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Post by mark687 on May 6, 2019 13:58:33 GMT
War Machines and The Smugglers (LC Recon)
(These still stand up really well)
Tenth Planet
(The winds of change begin to blow)
Twice Upon A Time
(Its a shame just how much the shine the awkwardly out of character the so called " Gender Humour" takes off this)
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 3:20:53 GMT
War Machines and The Smugglers (LC Recon)
(These still stand up really well)
Tenth Planet
(The winds of change begin to blow)
Twice Upon A Time
(Its a shame just how much the shine the awkwardly out of character the so called " Gender Humour" takes off this)
Regards
mark687
Yeah, I still wince a little at that part of Twice Upon a Time. It feels a bit like suddenly making the Fourth Doctor racist to show how the present-day show has worked past that... Failing to take into account that was never a part of his character (and a real kick in the teeth, to boot). I can just see Barbara Wright and Sara Kingdom standing off in the corner going: "What on earth is this?" There are much better characterisations of the First Doctor out there, but I'm glad they decided to bring David Bradley over from An Adventure in Space and Time. Particularly glad he got to really flex his muscles on audio.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 9:32:05 GMT
War Machines and The Smugglers (LC Recon)
(These still stand up really well)
Tenth Planet
(The winds of change begin to blow)
Twice Upon A Time
(Its a shame just how much the shine the awkwardly out of character the so called " Gender Humour" takes off this)
Regards
mark687
Yeah, I still wince a little at that part of Twice Upon a Time. It feels a bit like suddenly making the Fourth Doctor racist to show how the present-day show has worked past that... Failing to take into account that was never a part of his character (and a real kick in the teeth, to boot). I can just see Barbara Wright and Sara Kingdom standing off in the corner going: "What on earth is this?" There are much better characterisations of the First Doctor out there, but I'm glad they decided to bring David Bradley over from An Adventure in Space and Time. Particularly glad he got to really flex his muscles on audio. It never bothered me and hasn’t until you said about the fourth doctor being racist. The thought of that made me wince and angry, it made me feel like it was disrespecting his character and legacy and i suddenly get why everyone hated the first doctors characterisation in Twice Upon A Time. Funny how sometimes things just click into place.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2019 10:47:15 GMT
Yeah, I still wince a little at that part of Twice Upon a Time. It feels a bit like suddenly making the Fourth Doctor racist to show how the present-day show has worked past that... Failing to take into account that was never a part of his character (and a real kick in the teeth, to boot). I can just see Barbara Wright and Sara Kingdom standing off in the corner going: "What on earth is this?" There are much better characterisations of the First Doctor out there, but I'm glad they decided to bring David Bradley over from An Adventure in Space and Time. Particularly glad he got to really flex his muscles on audio. It never bothered me and hasn’t until you said about the fourth doctor being racist. The thought of that made me wince and angry, it made me feel like it was disrespecting his character and legacy and i suddenly get why everyone hated the first doctors characterisation in Twice Upon A Time. Funny how sometimes things just click into place. That's exactly it, yes! And it's not just the First Doctor, we're also talking about women who lead rebellions against literal eldritch gods, who pitted their minds against beings that could get inside their heads and win. The Edge of Destruction, The Keys of Marinus, The Aztecs, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, The Sensorites, even The Space Museum, they all hinge on a female lead being strong enough to overcome a multitude of obstacles under their own power. Barbara overcame the Brains of Morphoton and solved who was responsible for kidnapping Susan in Millennius. If not for Vicki, the TARDIS would've never left Xeros, she was the one who opened the armoury and changed their fate. Sara went back for the Doctor and helped him back to the TARDIS with the Time Destructor. There is a wonderful history of clever women there. It isn't perfect, absolutely, but it is there. To have the First Doctor laugh them off for a joke feels not only out-of-character, but it doesn't feel accurate to the era it's trying to represent either. I mean, when he's apologising to her in Edge of Destruction, he mentions that they have to look after her. She's very valuable. The same way he described the TARDIS. Moreover, when they were trapped in Mexico, he trusted her to keep them all alive while he found out a solution. It was her task to keep the Aztecs busy, which she does stunningly (my favourite resolution to a cliffhanger is still her pulling a knife on Tlotoxl). Why not show that Doctor Who has always had this, even in the early days? That seems much more exciting and fun, a much better way to homage the long history of the show because it says: you can't hide behind the past, even the past was capable of doing this. That is a tradition worth maintaining.
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Post by number13 on May 7, 2019 17:41:26 GMT
There is a wonderful history of clever women there. It isn't perfect, absolutely, but it is there. To have the First Doctor laugh them off for a joke feels not only out-of-character, but it doesn't feel accurate to the era it's trying to represent either. I mean, when he's apologising to her in Edge of Destruction, he mentions that they have to look after her. She's very valuable. The same way he described the TARDIS. Moreover, when they were trapped in Mexico, he trusted her to keep them all alive while he found out a solution. It was her task to keep the Aztecs busy, which she does stunningly (my favourite resolution to a cliffhanger is still her pulling a knife on Tlotoxl). Agree so much about the First Doctor's sexism in TUAT, it is so out-of-character and considering everyone in TUAT (including the writer) is only there because of the quality of the early years which made Who a TV legend, it's ungrateful to the Hartnell Doctor and his era as well as simply wrong and misleading about his character and that era of the show. On the TUAT thread I noticed you compared it with the Fifth Doctor's behaviour in 'Four to Doomsday': The only thing that left a bad taste in the mouth was the First Doctor's sexism, it was phenomenally out-of-character and was a real gut-punch every time it was brought up. It felt as uncomfortable as the Fifth Doctor suddenly becoming a colonial bigot in Four to Doomsday (a man who thinks only the Greeks could be civilised and that he could "bowl a very good Chinaman"). I've just been rewatching 'Four to Doomsday' on my S18+19 blu-rays quest and the 'bowl a very good Chinaman' comment isn't even the only "joke" at the expense of the Chinese characters. When Lin Futu first introduces himself with 'I am Lin Futu', the Doctor's reply is ' I'd never have guessed it. You look in the best of health.' To me the Doctor's two (rather random) statements don't seem so accidentally placed and if so the combined result would obviously be mocking Lin's name as sounding (to the Doctor) like an injury or illness. In-Universe I put down both these events to the Doctor's post-regenerative synapses still being a bit wonky. But apart from those two "jokes" I don't think the Fifth Doctor is seriously out of character. He doesn't make any assumptions about any of the ethnic groups and it's only Bigon, not the Doctor, who mentions civilisation, saying 'In a civilised world, there is no substitute for democracy.' ('Civilised' is relative of course, Bigon's Athenian version of democracy excluded all women, all non-Athenians - and all the people they kept as slaves.)
EDIT: Oops, double post. Deleted.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 0:57:21 GMT
There is a wonderful history of clever women there. It isn't perfect, absolutely, but it is there. To have the First Doctor laugh them off for a joke feels not only out-of-character, but it doesn't feel accurate to the era it's trying to represent either. I mean, when he's apologising to her in Edge of Destruction, he mentions that they have to look after her. She's very valuable. The same way he described the TARDIS. Moreover, when they were trapped in Mexico, he trusted her to keep them all alive while he found out a solution. It was her task to keep the Aztecs busy, which she does stunningly (my favourite resolution to a cliffhanger is still her pulling a knife on Tlotoxl). Agree so much about the First Doctor's sexism in TUAT, it is so out-of-character and considering everyone in TUAT (including the writer) is only there because of the quality of the early years which made Who a TV legend, it's ungrateful to the Hartnell Doctor and his era as well as simply wrong and misleading about his character and that era of the show. On the TUAT thread I noticed you compared it with the Fifth Doctor's behaviour in 'Four to Doomsday': The only thing that left a bad taste in the mouth was the First Doctor's sexism, it was phenomenally out-of-character and was a real gut-punch every time it was brought up. It felt as uncomfortable as the Fifth Doctor suddenly becoming a colonial bigot in Four to Doomsday (a man who thinks only the Greeks could be civilised and that he could "bowl a very good Chinaman"). I've just been rewatching 'Four to Doomsday' on my S18+19 blu-rays quest and the 'bowl a very good Chinaman' comment isn't even the only "joke" at the expense of the Chinese characters. When Lin Futu first introduces himself with 'I am Lin Futu', the Doctor's reply is ' I'd never have guessed it. You look in the best of health.' To me the Doctor's two (rather random) statements don't seem so accidentally placed and if so the combined result would obviously be mocking Lin's name as sounding (to the Doctor) like an injury or illness. In-Universe I put down both these events to the Doctor's post-regenerative synapses still being a bit wonky. But apart from those two "jokes" I don't think the Fifth Doctor is seriously out of character. He doesn't make any assumptions about any of the ethnic groups and it's only Bigon, not the Doctor, who mentions civilisation, saying 'In a civilised world, there is no substitute for democracy.' ('Civilised' is relative of course, Bigon's Athenian version of democracy excluded all women, all non-Athenians - and all the people they kept as slaves.)
EDIT: Oops, double post. Deleted.
No, you're quite correct. I'd say to my younger self ( said to self, self I said) that he's failed to take into account the last episode where the Doctor enlists Lin Futu's aid as readily as any of the others. I'd definitely put it down to probems with the narrative itself rather than Five's character, specifically. There's a Planet of Hats scenario going on here. The Grecians are dedicated solely to mathematics, the Chinese solely to computers, the Australians solely to agriculture... The Greek gladiators... The Asiatic jokes stick out more so having grown up with the Target novelisation where Terrance Dicks deliberately played them (and a few other assumptions) down quite a bit. There's an element of naivity to the narrative itself which jars. I'll take the one I know the most keenly: Tegan's conversation with Aboriginal Australian, Kurkitji. Credit to Terrance Dudley, it is an Aboriginal name. Credit to Janet Fielding, she did get them to replace the cod dialogue with a proper language. Unfortunately, it's from near Darwin, which is long and far away from the people who inhabited Brisbane. It's unlikely that Tegan would know the dialect, let alone the language, because of the regional differences. The centuries of lingual shift in the interim would've sealed it. The description of the Dreaming too, as a form of afterlife or Heaven, is also inaccurate. It's a more complicated state which exists before, during and after life; an extension of their people's existence. And for some reason, the TARDIS doesn't translate like it does the other ancient languages, which is just odd. Nowadays, I think it would be rewritten substantially. If you wanted a moment to show off Tegan's Australianness (for want of a better word), it could be a normal conversation in English, but about topics relating to current issues in the 1980s. Land rights would've been a big one. With the benefit of hindsight, it would've tallied well with Jim Hagan's efforts in 1980 at the United Nations in Geneva. First Aboriginal Australian to do so.
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Post by Whovitt on May 8, 2019 10:56:29 GMT
War Machines and The Smugglers (LC Recon)
(These still stand up really well)
Tenth Planet
(The winds of change begin to blow)
Twice Upon A Time
(Its a shame just how much the shine the awkwardly out of character the so called " Gender Humour" takes off this)
Regards
mark687
I was actually looking at the possibility of doing the "Extended Tenth Planet" run (something I've been looking at in my spare time). I've looked at which audios tie directly into the TV show (the Companion Chronicles' The Locked Room with The Tenth Planet: Episode 3, for example) and extrapolated to build the "extended" run-up to the First Doctor's regeneration. We start back as far back as The Daleks' Master Plan. After that, we slot in the Oliver Harper trilogy of Companion Chronicles. We then progress as normal through to The Smugglers, at which point we dip back into the CC and listen to The Bonfire of the Vanities and The Plague of Dreams. Then we sidestep to the Short Trips for the story Falling, which has Polly describing how they're about to go to the South Pole. At this point we listen to The War to End All Wars and The Founding Fathers so that we're "chronologically up to date" with Steven. From here, we watch the first three episodes of The Tenth Planet, swapping to The Locked Room, then back to TTP: Episode 4 up to the TARDIS crew leaving the Cybermen's spaceship, before finally dipping into Twice Upon a Time before cutting back to Ben and Polly outside the TARDIS trying to get in. You could try and slot The War to End All Wars and The Founding Fathers into chronological First Doctor placement, but as it's the framing story we're most concerned with I think it's better to leave them until just before TTP (though that's up to the individual viewer's/listener's discretion). Not sure when I'll have time to do this, but I'd love to give it a try
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 8:22:47 GMT
War Machines and The Smugglers (LC Recon)
(These still stand up really well)
Tenth Planet
(The winds of change begin to blow)
Twice Upon A Time
(Its a shame just how much the shine the awkwardly out of character the so called " Gender Humour" takes off this)
Regards
mark687
I was actually looking at the possibility of doing the "Extended Tenth Planet" run (something I've been looking at in my spare time). I've looked at which audios tie directly into the TV show (the Companion Chronicles' The Locked Room with The Tenth Planet: Episode 3, for example) and extrapolated to build the "extended" run-up to the First Doctor's regeneration. We start back as far back as The Daleks' Master Plan. After that, we slot in the Oliver Harper trilogy of Companion Chronicles. We then progress as normal through to The Smugglers, at which point we dip back into the CC and listen to The Bonfire of the Vanities and The Plague of Dreams. Then we sidestep to the Short Trips for the story Falling, which has Polly describing how they're about to go to the South Pole. At this point we listen to The War to End All Wars and The Founding Fathers so that we're "chronologically up to date" with Steven. From here, we watch the first three episodes of The Tenth Planet, swapping to The Locked Room, then back to TTP: Episode 4 up to the TARDIS crew leaving the Cybermen's spaceship, before finally dipping into Twice Upon a Time before cutting back to Ben and Polly outside the TARDIS trying to get in. You could try and slot The War to End All Wars and The Founding Fathers into chronological First Doctor placement, but as it's the framing story we're most concerned with I think it's better to leave them until just before TTP (though that's up to the individual viewer's/listener's discretion). Not sure when I'll have time to do this, but I'd love to give it a try It's a bit of a headtrip, but I also recommend what someone called a "historical watch order". Stories watched in order of their diachronic date, not their Doctor. The results are... Really rather cool. Like, for Earth's late 21st/early 22nd centuries, there's:
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Post by Whovitt on May 9, 2019 8:26:55 GMT
I was actually looking at the possibility of doing the "Extended Tenth Planet" run (something I've been looking at in my spare time). I've looked at which audios tie directly into the TV show (the Companion Chronicles' The Locked Room with The Tenth Planet: Episode 3, for example) and extrapolated to build the "extended" run-up to the First Doctor's regeneration. We start back as far back as The Daleks' Master Plan. After that, we slot in the Oliver Harper trilogy of Companion Chronicles. We then progress as normal through to The Smugglers, at which point we dip back into the CC and listen to The Bonfire of the Vanities and The Plague of Dreams. Then we sidestep to the Short Trips for the story Falling, which has Polly describing how they're about to go to the South Pole. At this point we listen to The War to End All Wars and The Founding Fathers so that we're "chronologically up to date" with Steven. From here, we watch the first three episodes of The Tenth Planet, swapping to The Locked Room, then back to TTP: Episode 4 up to the TARDIS crew leaving the Cybermen's spaceship, before finally dipping into Twice Upon a Time before cutting back to Ben and Polly outside the TARDIS trying to get in. You could try and slot The War to End All Wars and The Founding Fathers into chronological First Doctor placement, but as it's the framing story we're most concerned with I think it's better to leave them until just before TTP (though that's up to the individual viewer's/listener's discretion). Not sure when I'll have time to do this, but I'd love to give it a try It's a bit of a headtrip, but I also recommend what someone called a "historical watch order". Stories watched in order of their diachronic date, not their Doctor. The results are... Really rather cool. Like, for Earth's late 21st/early 22nd centuries, there's: Talk about making things complicated
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2019 9:11:25 GMT
It's a bit of a headtrip, but I also recommend what someone called a "historical watch order". Stories watched in order of their diachronic date, not their Doctor. The results are... Really rather cool. Like, for Earth's late 21st/early 22nd centuries, there's: Talk about making things complicated Eehh, it's time travel, it's in the spirit of things.
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Post by timegirl on May 9, 2019 14:40:39 GMT
Today I am watching “The Hand of Fear” as research for my entry for the Paul Spragg Memorial Contest😊
On a side note, Sarah Jane’s Addy Pandy Jumpsuit, that is all😄
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Post by tuigirl on May 12, 2019 10:36:56 GMT
Started on the "Time Meddler" DVD. This is surprisingly enjoyable. The reason I kept away from the 1st Doctor era was, that I was under the impression it was quite tedious and hard to access for someone without the nostalgia factor. I also find the 1st Doctor quite likeable, after all I have heard I expected him to be more grumpy and irritable... He also has a sense of humour and appears to be quite nice to his companions (plus I have not noted any overly sexist behaviour which was made one of the main topics in a certain Christmas special). So as first introductions go, I think that was a good choice for me to get. Looking forward to watching more tonight and of course the audio commentary with Verity Lambert.
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Post by agentten on May 12, 2019 10:49:17 GMT
Watching "Downtime". It's lovely to see The Brig, Sarah Jane, and Victoria working together in the spirit The Doctor taught them each in different ways.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 10:57:50 GMT
Watching "Downtime". It's lovely to see The Brig, Sarah Jane, and Victoria working together in the spirit The Doctor taught them each in different ways. And still fearless. One of my favourite moments is Sarah charging Rice before he can shoot Victoria in the back of the head. " Get away from her!" *bang*
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,063
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Post by ljwilson on May 12, 2019 15:26:54 GMT
Midnight, which was both creepy and a great commentary on the mob mentality against the minority.
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Post by sherlock on May 12, 2019 15:30:49 GMT
Midnight, which was both creepy and a great commentary on the mob mentality against the minority. In my new series rewatch last year, I think that was the episode that actually scared me the most. Brilliant writing and performances.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813
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Post by lidar2 on May 13, 2019 8:53:59 GMT
Just watched episode 4 of the B&W version of the Macra Terror. Definitely prefer the BW version and THB I would rather they had spent their budget on the missing scene from episode 1 that on doing it in colour.
Yes, it's great to have it back in animated form, but ... I feel like we are heading back to the 1980s when BBC video released edited versions of DW stories - movie length versions, maybe the odd line cut. Eventually around 1989/1990 the BBC "got it" and started giving the fans what they wanted, i.e. unedited versions.
Not only is there the missing scene from episode 1, but Polly's hair is meant to start off long (following directly from the Moonbase) and then gets cut short in episode 1, but we have lost this. budget was the reason given for the cuts, but I personally would much rather pay a few £ more for a faithful reconstruction and I imagine the sort of people who buy 50 year old soundtracks with new animation would as well.
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Post by timegirl on May 14, 2019 14:01:53 GMT
I just watched the second part of “The Masque of Mandragora” which was filmed in Portmeirion the same place as The Prisioner. I keep expecting Four and Sarah Jane to run into Number Six or Rover😄
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Post by timegirl on May 15, 2019 1:46:42 GMT
Rewatching The End of Time for my Paul Spragg short trip entry research. It’s one of the most ridiculous finales of Who I have ever seen but I love it 😁
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 8:36:09 GMT
The Moonbase and The Wheel in Space as a pair.
I'm not entirely certain if this is an unconventional opinion, but I think I actually prefer Wheel to Moonbase. Fittingly, because of its humanity. There's a lot of personality and warmth injected into the personnel of the Wheel. Everyone, from Zoe to Jarvis, has a distinctive personality and rapport with their fellow crewmen and the regulars. If it does have a fault, it's that it perhaps starts a bit too early, but the progression in menace is a nice one. The Loose Cannon reconstruction uses CGI to replicate some of the more action-heavy scenes of the first episode, lending a great sense of menace to the servo robot. It seems like such an innocuous thing at first, but then, so do the Cybermats. With the focus on destroying the crew, over capturing the station, it's almost like a proto-slasher film.
When the Cybermen do emerge, they're genuinely unsettling. They're rather thuggish in the Moonbase, but here... You never get the sense that the situation is beyond their control. They feel very calm. Rational. Their blunt conversion methods used on the Moon traded in for sleek, near indiscernible hypnotic suggestion. No surgery required. When they compel one of the crewmen to destroy the radio equipment, there's this intensely visceral sense of horror because we know him. He collected plants, had a fairly easygoing attitude and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It almost feels like invasion by automation. As if the Wheel got too close to a preprogrammed threshold, which triggered a subroutine that activated the invasion force.
It doesn't feel so much like the Cybermen are encroaching on the Wheel's territory, but the Wheel is encroaching on the Cybermen's territory. There's a nasty thought.
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