did and the Toymaker calls him on - excusing some horrible fates! Rory and Clara could never see their families again, The Doctor was told by lovely Brian to just make sure they got home safely and he didn't. Clara is a heartbeat from death and at the mercy of fate or The Timelords. Bill exists in consciousness only, knowing her body has been hacked to bits. Remember how Tennant reacted when Rassilon suggested that becoming beings of consciousness was a good thing for The Timelords? So clearly he doesn't view it as "winning" - it caused him to use The Moment!. "BUT THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN" was as brilliant and cutting as when Davros showed how The Doctor says he hates guns...and yet weaponises his friends. To both Toymaker and Davros, The Doctor has no answer, because he knows they're right. And that's part of his pain he gets to excise at the end too. Moffatt Chickened out Re Amy ans Rory Amy's were so generic they didn't need to be there, and he even storyboarded a scene where Brian met his Grandson and Clara's Dad and Gran what was the point apart from the Turkey (what may've worked better if we'd had more scenes with her Mum they may've had more impact) The shared conciseness of Bill loves her "All you Need is Love." As I said its all in the perspective of the individual Audience Member I think if we take the position the Toymaker's "Right" then the Doctor never has the "Right" to Forgive Themselves. Regards mark687 I don't think that's the intent of the episode, or scene. Deciding one is right and one is wrong there is one of the few aspects that isn't binary. Amy's family may be nothing characters....they're still people. Who can never see their daughter again. And Moffat didn't storyboard that scene (it's called "P.S." for anyone who wants to look it up) - it was by a certain Chris Chibnall. So he was "fixing" Moffat's work just like some say RTD is doing to him in this ep. The Toymaker can be right in his accusations (he is) AND The Doctor can forgive themselves at the end too. That was surely the entire point of Ncuti's speech and the happy ending - that now the old Doctor accepted those actions, accepted everything they have buried deep down..he can be at peace with it. At peace for forgiveness and a quiet retirement for one Doctor, and at peace for a soft-reboot without the baggage of Time Wars, dead companions, MAVIC CHEN even for Ncuti who can fly off with a new perspective and a clean slate. It's the first step in therapy, admitting your problems - I've been there. You can't forgive yourself and take further steps (literally hug yourself in The Doctor's case) untill you do. The Doctor, even with Taz, still clammed up. Still lied. Still said "I'm fine" and kept secrets. This was their healing beginning. And they had to own who they are and what they've done to achieve it.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 21:56:57 GMT
The way some are talking about bi-generation, they seem to have assumed every subsequent Doctor will now also bi-generate. I don't think it's safe to assume anything and what happens when Ncuti decides to leave will depend on the showrunner leading the following series. If it's not RTD then the next showrunner may want to do their own thing. No it shouldn't become a Standard thing. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 22:00:24 GMT
The way some are talking about bi-generation, they seem to have assumed every subsequent Doctor will now also bi-generate. I don't think it's safe to assume anything and what happens when Ncuti decides to leave will depend on the showrunner leading the following series. If it's not RTD then the next showrunner may want to do their own thing. We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 22:06:51 GMT
Moffatt Chickened out Re Amy ans Rory Amy's were so generic they didn't need to be there, and he even storyboarded a scene where Brian met his Grandson and Clara's Dad and Gran what was the point apart from the Turkey (what may've worked better if we'd had more scenes with her Mum they may've had more impact) The shared conciseness of Bill loves her "All you Need is Love." As I said its all in the perspective of the individual Audience Member I think if we take the position the Toymaker's "Right" then the Doctor never has the "Right" to Forgive Themselves. Regards mark687 I don't think that's the intent of the episode, or scene. Deciding one is right and one is wrong there is one of the few aspects that isn't binary. Amy's family may be nothing characters....they're still people. Who can never see their daughter again. And Moffat didn't storyboard that scene (it's called "P.S." for anyone who wants to look it up) - it was by a certain Chris Chibnall. So he was "fixing" Moffat's work just like some say RTD is doing to him in this ep. The Toymaker can be right in his accusations (he is) AND The Doctor can forgive themselves at the end too. That was surely the entire point of Ncuti's speech and the happy ending - that now the old Doctor accepted those actions, accepted everything they have buried deep down..he can be at peace with it. At peace for forgiveness and a quiet retirement for one Doctor, and at peace for a soft-reboot without the baggage of Time Wars, dead companions, MAVIC CHEN even for Ncuti who can fly off with a new perspective and a clean slate. It's the first step in therapy, admitting your problems - I've been there. You can't forgive yourself and take further steps (literally hug yourself in The Doctor's case) untill you do. The Doctor, even with Taz, still clammed up. Still lied. Still said "I'm fine" and kept secrets. This was their healing beginning. And they had to own who they are and what they've done to achieve it. So the next time such a Accusation/Truth comes up what's an appropriate response from 15? And Cheers for the Writer correct Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 22:10:55 GMT
We can't possibly know what such a scene's response would be without the scenario, the characterisation of Ncuti and the stakes. But we can know, from this ep, The Doctor won't be underpinned by the sadness of failing their friends, of all the battles won and lost and...Mavic Chen!
It's exactly why the ep works as an "end" for "New Who" and for 60 years of the show - and for a soft-reboot to launch out of it. It's both a happy ending - and a warm beginning. Binary!
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 10, 2023 22:15:18 GMT
The way some are talking about bi-generation, they seem to have assumed every subsequent Doctor will now also bi-generate. I don't think it's safe to assume anything and what happens when Ncuti decides to leave will depend on the showrunner leading the following series. If it's not RTD then the next showrunner may want to do their own thing. No it shouldn't become a Standard thing. Regards mark687 I agree. I'm open to new regenerations having different aspects to keep the show fresh but continuous bi-generation would undermine the jeopardy.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 22:23:18 GMT
No it shouldn't become a Standard thing. Regards mark687 I agree. I'm open to new regenerations having different aspects to keep the show fresh but continuous bi-generation would undermine the jeopardy. True. & lest we forget the classic era had quite different regenerations for a lot of it. It's nu who that settles on the energy exploding stuff. My fear about what has happened is that they have refused to let Tennant go completely. As good as he was no one actor should be bigger than the show.
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 10, 2023 22:26:01 GMT
The way some are talking about bi-generation, they seem to have assumed every subsequent Doctor will now also bi-generate. I don't think it's safe to assume anything and what happens when Ncuti decides to leave will depend on the showrunner leading the following series. If it's not RTD then the next showrunner may want to do their own thing. We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it. I get that RTD has said this about Doctors pre 14 but I didn't think he ment this would now be the norm for any Doctors post 15. Also are the returned past Doctors in our universe/timeline or a new splinter reality/alternative universe? Surely we can't have ongoing bi-generations/new Tardis for all new incoming Doctors, otherwise we'll have universe full of the Doctor and every situation will be solvable in a matter of seconds.
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Post by ollychops on Dec 10, 2023 22:28:17 GMT
The way some are talking about bi-generation, they seem to have assumed every subsequent Doctor will now also bi-generate. I don't think it's safe to assume anything and what happens when Ncuti decides to leave will depend on the showrunner leading the following series. If it's not RTD then the next showrunner may want to do their own thing. We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it.He might be the one saying it, but until it becomes text in the show itself (not supplementary material like ToTT), I'm just ignoring what RTD says as it comes across as his theory/headcanon in the commentary.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 22:32:09 GMT
We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it. I get that RTD has said this about Doctors pre 14 but I didn't think he ment this would now be the norm for any Doctors post 15. Also are the returned past Doctors in our universe/timeline or a new splinter reality/alternative universe? Surely we can't have ongoing bi-generations/new Tardis for all new incoming Doctors, otherwise we'll have universe full of the Doctor and every situation will be solvable in a matter of seconds. Well all this stuff about past Doctors was only said behind the scenes. So take it with a pinch of salt (yes salt).
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 22:32:51 GMT
We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it.He might be the one saying it, but until it becomes text in the show itself (not supplementary material like ToTT), I'm just ignoring what RTD says as it comes across as his theory/headcanon in the commentary. Exactly!
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Post by mark687 on Dec 10, 2023 22:35:20 GMT
We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it.He might be the one saying it, but until it becomes text in the show itself (not supplementary material like ToTT), I'm just ignoring what RTD says as it comes across as his theory/headcanon in the commentary. Yes personally I found that part of the commentary an unnecessary Word Salad "It's all Cannon but it doesn't need following up" would be clearer Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 22:44:22 GMT
We're not assuming - Russell says it on the commentary and Collinson says that's why Sylv's Doctor has the line about being from a different timeline in Tales Of The TARDIS. It doesn't mean he needs to - or is even remotely thinking of - bringing back old Doctors but it opens any door he wants, or doesn't want. And his successors. Though he already said it's where he sees The Two Doctors as coming from, rather than the Season 6B theory. So it's not some wild fan theory - the head honcho is the one espousing it.He might be the one saying it, but until it becomes text in the show itself (not supplementary material like ToTT), I'm just ignoring what RTD says as it comes across as his theory/headcanon in the commentary. Tales Of The TARDIS isn't part of the show? It's Doctor Who eps presented by the BBC and produced by the current production team with their licenced characters. It....happened. It's not like a throwaway line on eps of Unleashed that you could chalk up as "supplementary material". As I said - it doesn't really matter if anyone likes it or not - he just put the idea out there and can pick it up if he likes, or not. Like The Timeless Child it leaves doors that can either be opened or moved passed.
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Post by martinw8686 on Dec 10, 2023 22:48:51 GMT
I agree. I'm open to new regenerations having different aspects to keep the show fresh but continuous bi-generation would undermine the jeopardy. True. & lest we forget the classic era had quite different regenerations for a lot of it. It's nu who that settles on the energy exploding stuff. My fear about what has happened is that they have refused to let Tennant go completely. As good as he was no one actor should be bigger than the show. I think the best thing to do with Tennant now is use him occasionally. Perhaps a mini series after Ncuti's second series has aired, to give Ncuti a break. But any Future Tennant should be used in a way that benefits the main show, Ncuti is The Doctor now, he is what will carry the main narrative forward. Tennant's story should be one that has a fixed ending. He lives a semi retirement with the Nobles, occasionally having adventures but he should grow old and not regenerate again.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 10, 2023 22:54:17 GMT
True. & lest we forget the classic era had quite different regenerations for a lot of it. It's nu who that settles on the energy exploding stuff. My fear about what has happened is that they have refused to let Tennant go completely. As good as he was no one actor should be bigger than the show. I think the best thing to do with Tennant now is use him occasionally. Perhaps a mini series after Ncuti's second series has aired, to give Ncuti a break. But any Future Tennant should be used in a way that benefits the main show, Ncuti is The Doctor now, he is what will carry the main narrative forward. Tennant's story should be one that has a fixed ending. He lives a semi retirement with the Nobles, occasionally having adventures but he should grow old and not regenerate again. I fear that will happen. Bringing him back every now & then. Keeps the man in work I guess if other roles dry up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2023 23:01:43 GMT
I think the best thing to do with Tennant now is use him occasionally. Perhaps a mini series after Ncuti's second series has aired, to give Ncuti a break. But any Future Tennant should be used in a way that benefits the main show, Ncuti is The Doctor now, he is what will carry the main narrative forward. Tennant's story should be one that has a fixed ending. He lives a semi retirement with the Nobles, occasionally having adventures but he should grow old and not regenerate again. I fear that will happen. Bringing him back every now & then. Keeps the man in work I guess if other roles dry up. I think one of the country's most popular actors who has done dozens of prime time shows, worked in the past few years on originals for Netflix, ITV, BBC, Dreamworks, Amazon Prime and Disney+ - on top of roles in Marvel and Star Wars and an open invite from the Royal Shakespeare Company given the runaway successes he's had there - should be OK about worrying about the job centre any time soon!
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