aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jan 20, 2016 14:23:34 GMT
A few months ago, on another forum I got into a interesting discussion about Night Of The Doctor, The War Doctor, and how and whether McGann's regeneration in NOTD reflected the character of the 8th Doctor, since then I've been slowly collecting my thoughts on NOTD and wrote them out in surprisingly lengthy detail, two years down the line from NOTD, with Sir Hurt starting to reprise his role in the audios I think it's still a relevant and interesting topic to think about, and I thought I'd share my thoughts here, if anyone was interested. It is worth noting that NOTD was basically my introduction to McGann's Doctor and Big Finish, so I realize I have a biased viewpoint. Anyway, click for my thoughts: {Spoiler} In my opinion The Night Of The Doctor remains a very clever piece of writing and one of the most tragic, thought provoking regeneration stories of them all, moving though heroism to tragedy, ticking most of the boxes of a typical Who episode, and capping off Paul McGann's era in less than seven minutes. It isn't a groundbreaking story by any means, and as a seven minute minisode it does come across as somewhat rushed (reintroducing and regenerating the 8th Doctor in a suitably dramatic manner, setting up the scale of the time war and explaining the how and why of the War Doctor would have been hard even in a standard episode), but it remains a very fitting, gripping ending for McGann's Doctor i.m.o, packed with a surprising amount of pathos and nods to the Eigtht Doctor's legacy.
Firstly it's interesting to note the parallels between NOTD and the TV Movie. The 7th Doctor made a brief appearance in the TV Movie, which hints he had already been through a significant ordeal not too long ago off-screen (and doesn't bother explaining why he was transporting the Master's ashes...whilst NOTD dosen't bother explaining how the Doctor happened to be in the same general area as Cass's ship and Karn...though this may be closer to a plot hole or a 'wait and see' part of writing than reference...), while after his regeneration, his immediate successor has massive involvement with the story. In NOTD McGann makes a brief, unexpected appearance (for some...but those of us who had followed the rumours at the time kinda knew what to expect) but with a huge involvement in the plot of his regeneration story, while his immediate successor has no involvement with the plot, but immediately prepares to enter a the huge conflict followin off-screen. The TV Movie and NOTD are mirroring book ends for the 8th Doctor, both starting midway through a wider story. The Seventh Doctor regenerated into the 8th a couple of hours after his supposed "death", in NOTD , the Eighth Doctor dies in a spaceship crash and is resurrected long enough to allow him to regenerate into the War Doctor, whether on purpose or on accident, some of the plot structure of NOTD very much hearkens back to McGann's first story (and in some ways The 5th Doctor's final story 'The Caves of Adrozani-a very kind, emotionally fragile Doctor battling against the odds to save a woman he barely knows), at first glance it's arguably overtly referenctial, but I'd still argue it was a nice move on Moffat's part, McGann sadly never had the chance to explore the character very far on T.V and it feels only right his final adventure (or perhaps more accurately, the bit we see of it...) pays tribute to his first.
The very first thing the Doctor says in this episode is refer to himself as a Doctor, the very last thing he does is declare himself to be "Doctor no more". It's rather ironic, in the TV Movie the 8th Doctor started out as an amnesiac unsure of how or what he was 'WHO AM I???' but upon regaining his memories in the park showed himself as something of a joyous romantic, in NOTD, he dies by choosing to regenerate into something the antithesis of his usual personality, it's a very interesting parallel and a full circle journey for McGann's Doctor, told in barely a hour's screentime.
Watching back NOTD recently, I thought it was interesting to think about the reasoning behind upgrading the Eighth Doctor's outfit in NOTD (beyond the obvious facts that A) his costume would have changed in such a long lifespan and B) Licencing issues meaning his Dark Eyes costume couldn't be used). The new outfit does seem to take limited inspiration from the costume he wears in the Dark Eyes (and presuemably all of the Doom Coalition) stories-darker hues, more practical and 'lived in' material that seems more like an adventurer's day to day clothes, rather than the Edwardian Costume he wears in the TV Movie (not that I don't like his TV Movie costume, it suited his younger personality perfectly). I recall McGann mentioining in an interview (it may have been on the Dark Eyes Bonus Disc) that the leather Jacket he picks up in Dark Eyes was meant to be a WW1 Naval Jacket-reflecting both the idea of the Doctor as a 'space mariner' of sorts (i.e much like a sailor he's a wanderer in time and space, the difference being the vortex and space are his ocean) and his persona hardening by age and darkness as the time war approached, here it's evolved into a trench coat.
But overall, the 8th Doctor's new costume in NOTD seems to be a more aged and 'grown up' version of his TV Movie costume — still vaguely Edwardian and with similar elements and colour scheme, but redesigned from the ground up as something more practical. Like his tardis, it's very battered around the edges, the recycling idea suggests i.m.o that the Doctor was desperate to return to 'better times' (or perhaps, as he tells Cass desperate to keep telling himself he was still the Doctor and still a good man) and recapture his early, carefree days. It also reinforces the idea of his Doctor coming full circle (a new but familiar costume shows the passing of time, but reassures fans of the TV Movie we are in some ways picking up where we left off again for McGann's Doctor)...all of this was probably obvious to most viewers watching it but I hadn't really thought about the new costume (beyond thinking it looks really cool) before.
NOTD, despite being less than 7 minutes long packs alot into its narrative, with room for a three act structure. The first part of NOTD takes a regular event of 'New Who' - the introduction of a potential new companion, as the Doctor invites Cass to travel with him, and then twists it into something completely unexpected, the expected ''bigger on the inside” line is cheerfully delivered as always, but becomes an immediate source of anger/terror for Cass, as she immediately rejects the Doctors's offer to travel with him, once she realises what he is, and chooses death instead, quite a nasty way to set up the Doctor's heroism, and it throws the audiences's expectation out of the window.(A couple of easter eggs I like were noted on the TV tropes page; in the novel The Eight Doctors, which starts immediately after the end of the TV movie, the 8th Dr says: "Let's just say that I'm a Doctor. There's more than one, you know. Clearly, I'm not the one you were expecting.", his first lines in NOTD are very similar. Whilst The Doctor arguing with a suspicious female acquaintance he's just met through a locked door in a moment of crisis is another callback to the TV movie, he does the same with Grace in her house).
Cass's action does several things at once, firstly and obviously, it offers a sufficiently important reason for the Doctor to die in the opening minutes of the minisode , a companion refusing to join the Doctor (especially one as cheery and open as Eight) is a very rare occurrence and it instantly explains to viewers just how bad the time war is getting, if even the Doctor is seen in a negative light (and such a battered state) and has to clarify that he is 'one of the nice ones'.
It also gives McGann some simple, but clear and strong material to react against and guide his performance that doesn’t really require any characterization or detailed info dumping about the 8th Doctor, much of his performance in the TV Movie i.m.o (from memory) was driven by the Doctor's enthusiasm about figuring how who the new 'him'was, here with only a few minutes to spare Moffat evidently has the sense/lack of courage to give McGann dialogue that makes a lot of the decisions for him here his Doctor is very much sure in morals and purpose (however misguided), the story is driving the Doctor, not the other way around, and I think it was more McGann's pronunciation and body language that truly sold the persona of the 8th Doctor here, rather than the lines themselves (though the dead pan 'The Front crashes first think things through!' 'Bring me knitting' and the moral idealism of 'Yes, but I'm one of the nice ones' seem straight out of a B.F audio), Moffat though apparently a fan of McGann (I recall reading he was actually approached by B.F when it first started, but turned them down as he only wanted to write for the then unsigned McGann) probably wasn't overly familiar with McGann's Doctor and wisely i.m.o lets him play the role rather than writing it for him.
This is more obvious on Karn (8 having met them in Sisters of the Flame/ Vengeance of Morbius). This second section is basically a three minute climax - a quick build up to McGann’s regeneration and, in turn, to Day of the Doctor. NOTD was the first official acknowledgment of the nature of the War Doctor (though most of us had guessed who he was months beforehand)and exactly how he fitted into continuity, so McGann who was himself the first attempted torchbearer from Old to New Who does the same sort of thing once more passing on the character to another 'missing link' in the list of Doctors.
A would be companion and innocent bystander dying as a consequence of the Doctors actions seems exciting/tragic enough to justify a regeneration (as we all know companions of Eight dying is regular occurrence unfortunately for him, no wonder the poor bugger didn't want to fight) but justifying the abandonment of the title and promise of “Doctor” is a much harder to sell especially with a largely unknown doctor (reestablishing McGann, and/or turning his character around in just one minisode or ep was always going to be hard no matter how Moffat wrote him) but one with a very clear personality and legacy, it's something that relies on the mythical weight of the barely explored Time War, and prior knowledge of 8's persona to get the job done, I think McGann makes it work largely due to his charisma, but NOTD is perhaps a little too ambitious for seven minutes in this regard.
The Eighth Doctor dies by getting caught in a jumble of continuity references, downbeat darkness, and small scale heroism, after cheerfully blundering into someone else's mess with out of the blue with little to no apparent plan, now having listened to almost of all of McGann's audios and read an increasingly large number of the EDAs, I think it remains an oddly fitting ending for such a last minute, quickly written production....
I rather like the symbolism in Eight's first and last actions as the Doctor-in the TV Movie, when Eight is looking for clothes in the hospital right after regenerating, he finds the Wild Bill costume in a locker, reaching into the locker he finds the gun holster, examines it quizzically and puts it down straight away. Before taking the Elixir on Karn he picks up Cass' bandoleer and surveys it forlornly, when he regenerates into the War Doctor, he immediately picks up Cass's bandoleer and puts it on, this is pretty powerful i.m.o , one of Eight's first acts was showing his abhorrence of violence, whereas the War Doctor's first was in immediate preparation for it. To me that's a true journey (if a very obvious piece of symbolism) the 8th Doctor had spent his life trying to stick to a strick moral code, avoiding using weaponry or conflict if he could, very much a healer not warrior, this one act shows his journey from idealistic romantic to battle scarred adult forced to grow up and take responsibility, he is given the choice as to how to regenerate, and picks a warrior, the very thing he had spent his incarnation striving not to be, it's a tragic and complete 180 degrees journey told in barely an hour of screentime.
This tragic irony is proven further by looking at the 'Promise': Never cowardly or cruel. Never give up, never give in (another ironic callback for Eight, in Zagreus, infected by the virus of the title name he encounters visions of the previous Doctors who tell him 'No matter what happens, no matter the odds, we never, ever, ever give up!')
Eight broke the promise by finally giving up , it's more tragic considering he was one of the least cruelest Doctors of them all. Perceived as a monster simply by being a Time Lord, no matter how much of a 'good man' he tries to be, Eights final downfall as a Doctor was remaining a moral idealist till death, it's a tragic, heroic way to go.
My interpretation is that the Doctor chose to crash (In Max Warp, 8 supposedly dies in a spaceship crash but it turns out to be a flight program, whilst in "To the Death" he wanted to save Lucie Miller from a crashing spaceship but was convinced not to. Here he actually does die in a spaceship crash, after failing once more to save a passenger on board...he dosen't have much luck with spaceships does he?) because finally broken, he understood, via the death of Cass, that no matter what he did, the war would continue to tear apart the universe and no amount of 'healing' (metaphorical or actual) as the Doctor would/could bring it to an end. The 8th Doctor might have saved himself from the crash by simply stepping back into the TARDIS and running away once more, but he chose not to, staying in a futile bid to persuade Cass to put aside he hatred and terror and come with him, although the last living act of this Doctor was one of futile heroism (a gesture which tells you everything you need to know about 8), the 8th Doctor was actually the first to break the promise by giving up and giving in to his fears.
That desperation arguably carries over into the actions of the War Doctor, who, though born into battle, doing terrible, but necessary deeds in the process and (judging from his personality in DOTD, Engines of War and Only The Monstorous) believing himself to be a monster wanted nothing more than to be the Doctor, to prove himself as equal to the man he once was, yet fought willingly all the same, the morality and courage of the War Doctor acts as an inversion of the 8ths i.m.o, as he walks an opposite path, starting out as a outcast warrior, ironically becoming more of a doctor as he approaches the decisions to deploy the moment, it subverts the usual journey you'd expect a soldier to follow in a war, and i.m.o is one of a number of reasons why creating the War Doctor over using 8 or 9 made for a more interesting story (even it was a piece of retroactive continuity thought off at a reasonably late stage of production)
That said, it is hard to say 8 wouldn't be changed and developed and changed by the war. Although the 8th Dr seemingly retains his streak as a romantic, largely idealistic pacifist at the time of his death (albeit rather wearier and more bitter around the edges) it doesn't mean he didn't experience the full horrors of the war first hand, it is very clear from the way he says his final lines in NOTD he was close to breaking point, doing everything he could to stay the 'good man' to the very end.
Thinking about how NOTD reflects his journey in the audios, this conversation between him and Lucy springs to mind, reflecting on his differences with the 7th Doctor:
The Doctor: "This is how evil starts. With the belief that the ends justify the means. But once you start down that road, there's no turning back. What if you can save five million lives but you have to let ten people die? Or a hundred? Or a hundred thousand? Where do you stop?"
Lucie Miller: "But you did. You did stop."
Doctor: "I did. But by then I ended up traveling alone. Because I couldn't trust myself with anyone's life. Not after..."
Lucie: "Not after? Not saying. OK. Then what made you change from being a lonely bean counter to companionable time traveler?"
Doctor: "A new body. A clean slate, a fresh start. From that day I knew I never would countenance the death of a single living being. That's why I no longer travel alone. "
Lucie: "Why?"
Doctor: "So I could never forget how precious a single life is."
Coupled with the memory of his much younger self's evident terror and disgust at encountering the older, war weary version of him (an encounter he had probably repeated from the opposite perspective pretty recently) in 'Mary's Story', I think 8's moral posistion on the war shown in NOTD was very fitting, even if Dark Eyes etc hadn't really begun to explore that far into his timeline at that point.
Personally I think there's is more drama (and likely better stories) seeing a Doctor pushed close to the edge, rather than falling right over it, a man who makes the choice to become a warrior is more cliched than a man faced with no choice (and i.m.o harder to sympathize with, I guess it depends on how cliched you view the Doctors pacist streak is) The War Doctor is born into Battle rather than forced into it, it was a massive break from the character of the Doctor, now that Hurt has signed up for the audios, it will be interesting to see how far BF explore the parallels and differences between the 8th and War Doctors, we are going to hear two very different viewpoints of the time war, starting at opposite ends of the conflict oever the coming years, and I for one can't wait...
I've read some argue 8s actions and refusal to fight are an abdication of responsibility and that it diminishes this Dr by giving him the easy way out, and whilst's that's an easy point to make, I don't agree. The more I've explored McGann's Doctor, the more I see it as a testament to his strength of character, to me there's something reassuring and poetic, that the Eighth doctor doesn't consider his long history of personal losses and grievances good enough cause for walking down the road to double genocide (the Doctor has always seemed to be above petty grudges i.m.o), rather the losses and grievances he suffered turn him in the opposite direction, steering him into doing his utmost to save lives from the outskirts of the conflict, seventeen years after his first appearance he'd grown older and wearier but remained fundamentally the same sort of Doctor. More importantly McGann virtually picks up where he left off i.m.o, you can still see traces of 'These Shoes! They fit perfectly!'in his performance, the wry humour and warmth of the TV Movie are there, but it's easy to see them worn down by the weight and trauma of 12+ years of audios stories. I think there is alot of scope and drama to be found in the upcoming time war audios (or any other medium which explores it), exploring why he doesn't fight even after all his losses (and likewise why even the War Doctor has his reservations), to me it adds to the insanity and mystery of the conflict, knowing even the Doctor after so many losses would have to be forced into taking part, it certainly speaks volumes about 8s idealism and misplaced sense of hope.
The War Doctor was eventually willing to further break the Promise by taking a calculated decision to sacrifice innocents to end the war, however as DOTD showed he in fact, redeemed the lost and broken Doctor before him as well, by not destroying Gallifrey and giving reason for those incarnations that followed to reclaim the name of the Doctor-obviously before Hurt's Dr was invented we'd all assumed it was 8 or 9 that 'pushed the button' (for me it was the latter) and there wasn't all that stuff about the promise and innocent children being pushed down out throats, however I was always a little confused/curious as to why Eccleston's Dr, seemingly reasonably fresh from the Time War was apparently fine with picking up the name and purpose of the Doctor straight away (more to the point...it would be a little odd to be slaughtering Daleks left right and center whilst calling yourself a 'Doctor') without 'earning it back' first...if Eccleston ever does Big Finish audio adventures, a pre-Rose 'Year Zero' arc for him would be very interesting to explore for similar reasons...Anyway as such two, not one doctors were redeemed by the events of Day Of The Doctor, NOTD clears up a few issues I personally had with the time war and Eights final sacrifice strikes home all the harder i.m.o, he may not have been willing to fight in the war, but he realized the bigger picture and was, in the end willing to sacrifice himself to become a man capable of ending the war, the War doctor gave up his morals without choice, the Eighth Doctor gave up his life twice over, it's hard to say which one took more courage.
When the Eighth Doctor died to protect his 'promise' during the Time War, finally broken but at peace knowing he had kept true to himself, the universe brought him back to life and threw it all back in his face almost mocking him, even in death he couldn't sacrifice himself to save another. It's ironically tragic and pretty damn cruel, The Doctor with such a love of life, who would rather die than fight, dying as a broken man then being brought back to life, confronted with the corpse of the woman he failed to save, being convinced that killing is necessary, then almost immediately 'dying' again to become a man capable of it in the space of a few minutes...it's alot to fit into such a short time, and as such NOTD does come across as a little rushed the more you watch it, but it remains a very powerful way to go, packed with symbolism. Eight dying and then being resurrected forces him to re-evaluate his role, and moral position on the time war, he can be the Doctor and run away from it again, or he can change and do what needs to be done. As I read it, he knew in his hearts that his current incarnation could never could sink that low, but his final action is choosing to regenerate into a incarnation capable of doing so. In a metaphorical way, the universe at this point was invalidating the whole of the Eighth Doctor's life.
So the Eighth Doctor dies both a failure and hero, sure it's not as epic as destroying Gallifrey would be, but having 8 'destroy' Gallifrey, only for his actions to be cancelled out again by the moment or (depending on your interpretation) being stopped from happening wouldn't have been worth hypothetically breaking the 8th Doctor into a bloodsoaked outcast i.m.o. In NOTD he dies as hero saving a stranger, then once more chooses to regenerate into a warrior foretold to bring an end to the conflict, as a doctor he's both redeemed and outcast by these actions twice over, for such wide eyed Doctor I think it remains very fitting his regeneration was heroic, but ultimately futile and downbeat, rather than bittersweet and hopeful like the War Doctors was, but I suppose that's an argument for another post...
The Eighth Doctor questions whether the regeneration will hurt, wanting to be in pain as he becomes the Warrior, horribly conflicted about what he's going to do as his next incarnation (something else noted on TV Tropes, ''The Doctor yells "Get out! GET OUT!" exactly like he did in "To the Death" and "Dark Eyes: The Great War" don't recall if that's accurate though), that's why the despairing line ''Physician heal thyself" hits so hard, it shows his terror about what will follow, a dispearing hope that things might return to normal in the future as well as him seeking redemption for the breaking of the promise by the incarnation that followed. The last act of hope of a desperate and dying man, it also acts as an apology of sorts (it's particularly ironic considering the fates of the companions he names) finally at his breaking point, he is directly harming "The Doctor" (both the person and 'promise' of the name) in order to become the warrior that will end the war, but as it's a quote from Christ (fitting the literary Byronic romantic that is Eight), it also brings to mind the idea of him passing on the burden to the next Doctor (it vaguely reminded me of Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade, like the Holy Grail it's a literal cup of life/death).
I'm partially inclined to say that the 8th Doctor 'Era' as it were, by virtue of being almost entirely explored in fan aimed ancillary material needed to end quietly, unsatisfying or surprisingly (NOTD manages all three to some extent), I'd argue the 8th Doctor for many is unfortunately more defined by his absence than stories - a character whose defining trait is that he was played by Paul McGann in a wig (and I don't mean that in a degroatory way...it's mostly down to NOTD introducing me to Big Finish that McGann became 'my' doctor!) an actor who spent most of the era not playing him officially on screen, except at the very beginning and end, for most his Dr is notable for appearing of a pair of regeneration stories and not much more recognizable as Doctor Who (well at least in terms of the TV show, the audio dramas, comics and novels though all great formats in their own way are probably out of reach or of limited interest to many casual viewers unfortunately) so having a short, downbeat internet minisode for his regeneration story seems oddly fitting from a out of universe perspective.
Looking back on NOTD 2 yrs later, 8 going out as a tragic hero essentially committing suicide due to a sense of misplaced moral idealism and chivalry in a simple, straight forward Doctor saves civilian story, still seems a surprisingly fitting ending i.m.o, especially considering it was thrown together at the last minute, evidently Moffat did his homework, or works better under pressure...NOTD may have started half way through a story, and as a 7 minute internet minisode it probably wasn't what many McGann fans were hoping for after such along screen absence for the 8th Doctor, but i.m.o it's a very symbolic, unflinchingly tragic ending to the 8th Doctor, though I understand why others may have felt differently and realise as it was basically my introduction to his Doctor I'm probably more biased than some...
At the very least, without a clear finale in sight for McGann's Dr in the wilderness years, NOTD now gives Big Finish a very clear ending to work towards as they explore the time war in greater depth over the course of future years (wheras with the War Doctor's he arrived fully formed at the end of his life, B.F have a interesting challenge of working backwards and building his Doctor's character up from the middle of his timeline...) and it leaves just enough questions and breathing room (why did the Sisterhood have those potions ready? How was Cass's ship damaged? Why was the Doctor keeping neutral for so long? And what happened to 8's other sonic screwdriver? etc) for a very interesting lead in/expanded final story for McGann whenever that happens to be... Anyone agree, disagree with my thoughts? Why do you think the Sisterhood was so prepared...and what was the 8th Doctor doing in the general area? In the 2 years since NOTD, with the completion of the Dark Eyes arc, and the release of Engines of War and the Only the Monsterous has your viewpoint on the War Doctor changed at all?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 7:50:24 GMT
That was really thoughtful and investigative. Well done. Why do you think the Sisterhood was so prepared...and what was the 8th Doctor doing in the general area?My personal theory is that the Sisterhood placed Cass's ship in jeopardy, so he would crash to the surface of Karn being so consumed by his grief that he'd choose not to regenerate. When they revived him (using techniques that were probably from when the Pythia ruled Gallifrey), they offered him the opportunity to shirk responsibility and pass it on to someone who was capable of carrying out a temporal offensive. Little did he know that once they gave him the goblet, they had power over him through, let's say his biodata, allowing them to use him as an instrument in the War; keeping the conflict as far away from Karn as possible while serving the Sisterhood's interests (possibly in the Manchurian Candidate sense). As to why he was there? I think he was lured. In a gambit worthy of the Bene Gesserit, it's not hard to speculate that Cass herself may have been part of the Sisterhood. In the 2 years since NOTD, with the completion of the Dark Eyes arc, and the release of Engines of War and the Only the Monsterous has your viewpoint on the War Doctor changed at all?Nope. Still find him to be an awkward fit that buries the Eighth Doctor's moment of catharsis. It's the same problem I have with Time's Champion versus The Brink of Death. In Champion, he accepts his capacity and perhaps inherent nature for evil, but quashes him with the revelation that it's his knowledge of how bad he could become that made him strive to do so much good. In Brink, he rejects the Valeyard outright in a manner that feels like he's blocking his ears and singing loudly. Similarly, the Eighth Doctor ultimately just gives up, rather than going too far and that to me seems so much like a resounding cheat that it beats Grace and Lee coming back to life in the telefilm for how much of an out of nowhere disappointment it is. I really, really don't like it and would have preferred the marvellous John Hurt to be an undefined future Doctor like the Valeyard, Curator or Merlin/Muldwych. Someone who is yet to come, rather than awkwardly shunted into the past. After two years, I really don't think my opinion is going to change. It's all just my personal opinion, but I think it was a bad idea. That and giving Nine amnesia rather than saying he destroyed his world. That one still gets me really, really mad for how much of a cheat it is. I'd write The Day of the Doctor out of existence if I could.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 21, 2016 8:25:37 GMT
The Sisterhood can see the future, so they were prepared because they knew the Doctor was coming.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jan 21, 2016 13:34:19 GMT
That was really thoughtful and investigative. Well done. Why do you think the Sisterhood was so prepared...and what was the 8th Doctor doing in the general area?My personal theory is that the Sisterhood placed Cass's ship in jeopardy, so he would crash to the surface of Karn being so consumed by his grief that he'd choose not to regenerate. When they revived him (using techniques that were probably from when the Pythia ruled Gallifrey), they offered him the opportunity to shirk responsibility and pass it on to someone who was capable of carrying out a temporal offensive. Little did he know that once they gave him the goblet, they had power over him through, let's say his biodata, allowing them to use him as an instrument in the War; keeping the conflict as far away from Karn as possible while serving the Sisterhood's interests (possibly in the Manchurian Candidate sense). As to why he was there? I think he was lured. In a gambit worthy of the Bene Gesserit, it's not hard to speculate that Cass herself may have been part of the Sisterhood. In the 2 years since NOTD, with the completion of the Dark Eyes arc, and the release of Engines of War and the Only the Monsterous has your viewpoint on the War Doctor changed at all?Nope. Still find him to be an awkward fit that buries the Eighth Doctor's moment of catharsis. It's the same problem I have with Time's Champion versus The Brink of Death. In Champion, he accepts his capacity and perhaps inherent nature for evil, but quashes him with the revelation that it's his knowledge of how bad he could become that made him strive to do so much good. In Brink, he rejects the Valeyard outright in a manner that feels like he's blocking his ears and singing loudly. Similarly, the Eighth Doctor ultimately just gives up, rather than going too far and that to me seems so much like a resounding cheat that it beats Grace and Lee coming back to life in the telefilm for how much of an out of nowhere disappointment it is. I really, really don't like it and would have preferred the marvellous John Hurt to be an undefined future Doctor like the Valeyard, Curator or Merlin/Muldwych. Someone who is yet to come, rather than awkwardly shunted into the past. After two years, I really don't think my opinion is going to change. It's all just my personal opinion, but I think it was a bad idea. That and giving Nine amnesia rather than saying he destroyed his world. That one still gets me really, really mad for how much of a cheat it is. I'd write The Day of the Doctor out of existence if I could. Firstly, thanks! That's a very good (and very dark!) theory and it certainly makes sense with what we know about The Sisterhood, but I think there's another interpretation, what if the Elxir didn't actually do anything? The War Doctor does what is necessary and certainly seems to be a more morose, grimmer figure than 8, but even so he still perceives himself as a monster (I think a true warrior would be adamant he was in the right most of the time) and hesitates to use weaponry in Engines of War (though that could simply be his age/weariness of the conflict after so long taking effect). It's clear from Night of the Doctor that 8 has tried to remain neural in the Time War and that he has actively tried to avoid direct action in the conflict, acting as somethign like a firefighter, travelling around to help others in need. So what if the Sisterhood, in an attempt to save themselves from the war which 'threatens all reality' and knowing their only hope is to force the Doctor into direct involvement in the war, had done nothing more than provide "The Good Man" with the excuse he needs, the mask of a "War Doctor", so that he might take a more active role in ending the war, his death in the crash be a luck event to cover the excuse of regenerating him. So...could the regeneration, we watched in NOTD be nothing more than a conveinent lie the Doctor tells himself to believe? Is the Doctor actually complicit in the lie? (perhaps another reason for 10 and 11 to hate him, maybe he was literally the Doctor all along...) Is the mask of a Warrior nothing more than an excuse so he can free himself from the promise of "The Doctor" also allowing himself to bury the morals of being a "The Good Man" for long enough to get the blood on his hands necessary to end the conflict... As for the War Doctor, my (again, quite lengthy!) thoughts on why I don't think McGann would have been suitable for the role (at least as written in DOTD) and a few musings on the case for and against the creation of The War Doctor. As I said above I was properly introduced to McGann's Doctor via NOTD, and although he has become 'my' doctor I'll admit I have a biased point of view on things. Anyway, although he's clearly a great actor, and would have probably pulled the role of the War Doctor off if he had got the chance, I always struggled to see the 8th Doctor fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, even more so after getting to know him better in the audios/novels, there are certainly arguments for using 8 in the part, but personally I think Moffat had very good reasons for doing things the way he did, and i.m.o the ending he got in NOTD seems much more in character. As I understand it (from my limited knowledge of Mcoy's Dr) at the end of his Seventh incarnation, the Doctor grew tired of manipulation and endlessly playing 'a game of chess' with his enemies, and gradually grew into a more reserved contemplative man, sensing the oncoming darkness in his future, he spent his final years mostly alone, fixing mistakes and giving his next incarnation a clean slate fearing he wouldn't be up to task, so in some ways you can argue the 7th Doctor essentially rejected becoming a warrior or manipulator and purposely regenerated into the healer and romantic explorer he always was at heart(s), the 8th Doctor being a reaction to 7's persona, and something of a new start for the Doctor. Some Classic Who fans weren't overly enthusiastic about the barrier between the old show and the continuation being completely broken down, the time war is a construct of the New Series, and personally I'm not entirely sure throwing the Classic Doctors in would suit the characters very well,McGann though from between the eras is counted as a 'classic' doctor by the BBC, and wouldn't necessarily fit into Day Of The Doctor's script, as it was a very New Who driven storyline, moreover McGann's Doctor as a more user friendly romantic, was something of a prototype for Tennant and Smith's Doctors so wouldn't have provided the sort of contrast Moffat was after in the script i.m.o. Although having 8 destroy Gallifrey, or coming to terms with his actions after being prevented from doing so would have been a powerful redemptive arc for McGann (and obviously give him some much needed screen time, almost in a meta way, the half human doctor and star of a one of TV pilot be redeemed with the help of the Doctors of The New Series) I'm not convinced it was really merited by his storylines in the audios/book for several reasons, and B.F can do that to much greater effect in the audios anyway. Although from memory in the Dark Eyes bonus features, McGann seemed excited to play a more tougher, darker doctor, I think that was more down to a desire to explore the character in as many different ways as possible rather than a desire to play a grimdark warrior (I've read he considered quitting during the Divergent Universe arc, becoming bored with the direction of the character and storylines) Paul McGann himself has cast doubt on his doctor fighting in the time war: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5LVrTqp25o''Well I think, one of the nice things about Night Of The Doctor was playing that reluctance, playing that dilemma...I mean he looked like he'd had a fight...I kinda think it was the decent compromise...I'd rather play that I think because I'm not really...I don't know...I'm not really a tough guy, I don't do tough guys so well, I do mixed morality a bit better...'' Of course you could argue that the War Doctor wasn't quite the tough guy some of us thought he was anyway, but my point stands, McGann just seemed happy to be involved in any way, and it seems fitting he reprised the role in a way very similar to how his doctor first acted. As far as I can tell he was open to the idea and probably would have played the role if asked, but McGann has always seemed more drawn to the Doctor's inner psyche and heroism i.m.o, keen to explore as many new areas of the Doctor as possible, as he says in the interview, he doesn't think he could pull off tough guys very well (the Eigtht Doctor, though far from a pacifist isn't what I'd call tough). At the very least I think giving McGann an on screen regeneration and end point might work in BF's favour, by giving them a definite end point it means McGann is no longer just the wilderness years Doctor with no ending in sight. From his very first moments the 8th Doctor proved himself as a very fallible doctor, a moral idealist and impulsive romantic, this is the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the R-101, installs a buttefly sanctuary in the tardis and tried to rescue the Master from death even after he had murdered his companions, hardly the mark of detached warrior. The 8th Doctor is hardly a coward, but even when forced to fight the 8th Doctor comes across as a man who'd rather take any other option i.m.o, chastising himself and others for using violence voluntarily, he'd rather point a gun at himself than others. McGann can do snark and rage brilliantly, but even so I could never personally buy the idea of him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, every time he has fought the Daleks its been on a small scale with a very good reason or involving a personal grudge, which is very different to engaging in full scale war or genocide. I think his frequently shown disgust of time lord bureaucracy, and affinity for finding the joy and wonder in any situation paint him as rather more suited to a man trying to end the war from the outskirts than waging it at the front, the very fact that's he's so full of passion and anger in times of hardship make him less of a candidate, I don't think he'd have the outward detachment necessary. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well. He'd rather run. Look at the fourth doctor running away from the Presidency of The Timelords, the second fleeing the timelords after the war games or the tenth running away from the Shadow Proclamation saying the Doctor will lead them to war. Even the seventh doctor, although he is manipulative, is not outright war like, and Eight for the most part certainly isn't, as I said in my earlier post This exchange from one the audios sums up his attitude wonderfully: The Doctor: "This is how evil starts. With the belief that the ends justify the means. But once you start down that road, there's no turning back. What if you can save five million lives but you have to let ten people die? Or a hundred? Or a hundred thousand? Where do you stop?" Lucie Miller: "But you did. You did stop." Doctor: "I did. But by then I ended up traveling alone. Because I couldn't trust myself with anyone's life. Not after..." Lucie: "Not after? Not saying. OK. Then what made you change from being a lonely bean counter to companionable time traveler?" Doctor: "A new body. A clean slate, a fresh start. From that day I knew I never would countenance the death of a single living being. That's why I no longer travel alone. " Lucie: "Why?" Doctor: "So I could never forget how precious a single life is." I find it much easier to picture McGann's Doc trying to safe innocents from the sidelines and limit the damage through peaceful means rather than slaughtering daleks left right and center, I don't think his doctor would have be willing to work with the timelords that closely, nor throw himself into the fire not unless there was any other option, and I can't help but respect the 8th Doctor, right up to his death he refused to break his morals, and remained 'The Good Man' through a sense of misplaced honour. Many point to Dark Eyes audios as evidence for a darker, more callous 8th doctor, and whilst its true the 8th Doctor comes to a point where he actually contemplates wiping out the Daleks in this series (which Doctor hasn't?), the Dark Eyes arc even from the start was more about the Doctor searching for hope and redemption i.m.o, hope that the universe didn't just create evil monsters like the Daleks or traitorous timelords like the Master, and proving to himself that he could and would save people if given the choice. Dark Eyes 1 starts with the Doctor absolutely raging with anger and grief (after the loss of several companions to the Daleks), pushing him to the very brink of his moral edge, but if even at his lowest the Eigtht Doctor still consciously rejects the path that leads to open warfare, I don't think anything would really break him into a Warrior, his rage and anger is all the more striking in these audios, because it is so opposed to his usual nature, come Doom Coaltion he's reasonably chirpy and cheerful once more. That said, there's certainly an argument to be made that his Big Finish stories (and the books) do show a gradual journey from the scatterbrained, even childish, romantic wanderer he was in 1996 to something of a exhausted, emotionally broken old man on the brink of a very tragic fate, so you could argue Big Finish were moving McGann in a darker direction (if very slowly) anyway, and that destroying Gallifrey at the climax of a terrible war wouldn't be too much of a stretch as a believable way to end such an arc, but i.m.o the evidence does more to mark his Doctor as a man who would never do such a thing than it does to support it-though I understand the very notion of a 'lover' being forced to fight is a very powerful arc. The Dark Eyes boxsets i.m.o proved he wasn't a man who would be able to sacrifice even a few innocents lives for the needs of the many, or willingly walk down the road to double genocide, and how given the choice, he'd always strive for peace and honor if deep down, he still had hope things could change, as he says to the Master, 'I will not join you in this insane war across the timelines!'. There's a difference between character development and outright character rewriting, McGann's Doctor was at his hearts never a true warrior and would always find his way back to the 'light' and, as such wouldn't have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it-the War Doctor was set up and hyped as a massive contrast to 10 and 11, and even though he ended up being a red herring of sorts, I think breaking 8 down into a warrior, only to have the climax of the storyline (Gallifrey being destroyed) being averted wouldn't have rendered much of the development pretty pointless. Although Dark Eyes does reinforce the idea of McGann becoming darker, to me the 8th Doctor's darker aspects have always been more of a reaction to the writers experimenting with and testing his impulsive nature and high moral idealism, rather than any natural inward darkness in the Eigtht Doctor. Even in his darkest moments, his arc in the audios was more concerned with testing his Doctor, then pulling him back from his snapping point, rather than breaking him completely i.m.o. Of course there's no way of knowing how much the more recent boxsets were rewritten in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, but assuming at the time Big Finish wanted to stretch the gap between Dark Eyes and The Time War as wide as possible, they would be fighting a battle with listeners, who would naturally want to hear the time war as soon as possible, but once you break the doctor there's no going back, knowing that no matter what 8 becomes war the 8th Doctor would end up as a burnt out but brutal warrior, would i.m.o derail his gradual character arc and limit how far Big Finish could take the character, before things became very very depressing and repetitive, there was no guarantee their license would have been expanded to New Who, and I with Hurt's Doc now appearing in audios, I think the buildup to the time war won't be as rushed as it could have been. But let's assume McGann been cast as The War Doctor, Big Finish have stated many times before they are always keen to stretch and explore the lifespan of The Eighth Doctor as much as possible, using McGann as The Doctor who fought in the war for centuries could have pigeonholed how far they could experiment with the character, at the time of the 50th Anniversary, they had no idea if their license would be renewed or extended to cover New Who properties, and there's no guarantee McGann would have been happy exploring such a different version of his Doctor. With the 8th Doctor in particular there's a much stronger case for following his story chronologically, and things would only get cyclical and stale if you were always fighting the temptation to show the build up to the war or show a true Doctor Gone Dark, it's hard to believe a 'time war' would have started overnight or linearly, now BF have a largely outcast 'War Doctor' to write for, they can keep some of the time war mysterious, and can still tell the 8th Doctor's involvement in great detail, 8 and War operate very differently as Doctors, so there's room for a wider variety of Time War era stories. For many I think one of the attractions of using McGann as the War Doctor was the idea of his untapped potential, and the arc of a 'lover' being forced to become a fighter, which is a fair enough point of view, and certainly a interesting arc from a dramatic angle. For a doctor that started out questioning himself 'WHO AM I!' and expressed such a clear love of the universe, having his final actions lead to genocide and the destruction of his homeworld would have a tragically ironic ending, and given McGann some amazing material to work with as his soul was crushed by the weight of an endless war. However it's clear that The War Doctor wasn't quite the boogeyman some fans were lead to believe, and one of Moffat's points with Hurt's Doctor was to prove, no matter how Dark the character went, he was at heart still the Doctor. Therefore, I think Moffat (who has a clearly defined interpretation of the 8th Doctor's character) would have been even less inclined to make the 8th Doctor as dark as some fans wanted, and for me it would be a little too metatextual and a bit of a slap in the face to use the 8th Doctor in the timewar, his doctor dosen't need redeeming i.m.o. Personally I don't think it's an arc that is really backed up with McGann's work in the audios, I'd feel very cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh, and personally I don't find it as fulfilling or interesting from a dramatic point of view, it just seems predictable, The 8th Doctor has already been pushed to the brink with so much heartbreak, tipping him even further over the edge just seemed a bit...cynical, The very fact that it was revealed Gallifrey was never destroyed, although giving the Doctor a sense of retribution and a bittersweet ending would i.m.o render the theoritcal changes to his Doctor a little pointless. And vaing become a fan of the BBC 8th Doctors novels (which will hopefully be adapted by Big Finish one day...)McGann being the time war Doctor sits somewhat uneasily with me...what are the chances the same Doctor who deliberately didn't destroy Gallifrey permanently, to stop a war from starting, would contemplate destroying it completely after deliberately fighting in an even bigger war voluntarily?, it would be both retreading and cancelling out old ground for the 8th Doctor. Having come to know the 8th Doctor I'd have found it a massive kick in the teeth if they broke down McGann's heroic wanderer into a blood soaked outcast completely devoid of hope, only to have the destruction of Gallifrey reversed anyway-at least John Hurt's Doctor fought (largely) voluntarily and with purpose from the start, and adds a very different kinda of Doctor to the roster. I'm personally of the opinion some fans wanted McGann as the War Doctor because they didn't really know him and wanted to see more of the mystery explored, not because it was supported by the source material or his Doctors nature. Now thanks to Moffat's gamble, we have two doctors in the war-one a Doctor trying his utmost not to become a warrior, only to be pushed by circumstance into one a warrior gradually becoming a doctor again, it's a fascinating cycle with huge potential and with the forthcoming Time War Audios for each Doctor presumably running in parallel there's going to be some very interesting comparisons to explore Personally I loved the idea of an outcast, self loathing 'War' Doctor, and for a variety of in universe and practical reasons. Although a peice of retroactive continuity (though since we never got confirmation whether it was 8 or 9 who fought in the time war, it doesn't actually change that much) I think it makes more canonical sense than using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the role (and frankly a more interesting story), and gave us a brilliant new Doctor in Hurt, though I appreciate their are issues and concerns that some had about the character, and it does detract from the Doctor's character arc in some respects.
The War Doctor raises some interesting dilemmas and parallels with real conflicts. Soldiers are genuine people too, doing a job they are trained to do (not always voluntarily), rarely genuinely violent, defending their freedom and homes, having to make very tough decisions in the process, fighting an enemy who are genuine people with similar obligations and logic for fighting. So using that reasoning, taking the Doctor out of that dilemna by putting in a newly created 'sort-of-but-not-quite Doctor' in his place (moreover one we first see at the very end of his life when he isn't going to be the warrior of his prime ) arguably cheapens some of the drama, and allows the Doctor to excuse his actions because he temporarily went by a different name (which is either a good or bad thing depending on how you view the character as a children's hero), even if he later excepts those actions. On the other hand Doctor Who is set in a heightened sci-fi environment, the Doctor isn't a human hero, and in The Time War he wasn't fighting a human enemy, so should be held to different reasoning i.m.o.
Out of universe, it's primarily a family show that can't or doesn't want to explore such dark, morally grey themes to the extent they deserve, and first and foremost has to think of the casual viewer (even if this was a 50th Anniversary episode), and I'm not completely convinced McGann would appeal to the casual viewer, I'd never seen or heard anything about the 8th Doctor until NOTD, but the notion of a hidden 'war doctor' certainly got me interested.
A lot of people wrote off Colin Baker's more abrasive Doctor after he strangled his companion (despite his Doctor mellowing in the audios, even on the TV series to an extent), Tom Baker's more morose fourth Doctor in his final years does seem somewhat at odds with with his earlier self, Tennant went fairly dark and arrogant in his last few specials (a stark contrast to his cheery eyed ladies man take on the character, though the 'time lord victorious' thing was quickly reversed) even Capaldi alienated a few viewers with his colder more abrasive 12th Doctor.
The difference being all these Doctors, had character progression and change during their tenures on screen, but not to the extent that it was a complete surprise or distraction. McGann had never got that character progression on screen (frankly I'd feel cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh) and remains for most a largely unknown doctor, if audiences had seen his Doctor break and grow darker over a length period or large number of storylines such a change would probably be easier to understand (even if it's still more of a rewrite than character progression) but to so such a sudden change of character, have his Doctor become a warrior, and handwave it away with a few lines of dialogue could be seen as lazy or confusing by casual viewers. The popular image of McGann's Doctor among those of the general public who actually remember or like the TV Movie is the easily distracted romantic charmer with with the frock coat, long hair and gothic tardis interior, (which is fair enough considering the limited availability/extra cost of the expanded universe materials for his Doctor), arguably less of a proper doctor , more a man who appeared in an episode once.
But McGann hated that wig and would probably stipulate in his contract that he didn't have to wear it if he returned, the tardis set from 1996 no longer exists and complicated rights issues would nix any major references to his companions Grace and Chang from the TV Movie. You could explain the change in character, as well explaining how his Doctor got to this point with vague references to the Big Finish continuity (or even the BBC Books/Comics, weirdly the BBC books, though out of print have a stronger case to be 'canon' as they were produced 'in house'...though with a explicitly and very different destruction of Gallifrey and a another timewar... it would be very confusing figuring out what to reference). However the BBC charter rules that a programme must be able to be understood by the public using only broadcast material produced by the BBC (Night of the Doctor was released under different circumstances, first broadcast on the BBC Iplayer and Red Button, which is probably why it got away with name dropping some of his Big Finish companions)-it's unfair on the audience to have to purchase additional material produced by another company to understand key plot points or character backgrounds.
I doubt McGann would have been happy with a storyline that either pigeonholed or largely ignored the substantial work he had put into the audios over the years, and if McGann had been the war Doctor, it would be both retreading slightly similar events and cancelling out large proportions of his backstory as established by the very same expanded universe materials that are largely responsible for the fanbase his Doctor has. Such expanded universe materials are generally only considered partially canon by many viewers, and often viewed as intrusive or boring to many ordinary viewers anyway...so if you are going to be ignoring the legacy and essentially creating a brand new doctor from the ground up,...why not just go the whole hog and do it for real?
Even assuming you could persuade McGann's Doctor to once again don the wig, and bring back all the elements of his Doctor from 1996 (alot of effort from 1996) this could have interfered with Big Finish continuity (having already shown a major costume change in the Dark Eyes audios) and majorly p*ss off the fans who had spent much money and time following the audios, it's a loose-loose situation.Even now, to be frank, I'm not completely convinced McGann's return would create the same excitement for the general public as Hurt's casting did. McGann's Doctor only really appealed to hardcore fans or those who like the idea of his mystery, I'd argue the public memory of his doctor isn't detailed, him kissing Grace, a motorbike chase , 'Who AM I???' 'These shoes, they fit perfectly!', Eric Robert's hammy Master and San Francisco on New Year's Eve, it's not much of a legacy, but it's enough for many people to pass judgement, and little enough for many others to be ignorant of or ignore, a brand new Doctor with a clearly defined purpose put everyone on the same page and gave Moffat greater say in how to write his character traits.
For most, McGann's Doctor is probably, and sadly more defined by his absence and the failure of the TV Movie to lead to a series than his actual performance and take on the Doctor. Putting his regeneration in a standalone internet special made alot of sense from a business point of view i.m.o, diehard fans would happily turn to YouTube to see Eight's regeneration, new viewers would be intrigued or confused, but they are sitting at a computer so could just look at the Wiki entry for him, it built hype for the actual special and kept everyone talking about McGann for a week afterwards, with the huge popularity of Smith and Tennant to compete againist, I wonder if McGann's Dr could have been lost in the background a bit had he played the role.
Whilst McGann's Doctor has certainly become much more popular in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, that's still a short, niche and largely unseen internet short that builds on, and pays tribute to his character arc and persona in the audios, DOTD would have less freedom and room to do so, with the time war Doctor acting largely as a plot point and playing second fiddle to two other, immensely popular Doctors, Hurt's Doc offered something totally new for everyone
At the time Moffat had no way of knowing if McGann's Doctor would provoke a popular reaction in the casual audiences, he may not have even been available for filming, and although he's a excellent Actor and very likable Doctor, he had only played the role once before on screen, some 17 years before, so there was precious little for Moffat to judge his Doctor on, an internet Short which focused on McGann and gave him a simple, but tragic storyline was probably easier for both Moffat and McGann to work with.
McGann's Doctor was, and generally is a polar opposite to Eccleston's, and in many ways remains a prototype for Tennant and Smith's more romantic, outwardly open Doctors, a naturally charming and at heart(s) youthful optimist, his Doctor wouldn't necessarily provide the contrast or gravitas Moffat was after in the script, to accommodate McGann he would have to rewrite the script for Eight, time which he didn't have.
Even supposing Moffat went down the route of making McGann's Doctor much wearier and darker, the character and history of the 8th Doctor is already long established in expanded media, with a small but devoted following, if he was going to go to the bother of bringing him back largely to please these fans, ignoring what's gone before and the work McGann had already put into the franchise wouldn't sit very well with the fanbase. There's nearly seventeen years worth of history to reference, summarize and provide a adequate conclusion to (with the BBC charter and copyright laws to work around), with everyone's own version of McGann's ending playing in their heads already, it's a hell of alot of pressure to live up to, and there wouldn't necessarily be time to close his story in a dramatic enough way, DOTD was supposed to push the story forward, unfortunately McGann's Doctor isn't really known enough to merit a huge part in that i.m.o.
On the other hand, although I always had my doubts Eccleston would have worked in the 50th in the role, Moffat's original idea about bringing Nine back as the War Doctor would have probably been easier to believe for alot of viewers. Eccleston's Doc was a believable tough guy, angry, haunted and snarky (even if he claims to be something of a coward), it's easy to see how he would have slotted into the DOTD script. 'The Ninth Doctor returns' has a more instant pull i.m.o because there's a vivid recent(ish) image of Eccleston's Doctor as a character in the public memory, he continues to be a popular doctor with a whole series and character arc to work with (and huge numbers wishing for his return), RTD wrote his Doctor with the vague idea that he had ended, and probably fought in The Time War ( as I understand it the 8th Doctor was at one point intended to regenerate in the Comic arc 'The Flood' prior to the time war actually starting) and recently confirmed that Rose was never intended to be his first adventure, so there was certainly room for expansion.
That said, Nine had a fantastic completed arc in Series 1, seeing a story set before that (or one that potentially undermines his Doctor's trauma) wouldn't necessarily work with this arc, using The Ninth Doctor would have probably made the story feel too celebratory of New Who with only the three new Doctors being involved in major roles, and if Moffat had his doubts about Eccleston's Doctor being responsible from the beginning it's hard to say why you'd want him writing 8 in, as I said above at least Eccleston's Doc has an on screen legacy to build on.
Casting Hurt as a hidden 'war' doctor though retroactive continuity, was a very useful shortcut for Moffat and adds alot to the mythos of Who i.m.o. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well, and we've never seen him fight in a conflict of this scale before as viewers, never a coward but a man who'd rather run away from or negotiate than fight in a full scale war, even in his Seventh life he was more of a scheming chess player than a bloodthirsty grunt, as such an outcast 'War Doctor' who casts away the name adds to the mystery of the conflict and allows much more scope and freedom for story-lines. The Time War is meant to be an unimaginably huge conflict, taking place off screen between Classic and New Who, as such it feels sorta right it has its own Doctor, personally as a viewer I find it easier to sympathize with a Warrior who fights without choice, rather than a Doctor throwing away his morals and fighting voluntarily.
Using John Hurt (who is frankly, an even better actor than McGann) as a grizzled veteran doctor created several shortcuts, firstly-'Oh so this is the guy he fought the time war, gotcha I don't need to see anything else to know who he is and wouldn't feel confused upon finding out he has hundreds of non televised stories', casting an older actor as the third Doctor in the trio acts as something of a cypher for the classic doctors who couldn't fit into the episode, with the older but younger War Doctor chastising his younger successors it's a neat callback to the Three Doctors, in Moffat's script there was precious little time and space for the Classic Doctors, and Hurt's elderly doctor acts as a cypher for them all, a metaphor for the off-screen years of the franchise and the Classic Doctors passing judgement on the New. Creating the War Doctor to replace Eccleston was a lesser rewrite from a character point of view than using McGann would be, and frankly I just think it's a more interesting story.
Revealing that the Doctor had a hidden incarnation that we never knew about, and one he himself had outcast, instead of simply treading the expected ground that Eight or Nine went dark and did the deed surprised everyone and adds alot of mystery to the Doctors actions in the war, and it's a more exciting story from a marketing point of view. A secret Doctor is ripe for exploration (even if you hate the concept, a whole new doctor is alot of fun to play around with from a writers point of view), and it presented the fascinating opportunity for a rigorous study of what defines "the Doctor.", in a way no normal doctor could, without the baggage of working with a previously defined character history.
How far could he go as a 'good man'?; at what point does he stop being "the Doctor"? Do his actions rather than his name mark him as or not as the doctor? Does he deserve being outcast? And just how far was he willing to go in the time war?
And then we get the exploration on the "promise" and deeper meaning behind the Doctor's name, very interesting stuff in Hurt's hands.
The War Doctor also had the additional benefit of bumping up the regeneration limit (what better time to finally deal with the limit than in the 50th anniversary year?) helped build the hype for Smith's imminent regeneration and the war on Trenzalore (quite tragic really-he finally comes to terms with his past as the War Doctor and saves gallifrey only to be plunged soon afterwards into another war...) which in turn started Capaldi off completely fresh - Gallifrey is saved, the silence/trenazlore arcs are complete and he has a new mission, and plenty of new lives to explore the galaxy with once more.
I also like that it shifts the blame of the time war onto an outcast Doctor who has to earn the name once more (in universe I always found the idea that he kept the name doctor in the midst of a huge war a little weird) and there's more drama and subversion working following the war doctor as he starts out as more of a 'bad guy' and gradually becomes more of a doctor as time passes rather than 8 or 9 becoming dark, it's rather more interesting from a dramatic point of view, starting out with a man who isn't the Doctor, slowly becoming more of the man once more when exposed to warfare, and looking at the cliches of the war genre through the opposite perspective. This keeps the 'proper' doctors even more of a hero figure for children, and gives all new viewers one more mystery to explore and think about when they reach the 50th Anniversary episode.
Sure, you could argue that Moffat's basic reasoning for the war doctor (he couldn't imagine McGann pressing the button) was flawed, as we get to know him in a story where he's prevented (or overwrited depending on how you interpret the episode) from having to destroy Gallifrey in the first place rendering much of his purpose apparently pointless, however this also proves that there was an equally flawed reasoning for using McGann in Day Of The Doctor i.m.o...what would be the point in breaking the 8th Doctor into that mindset if he was prevented for destroying Gallifrey in the first place/or played a major part in its salvation? Even the War Doctor hesitates and is saved from doing so, so it's clear if Moffat didn't want to show the 'Warrior' doing the deed, he'd be even less likely to show 8's 'proper dotor' doing so.
Admittedly The Doctor has never denied his actions in the war, nor denied the blood on his hands as a consequence , so in the literal sense the War Doctor wasn't a hidden incarnation in a way that really mattered, we'd always known that A Doctor had fought in the war, and we'd known since 'Dalek' that it was him that had 'destroyed' Gallifrey, so I can understand why the revelation about The War Doctor was for some a disappointment, the hype didn't necessarily match what we saw onscreen, but there's a limit to how dark the BBC could take things.
And yes, all other reasoning aside the gravitas of having McGann, one of the least likely Doctors to 'push the button' do it and destroy Gallifrey would have been amazing to see, he's a strong enough actor, and such a compelling Doctor that he would have nailed the role had it been written with him in mind i.m.o. But on the other hand seeing the Eigtht Doctors love of the universe and ultimately futile idealism lead to his downfall, and his willingness to lay down his life to save a stranger backfire and force him into finally throwing away the morals of his current regeneration was equally memorable and surprising, and more in keeping with the general tone of his Doctor i.m.o.
You could certainly argue turning 8 into a warrior would have been merited or possibly expected by some as a character progression, considering the deaths of five of his companions at the hands of the daleks in the audios, the 8th Doctor has more reason than most to hold a grudge, and there would be some excellent drama hearing 8 become so angry and vengeful, but 8th Doctor has never really operated like that, he lacks the detachment and would be above holding petty grudges. One of Moffat's key points with the war Doctor, was that he was a burnt out warrior wishing he was the Doctor once more, he wasn't really the source of darkness everyone wanted, making McGann some sort of outcast grimdark killer would seem even more out of place.
Even if you aren't attached to Eight as a Doctor, surely you care about having the final choices of such a larger than life Doctor make sense? This is the man who tried to save The Master from death in the TV Movie even after he 'killed' Grace and tried to do the same to him, a doctor who'd rather point a gun at his own head than threaten others, carries around spare food in his pockes for strangers, the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the wreck of the R101, and the Doctor who risked his life to save Davros from the Nightmare Child even after all his losses againist the Daleks. You could argue many, if not all of the Doctors would have probably done something similar, but my point stands, Eight was generally a moral idealist and a romantic, he'd rather negotiate or run than fight, a man certainly not short of courage but also one who offered second chances when he didn't have to, and lived very much in the moment, I just don't believe his Doctor was detatched enough to become a warrior.
Other problems I had in turning McGann into the War Doctor are simply pragmatic, as we see in Day Of The Doctor its the final day of the War, all the implied rage and fire of the War Doctors early years (given that he's by engineered especially to fight by the Sisterhood, I'm guessing he'd have more fire and rage than an already rather old and worn down 8th doctor could ever have when the time war breaks out) was long gone in Moffat's script, casual audiences wouldn't have any idea as to how McGann's romatic scatterbrained adventurer had become this broken and battle hardened, its hardly fair to go and say to them 'Go and listen to several decades of audios, which are years away from catching up to this point anyway to get the implied context, by the way due to the BBC charter we can't really refer to the audios directly in the show anyway' to get them caught up with the Doctor's change in temperament. McGann's Doctor was so full of life and energy, it's very hard for me personally to picture him so cold and broken.
We saw the Doctors soul being saved by the moment, just a different Doctor, one perhaps even more tragically deserving of it, The War Doctor had spent his entire lifespan fighting an endless war, knowing on this final day as he chooses to detonate the moment it was all utterly pointless, only to be saved the actions of his successors, from a personal point of view I find it easier to 'get with' the redemption of a Warrior who in his words 'did it without choice' yet gradually walks back along the path to being the Doctor (I know some complained that in DOTD The War Doctor wasn't too bloodthirsty, merely exhausted, that was the point I think, John Hurt in DOTD wasn't the boogeyman 10 and 11's memories had made him out to be) rather than the actions of a the 8th Doctor who did it willingly.
Although I'm generally of the opinion the Time War should remain largely untold, but the War Doctor certainly adds to the mystery, interest and tragedy of the conflict for me, and I find the idea of a warrior walking along a path back to being the Doctor, rather than a Doctor being broken into a warrior more true to the character and series tone and rather more interesting from a character stand point. The War Doctor acts as an interesting parallel to many of 8s key character traits, and now gives us two time war Doctor with very different goals and viewpoints of the conflict.
That said I do understand your point about 8 now lacking a sense of catharsis, almost all the other Doctors went out heroically, in a way fundamentally of their choosing, 8 dies being forced by circumstance, and ultimately never finds a true final purpose in hid incarnation, but I'd argue in a way, that was more tragic, and oddly fitting for McGann's wilderness year Dr.
Personally I thought John Hurt gave a magnificent performance as the War Doctor, making the most of his limited screentime, I enjoyed his/Moffat's interpretation of the character very much and I'm hopeful we'll see more and more of his doctor in the expanded media as the years pass, McGann would have undoubtedly done great things in the part, but honestly I think things worked out for the better, though I understand why you feel differently.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2016 14:06:57 GMT
That was really thoughtful and investigative. Well done. Why do you think the Sisterhood was so prepared...and what was the 8th Doctor doing in the general area?My personal theory is that the Sisterhood placed Cass's ship in jeopardy, so he would crash to the surface of Karn being so consumed by his grief that he'd choose not to regenerate. When they revived him (using techniques that were probably from when the Pythia ruled Gallifrey), they offered him the opportunity to shirk responsibility and pass it on to someone who was capable of carrying out a temporal offensive. Little did he know that once they gave him the goblet, they had power over him through, let's say his biodata, allowing them to use him as an instrument in the War; keeping the conflict as far away from Karn as possible while serving the Sisterhood's interests (possibly in the Manchurian Candidate sense). As to why he was there? I think he was lured. In a gambit worthy of the Bene Gesserit, it's not hard to speculate that Cass herself may have been part of the Sisterhood. In the 2 years since NOTD, with the completion of the Dark Eyes arc, and the release of Engines of War and the Only the Monsterous has your viewpoint on the War Doctor changed at all?Nope. Still find him to be an awkward fit that buries the Eighth Doctor's moment of catharsis. It's the same problem I have with Time's Champion versus The Brink of Death. In Champion, he accepts his capacity and perhaps inherent nature for evil, but quashes him with the revelation that it's his knowledge of how bad he could become that made him strive to do so much good. In Brink, he rejects the Valeyard outright in a manner that feels like he's blocking his ears and singing loudly. Similarly, the Eighth Doctor ultimately just gives up, rather than going too far and that to me seems so much like a resounding cheat that it beats Grace and Lee coming back to life in the telefilm for how much of an out of nowhere disappointment it is. I really, really don't like it and would have preferred the marvellous John Hurt to be an undefined future Doctor like the Valeyard, Curator or Merlin/Muldwych. Someone who is yet to come, rather than awkwardly shunted into the past. After two years, I really don't think my opinion is going to change. It's all just my personal opinion, but I think it was a bad idea. That and giving Nine amnesia rather than saying he destroyed his world. That one still gets me really, really mad for how much of a cheat it is. I'd write The Day of the Doctor out of existence if I could. Firstly, thanks! That's a very good (and very dark!) theory and it certainly makes sense with what we know about The Sisterhood, but I think there's another interpretation, what if the Elxir didn't actually do anything? The War Doctor does what is necessary and certainly seems to be a more morose, grimmer figure than 8, but even so he still perceives himself as a monster (I think a true warrior would be adamant he was in the right most of the time) and hesitates to use weaponry in Engines of War (though that could simply be his age/weariness of the conflict after so long taking effect). It's clear from Night of the Doctor that 8 has tried to remain neural in the Time War and that he has actively tried to avoid direct action in the conflict, acting as somethign like a firefighter, travelling around to help others in need. So what if the Sisterhood, in an attempt to save themselves from the war which 'threatens all reality' and knowing their only hope is to force the Doctor into direct involvement in the war, had done nothing more than provide "The Good Man" with the excuse he needs, the mask of a "War Doctor", so that he might take a more active role in ending the war, his death in the crash be a luck event to cover the excuse of regenerating him. So...could the regeneration, we watched in NOTD be nothing more than a conveinent lie the Doctor tells himself to believe? Is the Doctor actually complicit in the lie? (perhaps another reason for 10 and 11 to hate him, maybe he was literally the Doctor all along...) Is the mask of a Warrior nothing more than an excuse so he can free himself from the promise of "The Doctor" also allowing himself to bury the morals of being a "The Good Man" for long enough to get the blood on his hands necessary to end the conflict... As for the War Doctor, my (again, quite lengthy!) thoughts on why I don't think McGann would have been suitable for the role (at least as written in DOTD) and a few musings on the case for and against the creation of The War Doctor. As I said above I was properly introduced to McGann's Doctor via NOTD, and although he has become 'my' doctor I'll admit I have a biased point of view on things. Anyway, although he's clearly a great actor, and would have probably pulled the role of the War Doctor off if he had got the chance, I always struggled to see the 8th Doctor fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, even more so after getting to know him better in the audios/novels, there are certainly arguments for using 8 in the part, but personally I think Moffat had very good reasons for doing things the way he did, and i.m.o the ending he got in NOTD seems much more in character. As I understand it (from my limited knowledge of Mcoy's Dr) at the end of his Seventh incarnation, the Doctor grew tired of manipulation and endlessly playing 'a game of chess' with his enemies, and gradually grew into a more reserved contemplative man, sensing the oncoming darkness in his future, he spent his final years mostly alone, fixing mistakes and giving his next incarnation a clean slate fearing he wouldn't be up to task, so in some ways you can argue the 7th Doctor essentially rejected becoming a warrior or manipulator and purposely regenerated into the healer and romantic explorer he always was at heart(s), the 8th Doctor being a reaction to 7's persona, and something of a new start for the Doctor. Some Classic Who fans weren't overly enthusiastic about the barrier between the old show and the continuation being completely broken down, the time war is a construct of the New Series, and personally I'm not entirely sure throwing the Classic Doctors in would suit the characters very well,McGann though from between the eras is counted as a 'classic' doctor by the BBC, and wouldn't necessarily fit into Day Of The Doctor's script, as it was a very New Who driven storyline, moreover McGann's Doctor as a more user friendly romantic, was something of a prototype for Tennant and Smith's Doctors so wouldn't have provided the sort of contrast Moffat was after in the script i.m.o. Although having 8 destroy Gallifrey, or coming to terms with his actions after being prevented from doing so would have been a powerful redemptive arc for McGann (and obviously give him some much needed screen time, almost in a meta way, the half human doctor and star of a one of TV pilot be redeemed with the help of the Doctors of The New Series) I'm not convinced it was really merited by his storylines in the audios/book for several reasons, and B.F can do that to much greater effect in the audios anyway. Although from memory in the Dark Eyes bonus features, McGann seemed excited to play a more tougher, darker doctor, I think that was more down to a desire to explore the character in as many different ways as possible rather than a desire to play a grimdark warrior (I've read he considered quitting during the Divergent Universe arc, becoming bored with the direction of the character and storylines) Paul McGann himself has cast doubt on his doctor fighting in the time war: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5LVrTqp25o''Well I think, one of the nice things about Night Of The Doctor was playing that reluctance, playing that dilemma...I mean he looked like he'd had a fight...I kinda think it was the decent compromise...I'd rather play that I think because I'm not really...I don't know...I'm not really a tough guy, I don't do tough guys so well, I do mixed morality a bit better...'' Of course you could argue that the War Doctor wasn't quite the tough guy some of us thought he was anyway, but my point stands, McGann just seemed happy to be involved in any way, and it seems fitting he reprised the role in a way very similar to how his doctor first acted. As far as I can tell he was open to the idea and probably would have played the role if asked, but McGann has always seemed more drawn to the Doctor's inner psyche and heroism i.m.o, keen to explore as many new areas of the Doctor as possible, as he says in the interview, he doesn't think he could pull off tough guys very well (the Eigtht Doctor, though far from a pacifist isn't what I'd call tough). At the very least I think giving McGann an on screen regeneration and end point might work in BF's favour, by giving them a definite end point it means McGann is no longer just the wilderness years Doctor with no ending in sight. From his very first moments the 8th Doctor proved himself as a very fallible doctor, a moral idealist and impulsive romantic, this is the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the R-101, installs a buttefly sanctuary in the tardis and tried to rescue the Master from death even after he had murdered his companions, hardly the mark of detached warrior. The 8th Doctor is hardly a coward, but even when forced to fight the 8th Doctor comes across as a man who'd rather take any other option i.m.o, chastising himself and others for using violence voluntarily, he'd rather point a gun at himself than others. McGann can do snark and rage brilliantly, but even so I could never personally buy the idea of him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, every time he has fought the Daleks its been on a small scale with a very good reason or involving a personal grudge, which is very different to engaging in full scale war or genocide. I think his frequently shown disgust of time lord bureaucracy, and affinity for finding the joy and wonder in any situation paint him as rather more suited to a man trying to end the war from the outskirts than waging it at the front, the very fact that's he's so full of passion and anger in times of hardship make him less of a candidate, I don't think he'd have the outward detachment necessary. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well. He'd rather run. Look at the fourth doctor running away from the Presidency of The Timelords, the second fleeing the timelords after the war games or the tenth running away from the Shadow Proclamation saying the Doctor will lead them to war. Even the seventh doctor, although he is manipulative, is not outright war like, and Eight for the most part certainly isn't, as I said in my earlier post This exchange from one the audios sums up his attitude wonderfully: The Doctor: "This is how evil starts. With the belief that the ends justify the means. But once you start down that road, there's no turning back. What if you can save five million lives but you have to let ten people die? Or a hundred? Or a hundred thousand? Where do you stop?" Lucie Miller: "But you did. You did stop." Doctor: "I did. But by then I ended up traveling alone. Because I couldn't trust myself with anyone's life. Not after..." Lucie: "Not after? Not saying. OK. Then what made you change from being a lonely bean counter to companionable time traveler?" Doctor: "A new body. A clean slate, a fresh start. From that day I knew I never would countenance the death of a single living being. That's why I no longer travel alone. " Lucie: "Why?" Doctor: "So I could never forget how precious a single life is." I find it much easier to picture McGann's Doc trying to safe innocents from the sidelines and limit the damage through peaceful means rather than slaughtering daleks left right and center, I don't think his doctor would have be willing to work with the timelords that closely, nor throw himself into the fire not unless there was any other option, and I can't help but respect the 8th Doctor, right up to his death he refused to break his morals, and remained 'The Good Man' through a sense of misplaced honour. Many point to Dark Eyes audios as evidence for a darker, more callous 8th doctor, and whilst its true the 8th Doctor comes to a point where he actually contemplates wiping out the Daleks in this series (which Doctor hasn't?), the Dark Eyes arc even from the start was more about the Doctor searching for hope and redemption i.m.o, hope that the universe didn't just create evil monsters like the Daleks or traitorous timelords like the Master, and proving to himself that he could and would save people if given the choice. Dark Eyes 1 starts with the Doctor absolutely raging with anger and grief (after the loss of several companions to the Daleks), pushing him to the very brink of his moral edge, but if even at his lowest the Eigtht Doctor still consciously rejects the path that leads to open warfare, I don't think anything would really break him into a Warrior, his rage and anger is all the more striking in these audios, because it is so opposed to his usual nature, come Doom Coaltion he's reasonably chirpy and cheerful once more. That said, there's certainly an argument to be made that his Big Finish stories (and the books) do show a gradual journey from the scatterbrained, even childish, romantic wanderer he was in 1996 to something of a exhausted, emotionally broken old man on the brink of a very tragic fate, so you could argue Big Finish were moving McGann in a darker direction (if very slowly) anyway, and that destroying Gallifrey at the climax of a terrible war wouldn't be too much of a stretch as a believable way to end such an arc, but i.m.o the evidence does more to mark his Doctor as a man who would never do such a thing than it does to support it-though I understand the very notion of a 'lover' being forced to fight is a very powerful arc. The Dark Eyes boxsets i.m.o proved he wasn't a man who would be able to sacrifice even a few innocents lives for the needs of the many, or willingly walk down the road to double genocide, and how given the choice, he'd always strive for peace and honor if deep down, he still had hope things could change, as he says to the Master, 'I will not join you in this insane war across the timelines!'. There's a difference between character development and outright character rewriting, McGann's Doctor was at his hearts never a true warrior and would always find his way back to the 'light' and, as such wouldn't have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it-the War Doctor was set up and hyped as a massive contrast to 10 and 11, and even though he ended up being a red herring of sorts, I think breaking 8 down into a warrior, only to have the climax of the storyline (Gallifrey being destroyed) being averted wouldn't have rendered much of the development pretty pointless. Although Dark Eyes does reinforce the idea of McGann becoming darker, to me the 8th Doctor's darker aspects have always been more of a reaction to the writers experimenting with and testing his impulsive nature and high moral idealism, rather than any natural inward darkness in the Eigtht Doctor. Even in his darkest moments, his arc in the audios was more concerned with testing his Doctor, then pulling him back from his snapping point, rather than breaking him completely i.m.o. Of course there's no way of knowing how much the more recent boxsets were rewritten in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, but assuming at the time Big Finish wanted to stretch the gap between Dark Eyes and The Time War as wide as possible, they would be fighting a battle with listeners, who would naturally want to hear the time war as soon as possible, but once you break the doctor there's no going back, knowing that no matter what 8 becomes war the 8th Doctor would end up as a burnt out but brutal warrior, would i.m.o derail his gradual character arc and limit how far Big Finish could take the character, before things became very very depressing and repetitive, there was no guarantee their license would have been expanded to New Who, and I with Hurt's Doc now appearing in audios, I think the buildup to the time war won't be as rushed as it could have been. But let's assume McGann been cast as The War Doctor, Big Finish have stated many times before they are always keen to stretch and explore the lifespan of The Eighth Doctor as much as possible, using McGann as The Doctor who fought in the war for centuries could have pigeonholed how far they could experiment with the character, at the time of the 50th Anniversary, they had no idea if their license would be renewed or extended to cover New Who properties, and there's no guarantee McGann would have been happy exploring such a different version of his Doctor. With the 8th Doctor in particular there's a much stronger case for following his story chronologically, and things would only get cyclical and stale if you were always fighting the temptation to show the build up to the war or show a true Doctor Gone Dark, it's hard to believe a 'time war' would have started overnight or linearly, now BF have a largely outcast 'War Doctor' to write for, they can keep some of the time war mysterious, and can still tell the 8th Doctor's involvement in great detail, 8 and War operate very differently as Doctors, so there's room for a wider variety of Time War era stories. For many I think one of the attractions of using McGann as the War Doctor was the idea of his untapped potential, and the arc of a 'lover' being forced to become a fighter, which is a fair enough point of view, and certainly a interesting arc from a dramatic angle. For a doctor that started out questioning himself 'WHO AM I!' and expressed such a clear love of the universe, having his final actions lead to genocide and the destruction of his homeworld would have a tragically ironic ending, and given McGann some amazing material to work with as his soul was crushed by the weight of an endless war. However it's clear that The War Doctor wasn't quite the boogeyman some fans were lead to believe, and one of Moffat's points with Hurt's Doctor was to prove, no matter how Dark the character went, he was at heart still the Doctor. Therefore, I think Moffat (who has a clearly defined interpretation of the 8th Doctor's character) would have been even less inclined to make the 8th Doctor as dark as some fans wanted, and for me it would be a little too metatextual and a bit of a slap in the face to use the 8th Doctor in the timewar, his doctor dosen't need redeeming i.m.o. Personally I don't think it's an arc that is really backed up with McGann's work in the audios, I'd feel very cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh, and personally I don't find it as fulfilling or interesting from a dramatic point of view, it just seems predictable, The 8th Doctor has already been pushed to the brink with so much heartbreak, tipping him even further over the edge just seemed a bit...cynical, The very fact that it was revealed Gallifrey was never destroyed, although giving the Doctor a sense of retribution and a bittersweet ending would i.m.o render the theoritcal changes to his Doctor a little pointless. And vaing become a fan of the BBC 8th Doctors novels (which will hopefully be adapted by Big Finish one day...)McGann being the time war Doctor sits somewhat uneasily with me...what are the chances the same Doctor who deliberately didn't destroy Gallifrey permanently, to stop a war from starting, would contemplate destroying it completely after deliberately fighting in an even bigger war voluntarily?, it would be both retreading and cancelling out old ground for the 8th Doctor. Having come to know the 8th Doctor I'd have found it a massive kick in the teeth if they broke down McGann's heroic wanderer into a blood soaked outcast completely devoid of hope, only to have the destruction of Gallifrey reversed anyway-at least John Hurt's Doctor fought (largely) voluntarily and with purpose from the start, and adds a very different kinda of Doctor to the roster. I'm personally of the opinion some fans wanted McGann as the War Doctor because they didn't really know him and wanted to see more of the mystery explored, not because it was supported by the source material or his Doctors nature. Now thanks to Moffat's gamble, we have two doctors in the war-one a Doctor trying his utmost not to become a warrior, only to be pushed by circumstance into one a warrior gradually becoming a doctor again, it's a fascinating cycle with huge potential and with the forthcoming Time War Audios for each Doctor presumably running in parallel there's going to be some very interesting comparisons to explore Personally I loved the idea of an outcast, self loathing 'War' Doctor, and for a variety of in universe and practical reasons. Although a peice of retroactive continuity (though since we never got confirmation whether it was 8 or 9 who fought in the time war, it doesn't actually change that much) I think it makes more canonical sense than using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the role (and frankly a more interesting story), and gave us a brilliant new Doctor in Hurt, though I appreciate their are issues and concerns that some had about the character, and it does detract from the Doctor's character arc in some respects.
The War Doctor raises some interesting dilemmas and parallels with real conflicts. Soldiers are genuine people too, doing a job they are trained to do (not always voluntarily), rarely genuinely violent, defending their freedom and homes, having to make very tough decisions in the process, fighting an enemy who are genuine people with similar obligations and logic for fighting. So using that reasoning, taking the Doctor out of that dilemna by putting in a newly created 'sort-of-but-not-quite Doctor' in his place (moreover one we first see at the very end of his life when he isn't going to be the warrior of his prime ) arguably cheapens some of the drama, and allows the Doctor to excuse his actions because he temporarily went by a different name (which is either a good or bad thing depending on how you view the character as a children's hero), even if he later excepts those actions. On the other hand Doctor Who is set in a heightened sci-fi environment, the Doctor isn't a human hero, and in The Time War he wasn't fighting a human enemy, so should be held to different reasoning i.m.o.
Out of universe, it's primarily a family show that can't or doesn't want to explore such dark, morally grey themes to the extent they deserve, and first and foremost has to think of the casual viewer (even if this was a 50th Anniversary episode), and I'm not completely convinced McGann would appeal to the casual viewer, I'd never seen or heard anything about the 8th Doctor until NOTD, but the notion of a hidden 'war doctor' certainly got me interested.
A lot of people wrote off Colin Baker's more abrasive Doctor after he strangled his companion (despite his Doctor mellowing in the audios, even on the TV series to an extent), Tom Baker's more morose fourth Doctor in his final years does seem somewhat at odds with with his earlier self, Tennant went fairly dark and arrogant in his last few specials (a stark contrast to his cheery eyed ladies man take on the character, though the 'time lord victorious' thing was quickly reversed) even Capaldi alienated a few viewers with his colder more abrasive 12th Doctor.
The difference being all these Doctors, had character progression and change during their tenures on screen, but not to the extent that it was a complete surprise or distraction. McGann had never got that character progression on screen (frankly I'd feel cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh) and remains for most a largely unknown doctor, if audiences had seen his Doctor break and grow darker over a length period or large number of storylines such a change would probably be easier to understand (even if it's still more of a rewrite than character progression) but to so such a sudden change of character, have his Doctor become a warrior, and handwave it away with a few lines of dialogue could be seen as lazy or confusing by casual viewers. The popular image of McGann's Doctor among those of the general public who actually remember or like the TV Movie is the easily distracted romantic charmer with with the frock coat, long hair and gothic tardis interior, (which is fair enough considering the limited availability/extra cost of the expanded universe materials for his Doctor), arguably less of a proper doctor , more a man who appeared in an episode once.
But McGann hated that wig and would probably stipulate in his contract that he didn't have to wear it if he returned, the tardis set from 1996 no longer exists and complicated rights issues would nix any major references to his companions Grace and Chang from the TV Movie. You could explain the change in character, as well explaining how his Doctor got to this point with vague references to the Big Finish continuity (or even the BBC Books/Comics, weirdly the BBC books, though out of print have a stronger case to be 'canon' as they were produced 'in house'...though with a explicitly and very different destruction of Gallifrey and a another timewar... it would be very confusing figuring out what to reference). However the BBC charter rules that a programme must be able to be understood by the public using only broadcast material produced by the BBC (Night of the Doctor was released under different circumstances, first broadcast on the BBC Iplayer and Red Button, which is probably why it got away with name dropping some of his Big Finish companions)-it's unfair on the audience to have to purchase additional material produced by another company to understand key plot points or character backgrounds.
I doubt McGann would have been happy with a storyline that either pigeonholed or largely ignored the substantial work he had put into the audios over the years, and if McGann had been the war Doctor, it would be both retreading slightly similar events and cancelling out large proportions of his backstory as established by the very same expanded universe materials that are largely responsible for the fanbase his Doctor has. Such expanded universe materials are generally only considered partially canon by many viewers, and often viewed as intrusive or boring to many ordinary viewers anyway...so if you are going to be ignoring the legacy and essentially creating a brand new doctor from the ground up,...why not just go the whole hog and do it for real?
Even assuming you could persuade McGann's Doctor to once again don the wig, and bring back all the elements of his Doctor from 1996 (alot of effort from 1996) this could have interfered with Big Finish continuity (having already shown a major costume change in the Dark Eyes audios) and majorly p*ss off the fans who had spent much money and time following the audios, it's a loose-loose situation.Even now, to be frank, I'm not completely convinced McGann's return would create the same excitement for the general public as Hurt's casting did. McGann's Doctor only really appealed to hardcore fans or those who like the idea of his mystery, I'd argue the public memory of his doctor isn't detailed, him kissing Grace, a motorbike chase , 'Who AM I???' 'These shoes, they fit perfectly!', Eric Robert's hammy Master and San Francisco on New Year's Eve, it's not much of a legacy, but it's enough for many people to pass judgement, and little enough for many others to be ignorant of or ignore, a brand new Doctor with a clearly defined purpose put everyone on the same page and gave Moffat greater say in how to write his character traits.
For most, McGann's Doctor is probably, and sadly more defined by his absence and the failure of the TV Movie to lead to a series than his actual performance and take on the Doctor. Putting his regeneration in a standalone internet special made alot of sense from a business point of view i.m.o, diehard fans would happily turn to YouTube to see Eight's regeneration, new viewers would be intrigued or confused, but they are sitting at a computer so could just look at the Wiki entry for him, it built hype for the actual special and kept everyone talking about McGann for a week afterwards, with the huge popularity of Smith and Tennant to compete againist, I wonder if McGann's Dr could have been lost in the background a bit had he played the role.
Whilst McGann's Doctor has certainly become much more popular in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, that's still a short, niche and largely unseen internet short that builds on, and pays tribute to his character arc and persona in the audios, DOTD would have less freedom and room to do so, with the time war Doctor acting largely as a plot point and playing second fiddle to two other, immensely popular Doctors, Hurt's Doc offered something totally new for everyone
At the time Moffat had no way of knowing if McGann's Doctor would provoke a popular reaction in the casual audiences, he may not have even been available for filming, and although he's a excellent Actor and very likable Doctor, he had only played the role once before on screen, some 17 years before, so there was precious little for Moffat to judge his Doctor on, an internet Short which focused on McGann and gave him a simple, but tragic storyline was probably easier for both Moffat and McGann to work with.
McGann's Doctor was, and generally is a polar opposite to Eccleston's, and in many ways remains a prototype for Tennant and Smith's more romantic, outwardly open Doctors, a naturally charming and at heart(s) youthful optimist, his Doctor wouldn't necessarily provide the contrast or gravitas Moffat was after in the script, to accommodate McGann he would have to rewrite the script for Eight, time which he didn't have.
Even supposing Moffat went down the route of making McGann's Doctor much wearier and darker, the character and history of the 8th Doctor is already long established in expanded media, with a small but devoted following, if he was going to go to the bother of bringing him back largely to please these fans, ignoring what's gone before and the work McGann had already put into the franchise wouldn't sit very well with the fanbase. There's nearly seventeen years worth of history to reference, summarize and provide a adequate conclusion to (with the BBC charter and copyright laws to work around), with everyone's own version of McGann's ending playing in their heads already, it's a hell of alot of pressure to live up to, and there wouldn't necessarily be time to close his story in a dramatic enough way, DOTD was supposed to push the story forward, unfortunately McGann's Doctor isn't really known enough to merit a huge part in that i.m.o.
On the other hand, although I always had my doubts Eccleston would have worked in the 50th in the role, Moffat's original idea about bringing Nine back as the War Doctor would have probably been easier to believe for alot of viewers. Eccleston's Doc was a believable tough guy, angry, haunted and snarky (even if he claims to be something of a coward), it's easy to see how he would have slotted into the DOTD script. 'The Ninth Doctor returns' has a more instant pull i.m.o because there's a vivid recent(ish) image of Eccleston's Doctor as a character in the public memory, he continues to be a popular doctor with a whole series and character arc to work with (and huge numbers wishing for his return), RTD wrote his Doctor with the vague idea that he had ended, and probably fought in The Time War ( as I understand it the 8th Doctor was at one point intended to regenerate in the Comic arc 'The Flood' prior to the time war actually starting) and recently confirmed that Rose was never intended to be his first adventure, so there was certainly room for expansion.
That said, Nine had a fantastic completed arc in Series 1, seeing a story set before that (or one that potentially undermines his Doctor's trauma) wouldn't necessarily work with this arc, using The Ninth Doctor would have probably made the story feel too celebratory of New Who with only the three new Doctors being involved in major roles, and if Moffat had his doubts about Eccleston's Doctor being responsible from the beginning it's hard to say why you'd want him writing 8 in, as I said above at least Eccleston's Doc has an on screen legacy to build on.
Casting Hurt as a hidden 'war' doctor though retroactive continuity, was a very useful shortcut for Moffat and adds alot to the mythos of Who i.m.o. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well, and we've never seen him fight in a conflict of this scale before as viewers, never a coward but a man who'd rather run away from or negotiate than fight in a full scale war, even in his Seventh life he was more of a scheming chess player than a bloodthirsty grunt, as such an outcast 'War Doctor' who casts away the name adds to the mystery of the conflict and allows much more scope and freedom for story-lines. The Time War is meant to be an unimaginably huge conflict, taking place off screen between Classic and New Who, as such it feels sorta right it has its own Doctor, personally as a viewer I find it easier to sympathize with a Warrior who fights without choice, rather than a Doctor throwing away his morals and fighting voluntarily.
Using John Hurt (who is frankly, an even better actor than McGann) as a grizzled veteran doctor created several shortcuts, firstly-'Oh so this is the guy he fought the time war, gotcha I don't need to see anything else to know who he is and wouldn't feel confused upon finding out he has hundreds of non televised stories', casting an older actor as the third Doctor in the trio acts as something of a cypher for the classic doctors who couldn't fit into the episode, with the older but younger War Doctor chastising his younger successors it's a neat callback to the Three Doctors, in Moffat's script there was precious little time and space for the Classic Doctors, and Hurt's elderly doctor acts as a cypher for them all, a metaphor for the off-screen years of the franchise and the Classic Doctors passing judgement on the New. Creating the War Doctor to replace Eccleston was a lesser rewrite from a character point of view than using McGann would be, and frankly I just think it's a more interesting story.
Revealing that the Doctor had a hidden incarnation that we never knew about, and one he himself had outcast, instead of simply treading the expected ground that Eight or Nine went dark and did the deed surprised everyone and adds alot of mystery to the Doctors actions in the war, and it's a more exciting story from a marketing point of view. A secret Doctor is ripe for exploration (even if you hate the concept, a whole new doctor is alot of fun to play around with from a writers point of view), and it presented the fascinating opportunity for a rigorous study of what defines "the Doctor.", in a way no normal doctor could, without the baggage of working with a previously defined character history.
How far could he go as a 'good man'?; at what point does he stop being "the Doctor"? Do his actions rather than his name mark him as or not as the doctor? Does he deserve being outcast? And just how far was he willing to go in the time war?
And then we get the exploration on the "promise" and deeper meaning behind the Doctor's name, very interesting stuff in Hurt's hands.
The War Doctor also had the additional benefit of bumping up the regeneration limit (what better time to finally deal with the limit than in the 50th anniversary year?) helped build the hype for Smith's imminent regeneration and the war on Trenzalore (quite tragic really-he finally comes to terms with his past as the War Doctor and saves gallifrey only to be plunged soon afterwards into another war...) which in turn started Capaldi off completely fresh - Gallifrey is saved, the silence/trenazlore arcs are complete and he has a new mission, and plenty of new lives to explore the galaxy with once more.
I also like that it shifts the blame of the time war onto an outcast Doctor who has to earn the name once more (in universe I always found the idea that he kept the name doctor in the midst of a huge war a little weird) and there's more drama and subversion working following the war doctor as he starts out as more of a 'bad guy' and gradually becomes more of a doctor as time passes rather than 8 or 9 becoming dark, it's rather more interesting from a dramatic point of view, starting out with a man who isn't the Doctor, slowly becoming more of the man once more when exposed to warfare, and looking at the cliches of the war genre through the opposite perspective. This keeps the 'proper' doctors even more of a hero figure for children, and gives all new viewers one more mystery to explore and think about when they reach the 50th Anniversary episode.
Sure, you could argue that Moffat's basic reasoning for the war doctor (he couldn't imagine McGann pressing the button) was flawed, as we get to know him in a story where he's prevented (or overwrited depending on how you interpret the episode) from having to destroy Gallifrey in the first place rendering much of his purpose apparently pointless, however this also proves that there was an equally flawed reasoning for using McGann in Day Of The Doctor i.m.o...what would be the point in breaking the 8th Doctor into that mindset if he was prevented for destroying Gallifrey in the first place/or played a major part in its salvation? Even the War Doctor hesitates and is saved from doing so, so it's clear if Moffat didn't want to show the 'Warrior' doing the deed, he'd be even less likely to show 8's 'proper dotor' doing so.
Admittedly The Doctor has never denied his actions in the war, nor denied the blood on his hands as a consequence , so in the literal sense the War Doctor wasn't a hidden incarnation in a way that really mattered, we'd always known that A Doctor had fought in the war, and we'd known since 'Dalek' that it was him that had 'destroyed' Gallifrey, so I can understand why the revelation about The War Doctor was for some a disappointment, the hype didn't necessarily match what we saw onscreen, but there's a limit to how dark the BBC could take things.
And yes, all other reasoning aside the gravitas of having McGann, one of the least likely Doctors to 'push the button' do it and destroy Gallifrey would have been amazing to see, he's a strong enough actor, and such a compelling Doctor that he would have nailed the role had it been written with him in mind i.m.o. But on the other hand seeing the Eigtht Doctors love of the universe and ultimately futile idealism lead to his downfall, and his willingness to lay down his life to save a stranger backfire and force him into finally throwing away the morals of his current regeneration was equally memorable and surprising, and more in keeping with the general tone of his Doctor i.m.o.
You could certainly argue turning 8 into a warrior would have been merited or possibly expected by some as a character progression, considering the deaths of five of his companions at the hands of the daleks in the audios, the 8th Doctor has more reason than most to hold a grudge, and there would be some excellent drama hearing 8 become so angry and vengeful, but 8th Doctor has never really operated like that, he lacks the detachment and would be above holding petty grudges. One of Moffat's key points with the war Doctor, was that he was a burnt out warrior wishing he was the Doctor once more, he wasn't really the source of darkness everyone wanted, making McGann some sort of outcast grimdark killer would seem even more out of place.
Even if you aren't attached to Eight as a Doctor, surely you care about having the final choices of such a larger than life Doctor make sense? This is the man who tried to save The Master from death in the TV Movie even after he 'killed' Grace and tried to do the same to him, a doctor who'd rather point a gun at his own head than threaten others, carries around spare food in his pockes for strangers, the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the wreck of the R101, and the Doctor who risked his life to save Davros from the Nightmare Child even after all his losses againist the Daleks. You could argue many, if not all of the Doctors would have probably done something similar, but my point stands, Eight was generally a moral idealist and a romantic, he'd rather negotiate or run than fight, a man certainly not short of courage but also one who offered second chances when he didn't have to, and lived very much in the moment, I just don't believe his Doctor was detatched enough to become a warrior.
Other problems I had in turning McGann into the War Doctor are simply pragmatic, as we see in Day Of The Doctor its the final day of the War, all the implied rage and fire of the War Doctors early years (given that he's by engineered especially to fight by the Sisterhood, I'm guessing he'd have more fire and rage than an already rather old and worn down 8th doctor could ever have when the time war breaks out) was long gone in Moffat's script, casual audiences wouldn't have any idea as to how McGann's romatic scatterbrained adventurer had become this broken and battle hardened, its hardly fair to go and say to them 'Go and listen to several decades of audios, which are years away from catching up to this point anyway to get the implied context, by the way due to the BBC charter we can't really refer to the audios directly in the show anyway' to get them caught up with the Doctor's change in temperament. McGann's Doctor was so full of life and energy, it's very hard for me personally to picture him so cold and broken.
We saw the Doctors soul being saved by the moment, just a different Doctor, one perhaps even more tragically deserving of it, The War Doctor had spent his entire lifespan fighting an endless war, knowing on this final day as he chooses to detonate the moment it was all utterly pointless, only to be saved the actions of his successors, from a personal point of view I find it easier to 'get with' the redemption of a Warrior who in his words 'did it without choice' yet gradually walks back along the path to being the Doctor (I know some complained that in DOTD The War Doctor wasn't too bloodthirsty, merely exhausted, that was the point I think, John Hurt in DOTD wasn't the boogeyman 10 and 11's memories had made him out to be) rather than the actions of a the 8th Doctor who did it willingly.
Although I'm generally of the opinion the Time War should remain largely untold, but the War Doctor certainly adds to the mystery, interest and tragedy of the conflict for me, and I find the idea of a warrior walking along a path back to being the Doctor, rather than a Doctor being broken into a warrior more true to the character and series tone and rather more interesting from a character stand point. The War Doctor acts as an interesting parallel to many of 8s key character traits, and now gives us two time war Doctor with very different goals and viewpoints of the conflict.
That said I do understand your point about 8 now lacking a sense of catharsis, almost all the other Doctors went out heroically, in a way fundamentally of their choosing, 8 dies being forced by circumstance, and ultimately never finds a true final purpose in hid incarnation, but I'd argue in a way, that was more tragic, and oddly fitting for McGann's wilderness year Dr.
Personally I thought John Hurt gave a magnificent performance as the War Doctor, making the most of his limited screentime, I enjoyed his/Moffat's interpretation of the character very much and I'm hopeful we'll see more and more of his doctor in the expanded media as the years pass, McGann would have undoubtedly done great things in the part, but honestly I think things worked out for the better, though I understand why you feel differently.
Thank you for acknowledging my opinion. I call it my Geas theory and it's the one that made the most sense to me watching it at the time. The Doctor making a Faustian pact worthy of Macbeth. The Eighth Doctor was in many ways designed as a knee-jerk reaction to the Seventh Doctor's attitude towards the greater universe with a focus on living, rather than planning his life. He had a breathless energy and wonder to him at the beginning, but remember people do change. This was a Doctor who had destroyed his world once already in The Ancestor Cell, who beat a man's head in because he murdered his daughter's caretaker, who picks up a gun and kills a man to spare his companion having to do the deed instead and wipes out parallel universe Paratractis to salvage the prime universe's Earth because an evil had to be committed today so a good could transpire tomorrow. To the Death even has him ruminating on his first incarnation's intention to pick up a rock and kill a caveman that's slowing his party down, thinking perhaps if he had applied the same ruthless tactics no great tragedy would have erupted. Doctor Who has explored these kinds of themes with other stories, Killing Ground for instance, ends with the Sixth Doctor dangling on a cable about to commit suicide. He's a man so ravaged by guilt, he's willing to kill himself rather than let the Valeyard be born. There are stories in the televised series that follow this same line like Inferno (Warped, evil visitations of well-known friends), Revelation of the Daleks ("If you ever loved me Natasha, KILL ME!") , The Curse of Fenric (The Doctor about Ace, "Kill her.") , The Dalek Invasion of Earth (The sheer brutality of the Dalek occupation), etc. These themes have been tackled on family viewing before. Tom Baker's happy debut story even dealt with the concept of a nuclear Armageddon caused by a breach of the Cold War, really hard-hitting stuff for children. It's damn frightening when you realise how close it could have come to happening. Addressing the sudden shift between the TV Movie and the minisode. I point to Star Trek: The Original Series and the subsequent films for comparison where time has indeed moved on and the characters have changed. When you get to The Wrath of Khan film, Captain Kirk is now Admiral Kirk and has a son, something thought to be ludicrous during the original run. I think so long as you acknowledge the passage of time, audiences will accept the change. After all, didn't the Ninth Doctor come onto screens with viewers knowing little of how he first came to be? In media res can be a very powerful ally, if used properly. I'll quote for you something I said on the original forums that summed up my feelings on the matter rather well:
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jan 21, 2016 14:41:51 GMT
Thank you for acknowledging my opinion. I call it my Geas theory and it's the one that made the most sense to me watching it at the time. The Doctor making a Faustian pact worthy of Macbeth. The Eighth Doctor was in many ways designed as a knee-jerk reaction to the Seventh Doctor's attitude towards the greater universe with a focus on living, rather than planning his life. He had a breathless energy and wonder to him at the beginning, but remember people do change. This was a Doctor who had destroyed his world once already in The Ancestor Cell, who beat a man's head in because he murdered his daughter's caretaker, who picks up a gun and kills a man to spare his companion having to do the deed instead and wipes out parallel universe Paratractis to salvage the prime universe's Earth because an evil had to be committed today so a good could transpire tomorrow. Doctor Who has explored these kinds of themes with other stories, Killing Ground for instance, ends with the Sixth Doctor dangling on a cable about to commit suicide. He's a man so ravaged by guilt, he's willing to kill himself rather than let the Valeyard be born. There are stories in the televised series that follow this same line like Inferno (Warped, evil visitations of well-known friends), Revelation of the Daleks ("If you ever loved me Natasha, KILL ME!") , The Curse of Fenric (The Doctor about Ace, "Kill her.") , The Dalek Invasion of Earth (The sheer brutality of the Dalek occupation), etc. These themes have been tackled on family viewing before. Tom Baker's happy debut story even dealt with the concept of a nuclear Armageddon caused by a breach of the Cold War, really hard-hitting stuff for children. It's damn frightening when you realise how close it could have come to happening. Addressing the sudden shift between the TV Movie and the minisode. I point to Star Trek: The Original Series and the subsequent films for comparison where time has indeed moved on and the characters have changed. When you get to The Wrath of Khan, Captain Kirk is now Admiral Kirk and has a son, something thought to be ludicrous during the original run. I think so long as you acknowledge the passage of time, audiences will accept the change. After all, didn't the Ninth Doctor come onto screens with viewers knowing little of how he first came to be? In media res can be a very powerful ally, if used properly. I'll quote for you something I said on the original forums that summed up my feelings on the matter rather well: Again I do completely understand where you are coming from, but it all goes back to the idea that you and I are looking at things from a fan's perspective, moreover fans with at least some knowledge of the books, audios etc, Moffat stated in interviews he could not picture the 8th Doctor as he saw him, as a warrior, and I'm inclined think many of the public would feel the same, McGann only had one story so although you could argue there wasn't much of a legacy, the 8th Doctor was still a clearly defined character for the public, and I'm not convinced they would accept or like the idea of his doctor suddenly becoming a warrior with some vague explanation that all the character development happened off screen-we waited 17 years to see him again, it's reassuring he's fundamentally the same sort of Doctor, in anycase since DOTD showed that Gallifrey was never destroyed in the first place, I think it would render using McGann in the role kind of pointless-he wouldn't had to face the no-win situation, and as such the tragic ending in NOTD was i.m.o a more powerful ending, giving the 8th Doctor a sense of closure, heroism and tragedy all at once. The sheer power and tragedy of the 8th Doctor becoming a blood soaked warrior would have been great to see unfold onscreen, but realistically it was never going to happen, DOTD was partly about celebrating the Doctor as an idealistic hero, and as such I'm largely glad McGann wasn't used in the War Doctor role, as you say That he can be courageous, brave and deitic, but he can also be fallible, vengeful, cruel and desperate But he was not a coward, Moffat and the show in this episode seemed to set out to prove he'd always suceed and find a way around problems, in some ways yes, a coward, but that's commercial TV for you. As for the Ancestor Cell* (which I own a copy of but haven't got round to reading yet)...as I understand it doesn't he download a copy of the matrix into his brain, and only destroys Gallifrey (isn't there a mention of 'Nine' Gallifreys in the EDA novels?) to stop the 2nd War in Heaven from starting? It's a last ditch resort but still one taken with a sense of hope, rather different from fighting in a war for centuries and being hell bent on destroying the planet permanently, I think it's extremely unlikely the 8th Doctor would do the same thing twice, and having come so close to loosing his homeworld before, you would have thought he'd have learned from his mistakes, he's lost so many companions to the Daleks you would thought 8 would have been a gibbering, angry wreck when the time war roles around, but to me there's something rather admirable that at his heart the 8th Doctor remains the 'good man'. I guess it just boils down to how far you think the morality of the Doctor should be pushed within the confines of the TV show. But each to their own, I certainly see where you are coming from though, and the very fact that even now it's still a controversial argument probably supports both of our viewpoints... *I know BF have ruled out EDA adaptations, but you have to wonder how they would reconcile the first destruction of Gallifrey, 8's exile on Earth and the 2nd War In Heaven with the new series and not risk undermining the 9-11th Dr's...
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jan 21, 2016 15:44:37 GMT
I have some similar problems to Wolfie, but he was in an extreme state of emotional devastation, so I use that to explain away my gripes. He probably knew he couldn't run forever, and he'd have to take a more aggressive role in the war eventually; he just really really didn't want to. If he truly gave up, he wouldn't have let the Sisters talk him round, and accepted the elixir.
It's still the best short of the new Series, closely followed by "Born Again" and "Time Crash", and an elegant bridge for McGann's era to the new Series. And like Aztec, Night of the Doctor was one of the contributing factors that brought me round to Big Finish.
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Post by seeley on Jan 21, 2016 18:04:02 GMT
Before The Day of the Doctor, the answer was: "Yes." And that says something not only about the Eighth Doctor, but all the Doctors collectively. That he can be courageous, brave and deitic, but he can also be fallible, vengeful, cruel and desperate. But he was not a coward, he stood at the Moment and hit the switch that killed everyone and instead of throwing himself into the heart of a sun, he chose instead to live with it. Live with the death of his entire world, even though it would turn out to be for nothing. That speaks more to me about the strength of the Doctor's character than the "I changed my mind," quick-fix solution like Day ever really could. Wasn't the whole point of the scene with the three Doctors about to use the Moment that any Doctor would have destroyed Gallifrey (barring the intervention of the Moment and Clara)?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2016 0:22:14 GMT
Again I do completely understand where you are coming from, but it all goes back to the idea that you and I are looking at things from a fan's perspective, moreover fans with at least some knowledge of the books, audios etc, Moffat stated in interviews he could not picture the 8th Doctor as he saw him, as a warrior, and I'm inclined think many of the public would feel the same, McGann only had one story so although you could argue there wasn't much of a legacy, the 8th Doctor was still a clearly defined character for the public, and I'm not convinced they would accept or like the idea of his doctor suddenly becoming a warrior with some vague explanation that all the character development happened off screen-we waited 17 years to see him again, it's reassuring he's fundamentally the same sort of Doctor, in anycase since DOTD showed that Gallifrey was never destroyed in the first place, I think it would render using McGann in the role kind of pointless-he wouldn't had to face the no-win situation, and as such the tragic ending in NOTD was i.m.o a more powerful ending, giving the 8th Doctor a sense of closure, heroism and tragedy all at once. The sheer power and tragedy of the 8th Doctor becoming a blood soaked warrior would have been great to see unfold onscreen, but realistically it was never going to happen, DOTD was partly about celebrating the Doctor as an idealistic hero, and as such I'm largely glad McGann wasn't used in the War Doctor role, as you say That he can be courageous, brave and deitic, but he can also be fallible, vengeful, cruel and desperate But he was not a coward, Moffat and the show in this episode seemed to set out to prove he'd always suceed and find a way around problems, in some ways yes, a coward, but that's commercial TV for you. As for the Ancestor Cell* (which I own a copy of but haven't got round to reading yet)...as I understand it doesn't he download a copy of the matrix into his brain, and only destroys Gallifrey (isn't there a mention of 'Nine' Gallifreys in the EDA novels?) to stop the 2nd War in Heaven from starting? It's a last ditch resort but still one taken with a sense of hope, rather different from fighting in a war for centuries and being hell bent on destroying the planet permanently, I think it's extremely unlikely the 8th Doctor would do the same thing twice, and having come so close to loosing his homeworld before, you would have thought he'd have learned from his mistakes, he's lost so many companions to the Daleks you would thought 8 would have been a gibbering, angry wreck when the time war roles around, but to me there's something rather admirable that at his heart the 8th Doctor remains the 'good man'. I guess it just boils down to how far you think the morality of the Doctor should be pushed within the confines of the TV show. But each to their own, I certainly see where you are coming from though, and the very fact that even now it's still a controversial argument probably supports both of our viewpoints... *I know BF have ruled out EDA adaptations, but you have to wonder how they would reconcile the first destruction of Gallifrey, 8's exile on Earth and the 2nd War In Heaven with the new series and not risk undermining the 9-11th Dr's... Yeah, The Day of the Doctor really does make the whole RTD era's themes pointless, much like with the cracks in time really. Unless you go with the notion that the Eleventh Doctor's intervention caused a new timeline to emerge, the Ninth Doctor's post-traumatic stress disorder seems a bit naff knowing that he's torturing himself over nothing. There are no stakes, nothing to be invested in because we know it didn't happen. You're absolutely right though, I am looking at it from the perspective of a longtime fan and I am bound to have grievances because I'm not new to the show. Mind you, I am someone who thought the TV Movie was appalling and I was just starting out. I know it's the post-regenerative cooldown period, but the Eighth Doctor goes around in a panic like he's worried that the moment he stops expositing his life story to Grace he'll die. Given the ironic metatext, that's actually kind of funny in hindsight. Less Shyamalan-style telling and more showing would definitely have helped that really, really bad fetch quest plot. That's the sliding scale of romanticism/realism for you. Moffat is very much towards the Romantic end believing that tragedy can be undone rather than overcome. Which is sweet, much like his original reason for introducing the sonic sunglasses, but it doesn't quite fit with what classic series viewers or even Russell T. Davies (the man loved a good bloodbath in his scripts) viewers expect of the series. That's on us as much as it is on him. In terms of The Ancestor Cell, that was something that came at the far end of the range's run. We're talking thirty-six books and five years later, at the time it was done and there was no way around it. Gallifrey was gone, finito. There were no efforts to restore it until the final book rolled around and revealed this bit of information. The Nine Gallifreys are reduced down to one because of the Faction, who admittedly are really out of character in that book. A full-scale invasion is against their normal modus operandi of operating from the shadows and feeding off the War like carrion. Ultimately though, I think Eight would really do it again, you only have to look at the final moments of To the Death to see that's the point where he breaks. He is nasty when he's mad or desperate, all of the Doctors are. Very true and I think it's largely a question of background too. My first exposure to Doctor Who was through a combination of old Hartnell reruns, video tapes of the Sixth Doctor's first season and DVDs of Remembrance of the Daleks (which includes the apparent genocide of the Daleks by the Doctor when he blows up Skaro). So, I'm part of the crowd who kind of gently roll their eyes at the assertion that "The Doctor doesn't use weapons" or "The Doctor doesn't use violence" because on both accounts he quite evidently does, you only have to look at aikido master Jon Pertwee, Ice Warrior melting Pat Troughton, the cane wielding Bill Hartnell, the boxing Colin Baker or the equally fisticuff focussed Tom Baker to see how he does. That interpretation only came around as a result of Peter Davison (the lovably fluffy Fifth Doctor) and even then, he uses hexachromite gas to kill all the Silurians aboard Seabase Four and lets the Master burn to death in Planet of Fire. It's not that the Doctor will not kill full stop, it's more that the Doctor will kill, but only if there is no other alternative and for the War, it certainly looked that way. My thoughts on Eight being a good man was that he was pushed too far. He presses the button, annihilates Gallifrey and almost immediately regrets his decision to do so. Part of it extends from the current attitude towards death in the Moffat tenure, mainly that it's a slap on the wrist and that's something I honestly just can't stand for a lot of reasons, quite a lot of them ethical. Again, that's on me rather than an intrinsic failure of the current production office. Even if ratings have been down this past season. Oh, yeah well and truly. I think both viewpoints are equally valid. The only thing that distinguishes the two really is just a question of background. There's an edge of pragmatism you'll find in the earlier stories that you just won't find nowadays and that influences certain expectations. (I don't think you can really undermine the destruction of a whole world. It's like World War I and World War II, does the existence of a latter war diminish what was wrought in the former? I know many people see the Last Great Time War as a direct result of the Second War in Heaven, which itself was originally intended to be a result of the War of the Great Vampires, which was a result of them cracking open that black hole and finding the psychotic Yssgaroth on the other side. Little wars have lesser wars, ad infinitum.) I have some similar problems to Wolfie, but he was in an extreme state of emotional devastation, so I use that to explain away my gripes. He probably knew he couldn't run forever, and he'd have to take a more aggressive role in the war eventually; he just really really didn't want to. If he truly gave up, he wouldn't have let the Sisters talk him round, and accepted the elixir. It's still the best short of the new Series, closely followed by "Born Again" and "Time Crash", and an elegant bridge for McGann's era to the new Series. And like Aztec, Night of the Doctor was one of the contributing factors that brought me round to Big Finish. So, it's a short that's done a lot of good too. Before The Day of the Doctor, the answer was: "Yes." And that says something not only about the Eighth Doctor, but all the Doctors collectively. That he can be courageous, brave and deitic, but he can also be fallible, vengeful, cruel and desperate. But he was not a coward, he stood at the Moment and hit the switch that killed everyone and instead of throwing himself into the heart of a sun, he chose instead to live with it. Live with the death of his entire world, even though it would turn out to be for nothing. That speaks more to me about the strength of the Doctor's character than the "I changed my mind," quick-fix solution like Day ever really could. Wasn't the whole point of the scene with the three Doctors about to use the Moment that any Doctor would have destroyed Gallifrey (barring the intervention of the Moment and Clara)? I think so. One of the things I wanted to do when I was thinking about how I would've written the ending of the Time War was doing vignettes of each incarnation descending from Seven backwards, watching each of their reactions in turn until we get to the First Doctor, who shows the least remorse and compunction. That final little preview would have lead into the Eighth Doctor making his decision, whatever it would be.
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Post by elkawho on Jan 22, 2016 4:26:20 GMT
I like this thread a lot. I am mostly in agreement with Wolfie. I think War was a huge misstep in the Doctor Who canon. It robbed McGann the chance to show how Eight has grown and matured with time. His Doctor has been put through some incredibly difficult and dark times and is no longer the happy romantic he started out as in the the TV Movie (and I've only heard his audios; I've never even read his novels). But through it all he has shown courage and has never run from his responsibility. For those not familiar with Eight in anything except the TV movie, this change could have been handled well within the confines of DOTD, however Moffat chose not to. And I won't even go into the damage DOTD does to the RTD era.
Because of this I had originally avoided all media regarding War. I did not read Engines of War. But because I do love John Hurt as an actor and suffer from Big Finish addiction, I went ahead and purchased The War Doctor boxset. I loved it.
So now I am completely conflicted. Every single objection I have to War is still valid and I have not changed my mind regarding this. However I plan on buying more of the boxsets. In fact, I find myself looking forward to them. I fear I may end up with some sort of split personality disorder.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jan 22, 2016 9:26:16 GMT
So now I am completely conflicted. Every single objection I have to War is still valid and I have not changed my mind regarding this. However I plan on buying more of the boxsets. In fact, I find myself looking forward to them. I fear I may end up with some sort of split personality disorder. I think it's called Cognitive Dissonance ... sit back and enjoy the ride Cheers Tont
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jan 22, 2016 22:46:31 GMT
I'm inclined to agree that Night of the Doctor is a wonderful ending to the Eighth Doctor. I actually prefer the idea of him resisting the War and protecting people on the fringes rather than becoming a soldier for the Time Lords. Dying to save just one life before he realizes he can't run any more is a great end to the the character. On the other hand, I feel like the War Doctor isn't "not the Doctor" enough for the Doctors to bury any memory of him and never mention him. Destroying Gallifrey is presented as his great crime/secret, which doesn't make much sense since the Doctor openly admitted to destroying the Time Lords before. I personally would have preferred Sir John Hurt as being a secret incarnation BEFORE the Doctor, predating William Hartnell, but that would have led to an entirely different story. I enjoy the episode we got, but I think the concept of a secret incarnation, which is really cool, was a bit wasted.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 5:15:58 GMT
I'm inclined to agree that Night of the Doctor is a wonderful ending to the Eighth Doctor. I actually prefer the idea of him resisting the War and protecting people on the fringes rather than becoming a soldier for the Time Lords. Dying to save just one life before he realizes he can't run any more is a great end to the the character. On the other hand, I feel like the War Doctor isn't "not the Doctor" enough for the Doctors to bury any memory of him and never mention him. Destroying Gallifrey is presented as his great crime/secret, which doesn't make much sense since the Doctor openly admitted to destroying the Time Lords before. I personally would have preferred Sir John Hurt as being a secret incarnation BEFORE the Doctor, predating William Hartnell, but that would have led to an entirely different story. I enjoy the episode we got, but I think the concept of a secret incarnation, which is really cool, was a bit wasted. If you're looking for a secret incarnation before Hartnell then I point you to this very controversial figure in Doctor Who fiction: tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Other
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jan 23, 2016 11:24:06 GMT
I like this thread a lot. I am mostly in agreement with Wolfie. I think War was a huge misstep in the Doctor Who canon. It robbed McGann the chance to show how Eight has grown and matured with time. His Doctor has been put through some incredibly difficult and dark times and is no longer the happy romantic he started out as in the the TV Movie (and I've only heard his audios; I've never even read his novels). But through it all he has shown courage and has never run from his responsibility. For those not familiar with Eight in anything except the TV movie, this change could have been handled well within the confines of DOTD, however Moffat chose not to. And I won't even go into the damage DOTD does to the RTD era. Because of this I had originally avoided all media regarding War. I did not read Engines of War. But because I do love John Hurt as an actor and suffer from Big Finish addiction, I went ahead and purchased The War Doctor boxset. I loved it. So now I am completely conflicted. Every single objection I have to War is still valid and I have not changed my mind regarding this. However I plan on buying more of the boxsets. In fact, I find myself looking forward to them. I fear I may end up with some sort of split personality disorder. Firstly, good to know others are finding this an interesting discussion I completely understand where you are coming from (and of course as I got into BF/ the EDAs after NOTD I'm naturally rather biased!), but I still stand by my argument, Moffat wouldn't have been able to use (and probably wasn't really knowledgeable about) McGann's Audios or Books as a hard reference point, I just think creating the War Doctor made for a more interesting story, and 8's ending in NOTD for me seems much more in keeping with his general character as first established in the TV Movie and in the BF audios. I do get you point about responsibility, but to me 8 had always seemed one of the least likely to fight in a war, I personally prefer the comprise NOTD showed, him acting as a firefighter of sorts, trying to help those caught in the crossfire rather than fighting at the front, I don't interpret his neutrality as cowardice, rather to me it symbolizes him rising above all the tragedy and darkness, the responsibility being him trying to save lives whilst holding onto his morals, rather than end lives whilst casting away his history. I sympathize with the conflicted part-I'm not overly keen on Tennant's Doctor but Donna is one of my favourite companions so I'm very on the fence as to whether I should get the limited edition 10DA set...
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jan 23, 2016 12:28:13 GMT
I think all we need to see to alleviate that bug is a breaking point. An event, or series of events, that show just how despicable the Time Lords have become, to the point where the Doctor couldn't stand to fight with them (similarly to how we haven't seen War very un-Doctor-ly so far). The Eighth Doctor fights for people all the time, so it would have to be some pretty atrocious stuff. But I agree his role as a fire-fighter, or medic or whatever, is a great role, providing that context.
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