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Post by cyberandzinc on Apr 4, 2016 11:22:17 GMT
Season 2 is just generally very memorable for me. Again, at the risk of sounding repetitive, I absolutely loved this episode.
I like how Fountain made Jekyll the sort of antagonist of this episode instead of Hyde, who isn't necessarily innocent either. I usually really like this kind of twists where the story get to really explore the potentials of the characters and I do like it here. The only problem I have with the changes is that Hyde becomes this psychopathic gentleman instead of the savage from the novel. I don't know what to make of it yet. I guess it makes the reveal a little bit more surprising and also perhaps makes him easier to empathise with? Though it also contrasts with his callousness wrt his family.
Speaking of his family, Montague's four-year-old son is just so creepy. This episode is definitely up there with Enigma and Human Remains on my list of the creepiest episodes in The Confessions of Dorian Gray.
I didn't even realise there were only two actors in this episode (three if you count the boy, who, I guess, is not Alex?). Definitely a credit to the actors and the writer.
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Post by elkawho on Apr 5, 2016 1:54:38 GMT
And it really is wonderful. I thought this was a tremendous performance by Hugh Ross. Alex almost seemed like a guest star in his own series in this one. I remember the first time I heard this I was so surprised when I realized just who Dorian was talking to.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 5, 2016 12:55:43 GMT
This is a big return to form - I like it a lot . I like how Fountain made Jekyll the sort of antagonist of this episode instead of Hyde, who isn't necessarily innocent either. I usually really like this kind of twists where the story get to really explore the potentials of the characters and I do like it here. I think the hint is in Montague/Hyde's comment about their own immortal game. The implication is that they are both capable of good/evil and he isn't sure which is which anymore (or something similar). I also had the impression that the boy at the end was actually his son and he hadn't died in the fire ... "My turn for Hyde", different from "My turn to hide". Cheers Tony
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Post by cyberandzinc on Apr 6, 2016 4:27:07 GMT
I also had the impression that the boy at the end was actually his son and he hadn't died in the fire ... "My turn for Hyde", different from "My turn to hide It was a big hint as well when Dorian said nothing natural could survive that blaze. I guess it's safe to say Montague's son is likely to be one of his experiments. At the end of this episode, there's another boy, an older boy, saying the same thing, "It's my turn for Hyde." That part gave me a sort of flashback-ish impression, as if it's Dorian's memory of his childhood, instead of a flashforward, which would probably mean the Montague boy grew up. I guess I got that impression from when Dorian says he is playing his own immortal game.
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 7, 2016 17:06:16 GMT
Going outside my comfort zone and exploring ranges outside of Doctor Who has introduced me to a lot of great writers but I was already quite a fan of Nev Fountain's before listening to The Immortal Game. Although this story did feel quite different from some of his Who stories I had heard, I still really love this story. Admittedly there are very few Dorian stories I don't love to some degree so it would be surprising if I didn't like a Dorian story from Nev Fountain. As for the story itself right away it reminded me of Jekyll & Hyde, at least the themes of that story. I didn't actually expect Montague and his brother to be Jekyll & Hyde. On the surface level they don't fit the archetypes of who Jekyll & Hyde are but I think that actually makes the reveal all the more interesting. First of all it's important that Montague and his brother are never together in the same scene starting with that lovely chess scene. Note this is the Immortal Game the episode refers to. Although it also reminded me of the wonderful chess scene between the Knight and Death in the Seventh Seal. Isn't chess the perfect metaphor for the struggle between good and evil & life and death? As for the Montagues, of course it is interesting that on the surface Hyde comes off as the gentleman and Jekyll the more deranged character. We also don't find out until the end that Jekyll in this story is also a Doctor. But Jekyll is the one shouting about morality, good vs evil and obsessed with repressing evil urges. This actually DOES fit Jekyll's character much more than Hyde. Hyde would be like Montague not seeing things as right or wrong, good or evil. Whereas we don't see Hyde giving into urges like the Hyde of the novella. The fact that he sees no evil in the world means his philosophy is that one can do anything (including experimenting on fellow human beings) as long as it is the accepted custom. It's an extreme version of cultural relativism. But taking apart Montague's views of good and evil it seems it's just an excuse to do whatever one wants. As for the hide and seek game, Jekyll is supposed to rhyme with seek. So it's a lovely play on words and I suppose when Montague's son is playing this it's another hint to what this story really is. And of course the ending that calls back to this is suitably chilling. As for Dorian he's infatuated by Montague. He's also easily influenced by Montague's words on good and evil. While I agree with Dorian that Jekyll's words came off as sanctimonious and well lets face it a little crazed, it is interesting that he comes to accept what Montague says about good and evil fairly easily. Novel Dorian and Novel Hyde have some similarities in fact. But in this case I am not sure if Dorian can see past Montague's gentlemanly veneer and his own fascination. The first time listening I did wonder if Montague could have experimented on Dorian. But the fact that Montague says I don't think the experiment would have made any difference is even more telling. Is Montague/Hyde saying that Dorian already doesn't know the difference between right or wrong because he doesn't have a soul? I personally don't believe that to be true but it is interesting food for thought. However I think it is important to me at least that Dorian IS responsible for his own choices and actions. As Dorian says in the end he is very much playing his own immortal game but that game is affected by his free will otherwise there is no point to the game itself. And on another note while Oscar Wilde exists in Dorian's world I guess Robert Louis Stevenson does not.
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 8, 2016 1:04:13 GMT
Random thought which I forgot but I think this is the first story (correct me if I am wrong) where we learn that Dorian can get sick.
His wounds heal right away (which we also see in this episode) but he has to live through a bout of food poisoning. I guess because injuries can lead to scars and permanent changes whereas sickness just makes you very uncomfortable.
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Post by Trace on Apr 8, 2016 4:04:41 GMT
Ah what to say about this gem that hasn't already been said? I, too, remember the first time I heard it--and being surprised at the big reveal. I don't think I so much as suspected who the men really were. Of course, this time around I knew, so I focused more on the overall themes--good and evil, or rather, evil, and the decision NOT to do evil, simply because it's too much trouble. So very interesting. And, the metaphor of the chess game for Dorian's immortal game Clearly, there are times in Dorian's long life where he's struggled with his misdeeds...where his darker nature wins the game, and his moral compass (which may or may not be an actual soul) turns over the chess board and scatters the pieces in despair.
I agree about the little boy being very creepy. I didn't have the same reaction as cyberandzinc--that it was a second boy (an older boy) at the end, saying "it's my turn for Hyde". I thought it was the same one.
Love Nev's work, this one and then "The Darkest Shadow" for the "Dark Shadows" range. I'm glad that one will be coming up soon in the "DS" group listen--and Dorian makes a cameo appearance there.
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 11, 2016 0:45:36 GMT
Almost Monday so moving on to Running Away With You; the finale to a very strong Series 2 written by Scott Handcock and guest starring Lalla Ward.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 13, 2016 18:48:43 GMT
It's been a while since I heard this one.
OMG, I got 2/3 the way through before I realised it was THAT episode!
Now I remember, now I remember the shock on hearing it the first time. I remember the talk on the old forum begging Scott not to let this be the last ever, I remember the strength of feeling from Trace, myself and others about how it had to continue.
As I listen to the music at the end of this story ... I remember, and my eyes weep!
I can't put anything else into words at the moment, it's brilliant, brilliant!
Cheers
Tony
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 13, 2016 22:05:38 GMT
It's been a while since I heard this one. OMG, I got 2/3 the way through before I realised it was THAT episode! Now I remember, now I remember the shock on hearing it the first time. I remember the talk on the old forum begging Scott not to let this be the last ever, I remember the strength of feeling from Trace, myself and others about how it had to continue. As I listen to the music at the end of this story ... I remember, and my eyes weep! I can't put anything else into words at the moment, it's brilliant, brilliant! Cheers Tony You actually answered a question I've been wondering did people know this wasn't the end at the time? Because with hindsight knowing there is more I can see it going either way. I feel it could very well be an ending but I think it also left things open for possibly more. I wonder if Scott knew for sure there would be more at this point. Of course I have a lot more to say but it is interesting that this ending is somewhat similar to the novel's. Except in the novel Dorian of course really does die where in this story he's still "alive" just a part of the painting. Though I wonder how I would have felt if I didn't know there was more. I am sure I would have been going crazy as well.
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Post by omega on Apr 14, 2016 0:09:33 GMT
It's been a while since I heard this one. OMG, I got 2/3 the way through before I realised it was THAT episode! Now I remember, now I remember the shock on hearing it the first time. I remember the talk on the old forum begging Scott not to let this be the last ever, I remember the strength of feeling from Trace, myself and others about how it had to continue. As I listen to the music at the end of this story ... I remember, and my eyes weep! I can't put anything else into words at the moment, it's brilliant, brilliant! Cheers Tony You actually answered a question I've been wondering did people know this wasn't the end at the time? Because with hindsight knowing there is more I can see it going either way. I feel it could very well be an ending but I think it also left things open for possibly more. I wonder if Scott knew for sure there would be more at this point. Of course I have a lot more to say but it is interesting that this ending is somewhat similar to the novel's. Except in the novel Dorian of course really does die whether in this story he's still "alive" just a part of the painting. Though I wonder how I would have felt if I didn't know there was more. I am sure I would have been going to crazy too. There were always stories to be told, but at the time this was released we all assumed that 2012 was where Dorian's story ended. Of course series three gave Dorian a way to live on beyond that having encounters, but back in August 2013 we weren't aware of that.
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 14, 2016 0:41:04 GMT
There were always stories to be told, but at the time this was released we all assumed that 2012 was where Dorian's story ended. Of course series three gave Dorian a way to live on beyond that having encounters, but back in August 2013 we weren't aware of that. So you knew there was more Dorian the series but thought it was the end of Dorian's character in the present?
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Post by Trace on Apr 14, 2016 1:02:05 GMT
It's been a while since I heard this one. OMG, I got 2/3 the way through before I realised it was THAT episode! Now I remember, now I remember the shock on hearing it the first time. I remember the talk on the old forum begging Scott not to let this be the last ever, I remember the strength of feeling from Trace, myself and others about how it had to continue. As I listen to the music at the end of this story ... I remember, and my eyes weep! I can't put anything else into words at the moment, it's brilliant, brilliant! Cheers Tony I remember that, Tony! The deep concern we had about Dorian's future in the present with the arrival of this (flawless) audio. i can't recall at present though whether we knew there was a series 3 or not...I want to say that we did not, but I'm going back to the old forum and read old posts! Your comment made me want to revisit the love we all felt for the Dorian range in its infancy and as it continued. I'm so thankful for this group listenthru. More on Running Away With You in a day or two.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 8:47:39 GMT
I can tell you now, when we made series two, the only thing we expected after Running Away With You was The Prime of Deacon Brodie (which had been recorded in the same block). So there was a weird sense of, having written an ending - which at that point was an ending - of then coming back with a flashback story.
Hence, The Mayfair Monster quickly got commissioned. Again, we knew if we were ending, we'd need something unique to underline it - and a story written by Dorian himself would have done that.
Series three wasn't greenlit until - and I've just checked the dates - 31st January 2014. So yes, Running Away With You could very much have been, and was written as, the end.
S x
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 14, 2016 10:30:56 GMT
Thanks for your insight Scott it's always very interesting and appreciated. I love that we can get behind the scene information for the group listen.
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 14, 2016 10:54:34 GMT
I can tell you now, when we made series two, the only thing we expected after Running Away With You was The Prime of Deacon Brodie (which had been recorded in the same block). So there was a weird sense of, having written an ending - which at that point was an ending - of then coming back with a flashback story. Hence, The Mayfair Monster quickly got commissioned. Again, we knew if we were ending, we'd need something unique to underline it - and a story written by Dorian himself would have done that. Series three wasn't greenlit until - and I've just checked the dates - 31st January 2014. So yes, Running Away With You could very much have been, and was written as, the end. S x And once more I get to shake my fist at you Mr Handcock *shakes fist* Cheers Tony
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2016 11:38:45 GMT
What will be interesting is comparing Running Away With You - an ending nobody was expecting - with Ever After in October, a very public final episode...
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Post by acousticwolf on Apr 14, 2016 11:52:47 GMT
What will be interesting is comparing Running Away With You - an ending nobody was expecting - with Ever After in October, a very public final episode... To be honest, I don't even want to think about that! Running Away With You was (is) superb and while the ending came right out of nowhere, it was (as much as it pains me to say) a fantastic end. I'm just glad we managed to get more stories - thank you Scott (and Alex) for allowing it to happen and I hope (really hope) that October is not the end ... even if it has been prepared for . Cheers Tony
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Post by kimalysong on Apr 14, 2016 12:39:04 GMT
What will be interesting is comparing Running Away With You - an ending nobody was expecting - with Ever After in October, a very public final episode... I am both looking forward to and super sad about the ending. May have to take a mental health day off work the day I plan to listen to that story because I fear I will be emotionally compromised.
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Post by qirunwei on Apr 15, 2016 14:40:17 GMT
Hi. I'm quite new to the fandom since I only started listening to TCoDG like, a month ago? I came here because I was trying to find inspirations for a fanfic that I'm attempting to write and a friend sent me the link to here. I must say it's amazing to see so many people engaging in discussion about TCoDG and how much it is loved! Back to the point, when I started listening I was really interested in Toby and jumped ahead to listen to all the episodes that he appears in (and I know I shouldn't really do that) which means I kind of knew about what happened in 2.5. But then what caught me by surprise was the fact that he would choose death at this specific point of his life. I understand there is the aim to save Constanze (and maybe Scott's need to end the show at that point), but still I can't stop wondering why? Why now? Why not earlier or later? Was the thought always there and the events in 2.5 merely an opportunity or was there any other reasons that acted as motive? ?
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