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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 28, 2017 0:49:44 GMT
One of the enduring complaints concerning parenting and education for the last, give or take, 20 years has been the idea of 'everyone's a winner'/'everyone's special'/'sticker just for participating'/'trophies for any place'. Some feel, and I'd be remiss if I didn't say I didn't see this, that this does not properly prepare kids and leaves them with fragile self esteem and worth if they never face their limits and mistakes.
As always, sound off on where you stand. Especially wondering from the parents among our members.
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Post by eldersensorite on Jan 28, 2017 1:26:59 GMT
I'm coming to this as someone who did get medals for participation and... honestly it never felt as good to me personally if I got something for participating rather than for winning something - it always felt like a hollow act on the adult's part, so I never really got the idea that my generation is entitled because of participation trophies, but that's just me.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 28, 2017 2:59:43 GMT
Participation trophies are great for 4,5 and 6 year olds, after that, it's time kids started learning that winners and those finishing near the top get the trophies, medals, ribbons etc.
We had 4H at school, with different color ribbons, purple was the winner, blue was a runner up or two, and green was for participation. Purple got to go to the county fair to compete against other school class winners.
As far as sports went, if you played a varsity sport for 2 years or more, the school booster club bought you a letterman's jacket, and you got a big M, for McDonald, with an embedded football, baseball, basketball etc, depending on what sports you played. The top players would get a trophy and the best athlete would get a very nice plaque.
Now this is just being a proud and bragging father, my oldest daughter was the first girl to play varsity football at her school(just up to 8th grade), and in the conference in which they played, and she played on kickoff returns, offensive line, and a little linebacker, she also led the league in girls basketball in rebounds, and played catcher on the softball team, and was on the track team. She won the bulldog award that year, which was the highest trophy given out by the school. It hangs proudly in my trophy case and she can have it when I'm dead. Just like my other daughters fan of the year award from the Greeneville Astros(she got to keep the 500 gift certificate from the jewelry store)
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Post by muckypup on Jan 28, 2017 3:10:32 GMT
I think you need to encourage but competition right or wrong has winners & losers.
But at school sports days should be competition days with prises for all activities ...races, drawings, dancing, singing, spelling, baking etc
That way everyone has a equal chance to win something, we put far to much importance on sports.
So IMO don't give prizes for turning up, just broaden the number of completions.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 28, 2017 4:08:04 GMT
I'm speaking as a teacher with 20+ years in the classroom and as a rare participant in sport and the parent of kids who have played several different sports here.
I played football (Australian Rules) for 1 year when I was 11, to see what it was like. I played one game with the team and that was as a sub. At the end of season celebrations I got a certificate for taking part. What I really envied was the trophy one of my mates had as best and fairest. As a teacher who has taken coached teams (and had them perform fairly well, I might add) to tournaments and coached kids for athletics carnivals they love getting ribbons and awards as a memento of the time they've had, but they all really want the big shields and the glory of having won. But in our events we don't award prizes beyond third or fourth place. Kids value those awards because they know they've done well, especially in races where we have up to 12 competitors. I've taught in 7 or 8 schools in two states in that time and nobody awards event prizes beyond third or fourth, except to the pre-primary kids who don't have their results counted.
As a parent my kids have received trophies and medallions for being part of the team. They like them but I've noticed that ones they really cherish are the ones they won as a reward for their efforts: my middle kid cherishes the trophy he got for his lacrosse team winning their grand final one year and my eldest loves the two MVP awards and the runner-up MVP award given during the last few years they played lacrosse. My youngest enjoyed the belts he received to show his increased mastery of the martial art he was studying (capoeira).
Participation awards - in my experience - are mostly awarded for the sake of being a souvenir of a time. My understanding is that they started being awarded at a time when participation rates in sport began to decline because of the rise of television and were used as a bribe to keep kids coming back the following year, rather than - as was my experience - making it a enjoyable experience for them. Kids know that it's a "thanks for coming" award. And it annoys me when people - mostly of the generation two or more above them - slags them off for receiving them. Kids didn't ask for them and probably wouldn't care if they didn't get them.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 28, 2017 5:07:20 GMT
I don't understand what people's problem is with participation awards. Participating is an accomplishment, and kids deserve a reward for it. You can give the winner a nicer reward (if you must) but I don't think it really matters who wins in childrens' competitions.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 28, 2017 12:12:07 GMT
When i did races or stuff at school, i didnt get anything if i didnt finish in the top 3 or anything and it drove me to work harder and earn it.
This Oh everyone's a winner, just feels like a slap in the face
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 29, 2017 0:59:59 GMT
Participation awards - in my experience - are mostly awarded for the sake of being a souvenir of a time. My understanding is that they started being awarded at a time when participation rates in sport began to decline because of the rise of television and were used as a bribe to keep kids coming back the following year, rather than - as was my experience - making it a enjoyable experience for them. Kids know that it's a "thanks for coming" award. And it annoys me when people - mostly of the generation two or more above them - slags them off for receiving them. Kids didn't ask for them and probably wouldn't care if they didn't get them. Can't recall the title, but there was a video from some business expo a while back, and this businessman complained that the youngest employees were a problem because they were the byproduct of that and thus weren't properly adjusted to trip ups and failures. |
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 29, 2017 1:12:17 GMT
Participation awards - in my experience - are mostly awarded for the sake of being a souvenir of a time. My understanding is that they started being awarded at a time when participation rates in sport began to decline because of the rise of television and were used as a bribe to keep kids coming back the following year, rather than - as was my experience - making it a enjoyable experience for them. Kids know that it's a "thanks for coming" award. And it annoys me when people - mostly of the generation two or more above them - slags them off for receiving them. Kids didn't ask for them and probably wouldn't care if they didn't get them. Can't recall the title, but there was a video from some business expo a while back, and this businessman complained that the youngest employees were a problem because they were the byproduct of that and thus weren't properly adjusted to trip ups and failures. That guy sounds like a schmuck. |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 29, 2017 1:32:46 GMT
Can't recall the title, but there was a video from some business expo a while back, and this businessman complained that the youngest employees were a problem because they were the byproduct of that and thus weren't properly adjusted to trip ups and failures. That guy sounds like a schmuck. Well, most folks think I am too, but I feel pretty much the same way as the businessman. I think the younger generation is not as prepared as it needs to be to know failure, and how to overcome failure, and I can see how the rise of participation awards, and dare I say it, soccer, at least in America, in which it teaches fairplay(and that's great) but focuses far to much on that, instead of winning and losing. It seems important to me, to learn how to deal with adversity at a younger age, instead of having to meet it for the first time when you actually go out into the real world, unprotected by parents, or teachers, or coaches etc. |
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 29, 2017 1:42:57 GMT
That guy sounds like a schmuck. Well, most folks think I am too, but I feel pretty much the same way as the businessman. I think the younger generation is not as prepared as it needs to be to know failure, and how to overcome failure, and I can see how the rise of participation awards, and dare I say it, soccer, at least in America, in which it teaches fairplay(and that's great) but focuses far to much on that, instead of winning and losing. It seems important to me, to learn how to deal with adversity at a younger age, instead of having to meet it for the first time when you actually go out into the real world, unprotected by parents, or teachers, or coaches etc. Certain members od the older generation always believe that the younger generation is lazy, entitled, and not as good as the previous generation. The truth is that we millennials are just as good as you old folks. We have experience with winning, losing, and working hard too. Participation trophies don't change that. |
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Post by Ela on Jan 29, 2017 1:59:06 GMT
Well, most folks think I am too, but I feel pretty much the same way as the businessman. I think the younger generation is not as prepared as it needs to be to know failure, and how to overcome failure, and I can see how the rise of participation awards, and dare I say it, soccer, at least in America, in which it teaches fairplay(and that's great) but focuses far to much on that, instead of winning and losing. It seems important to me, to learn how to deal with adversity at a younger age, instead of having to meet it for the first time when you actually go out into the real world, unprotected by parents, or teachers, or coaches etc. Certain members od the older generation always believe that the younger generation is lazy, entitled, and not as good as the previous generation. The truth is that we millennials are just as good as you old folks. We have experience with winning, losing, and working hard too. Participation trophies don't change that. Well said, icecreamdf. |
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jan 29, 2017 4:18:55 GMT
Well, most folks think I am too, but I feel pretty much the same way as the businessman. I think the younger generation is not as prepared as it needs to be to know failure, and how to overcome failure, and I can see how the rise of participation awards, and dare I say it, soccer, at least in America, in which it teaches fairplay(and that's great) but focuses far to much on that, instead of winning and losing. It seems important to me, to learn how to deal with adversity at a younger age, instead of having to meet it for the first time when you actually go out into the real world, unprotected by parents, or teachers, or coaches etc. Certain members od the older generation always believe that the younger generation is lazy, entitled, and not as good as the previous generation. The truth is that we millennials are just as good as you old folks. We have experience with winning, losing, and working hard too. Participation trophies don't change that. Agreeing completely: complaints about the next generation go back as far as Gilgamesh. I know plenty of whiny millennials and plenty of can-do millennials; the same is true of Gens Y, X, Boomers and Greatest Generation. Sometimes we forget that 50% of people are below average. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 6:03:25 GMT
Certain members od the older generation always believe that the younger generation is lazy, entitled, and not as good as the previous generation. The truth is that we millennials are just as good as you old folks. We have experience with winning, losing, and working hard too. Participation trophies don't change that. Agreeing completely: complaints about the next generation go back as far as Gilgamesh. I know plenty of whiny millennials and plenty of can-do millennials; the same is true of Gens Y, X, Boomers and Greatest Generation. Sometimes we forget that 50% of people are below average. Completely. I'm sure that there were plenty of people from the World Wars who thought that the generation after them were simply just sitting there and sucking up the riches they'd worked so hard for. It's that old trap of "It ain't what it was," nostalgia. I find that completely the wrong approach. Human memory is by its very nature unreliable, it was never how you remember it being. Anyway, it shouldn't be just like the old days, it should be far better than the old days. Well, most folks think I am too, but I feel pretty much the same way as the businessman. I think the younger generation is not as prepared as it needs to be to know failure, and how to overcome failure, and I can see how the rise of participation awards, and dare I say it, soccer, at least in America, in which it teaches fairplay(and that's great) but focuses far to much on that, instead of winning and losing. It seems important to me, to learn how to deal with adversity at a younger age, instead of having to meet it for the first time when you actually go out into the real world, unprotected by parents, or teachers, or coaches etc. Certain members od the older generation always believe that the younger generation is lazy, entitled, and not as good as the previous generation. The truth is that we millennials are just as good as you old folks. We have experience with winning, losing, and working hard too. Participation trophies don't change that. Personally, I remember the participation ribbons from school as being mementoes more than anything. You look at them and they remind you that you are part of a community. I didn't think of them in the polarised win/lose mentality. |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 29, 2017 6:44:03 GMT
fair enough icecreamdf But if you want to know how I think of millennials, I aint even scratched the surface yet. This may be completely wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, wont be the last, but when we talk of millennials at the vfw, we seem to agree that the current generation was predominately raised by teachers, television and the internet. Many coming from homes with just 1 parent, or 2 working parents. Many knowing how to do dang near everything available on the computer, but not having any idea how to change the oil on a car, some not even knowing how to change a tire. Paying far too much attention to folks like the Kardashians and reality tv shows, while not paying enough to learning how to use a riding mower, how to use a power saw or how to manually wash a sink full of dishes. Paying attention to all world news events, but not knowing that there's a local volunteer fire department country ham dinner. Being able to tell you what famous person passed away, but not having a clue that the person living just 2 doors down is in the hospital with cancer. Now you and everyone on here, may be the total opposite of this, and I'm telling you what I think cause I want to know if I'm wrong going by what you know, I only know what I see in my little corner of the world, and by what I pick up on the internet, news, and such, and by the people that I hang out with, which are mostly veterans even older than me, and folks I run into on the 3rd Saturday morning of the month at the local ruritan club breakfast, and folks who attend Saturday morning turkey shoots between Halloween and Christmas, I don't meet a lot of new folks other than that, I work to much, and odd hours prevent it. I do know a lot of folks from the Greeneville Astros ballgames, but we really don't talk about much more than baseball, the weather, and how they have been doing. When I actually meet a millennial, it's because they are broke down on the side of the road with a flat tire, or something like that, so like I said, I have a limited view of millennials, but you can pretty much read the view I have, from the few I know. So educate me. |
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 29, 2017 6:54:15 GMT
fair enough icecreamdf But if you want to know how I think of millennials, I aint even scratched the surface yet. This may be completely wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, wont be the last, but when we talk of millennials at the vfw, we seem to agree that the current generation was predominately raised by teachers, television and the internet. Many coming from homes with just 1 parent, or 2 working parents. Many knowing how to do dang near everything available on the computer, but not having any idea how to change the oil on a car, some not even knowing how to change a tire. Paying far too much attention to folks like the Kardashians and reality tv shows, while not paying enough to learning how to use a riding mower, how to use a power saw or how to manually wash a sink full of dishes. Paying attention to all world news events, but not knowing that there's a local volunteer fire department country ham dinner. Being able to tell you what famous person passed away, but not having a clue that the person living just 2 doors down is in the hospital with cancer. Now you and everyone on here, may be the total opposite of this, and I'm telling you what I think cause I want to know if I'm wrong going by what you know, I only know what I see in my little corner of the world, and by what I pick up on the internet, news, and such, and by the people that I hang out with, which are mostly veterans even older than me, and folks I run into on the 3rd Saturday morning of the month at the local ruritan club breakfast, and folks who attend Saturday morning turkey shoots between Halloween and Christmas, I don't meet a lot of new folks other than that, I work to much, and odd hours prevent it. I do know a lot of folks from the Greeneville Astros ballgames, but we really don't talk about much more than baseball, the weather, and how they have been doing. When I actually meet a millennial, it's because they are broke down on the side of the road with a flat tire, or something like that, so like I said, I have a limited view of millennials, but you can pretty much read the view I have, from the few I know. So educate me. Well, I will admit that I don't know shit about cars. A while ago I had a flat tire. I called my dad and he came to help me. He is (obviously) not a millenial, but he is in his 50s. With his help, we both completely failed to change the tire until a nice man at the drycleaners we were stuck by helped us. Then it turned out the spare tire was flat, and we had to call AAA. The point is that middle aged judges can be just as useless as millenial college students at times. I think a lot of the differences you are talking about are regional differences, rather than age difference. If somebody grows up in an apartment, why would they learn how to use a lawnmower or a power saw? You also have to keep in mind that operating a computer is fast becoming a more valuable skill than operating a car. It probably won't be too long before teenagers aren't taught how to drive at all anymore, because they will be used to using driverless cars. The world is changing, and millenials are ready for the new world, rather than for the world that you grew up in. Both of my parents were working from the time I was around ten. I would still say that I was raised by my parents. It is true that some kids are raised by single parents, and some parents don't have as much time to raise their children as they would like. That doesn't mean that millenials are worse than other generations. It just means they are different. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 7:09:24 GMT
fair enough icecreamdf But if you want to know how I think of millennials, I aint even scratched the surface yet. This may be completely wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, wont be the last, but when we talk of millennials at the vfw, we seem to agree that the current generation was predominately raised by teachers, television and the internet. Many coming from homes with just 1 parent, or 2 working parents. Many knowing how to do dang near everything available on the computer, but not having any idea how to change the oil on a car, some not even knowing how to change a tire. Paying far too much attention to folks like the Kardashians and reality tv shows, while not paying enough to learning how to use a riding mower, how to use a power saw or how to manually wash a sink full of dishes. Paying attention to all world news events, but not knowing that there's a local volunteer fire department country ham dinner. Being able to tell you what famous person passed away, but not having a clue that the person living just 2 doors down is in the hospital with cancer. Now you and everyone on here, may be the total opposite of this, and I'm telling you what I think cause I want to know if I'm wrong going by what you know, I only know what I see in my little corner of the world, and by what I pick up on the internet, news, and such, and by the people that I hang out with, which are mostly veterans even older than me, and folks I run into on the 3rd Saturday morning of the month at the local ruritan club breakfast, and folks who attend Saturday morning turkey shoots between Halloween and Christmas, I don't meet a lot of new folks other than that, I work to much, and odd hours prevent it. I do know a lot of folks from the Greeneville Astros ballgames, but we really don't talk about much more than baseball, the weather, and how they have been doing. When I actually meet a millennial, it's because they are broke down on the side of the road with a flat tire, or something like that, so like I said, I have a limited view of millennials, but you can pretty much read the view I have, from the few I know. So educate me. Well, I know millennials who are working three jobs simultaneously just to keep the apartments they live in. I know millennials who know how to change the oil in a car precisely because of what they've learnt on the internet. I know millennials who are out on the street protesting in marches because rather than just sit around and do nothing, they'd prefer instead to stand up and be counted as people with just as much right to voice their concerns as the generations before and after them. I know millennials who volunteer at vets, who volunteer at soup kitchens, who volunteer at charities, who volunteer at school functions. I know millennials who go to country homes as paramedics and treat men with gutshot or who have tried to set their children on fire. I know millennials who have talked down suicidal peers with ropes around their necks who couldn't take life anymore. I know millennials who have worked on hospital ships in Africa, who have travelled to Russia, who teach in Japan, who sail boats in Italy. I know millennials who have authored published novels, screenplays, artworks and songs. So, the view you have gathered of that generation and presumably, the generations that follow them are sorely lacking in some crucial details. If this perspective is the very best that your little corner of the world has to offer, then sadly you've been led astray -- it's a very poor one. Everything is shades of grey. Nothing can ever be just one way or the other. |
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 29, 2017 7:14:23 GMT
fair enough icecreamdf But if you want to know how I think of millennials, I aint even scratched the surface yet. This may be completely wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, wont be the last, but when we talk of millennials at the vfw, we seem to agree that the current generation was predominately raised by teachers, television and the internet. Many coming from homes with just 1 parent, or 2 working parents. Many knowing how to do dang near everything available on the computer, but not having any idea how to change the oil on a car, some not even knowing how to change a tire. Paying far too much attention to folks like the Kardashians and reality tv shows, while not paying enough to learning how to use a riding mower, how to use a power saw or how to manually wash a sink full of dishes. Paying attention to all world news events, but not knowing that there's a local volunteer fire department country ham dinner. Being able to tell you what famous person passed away, but not having a clue that the person living just 2 doors down is in the hospital with cancer. Now you and everyone on here, may be the total opposite of this, and I'm telling you what I think cause I want to know if I'm wrong going by what you know, I only know what I see in my little corner of the world, and by what I pick up on the internet, news, and such, and by the people that I hang out with, which are mostly veterans even older than me, and folks I run into on the 3rd Saturday morning of the month at the local ruritan club breakfast, and folks who attend Saturday morning turkey shoots between Halloween and Christmas, I don't meet a lot of new folks other than that, I work to much, and odd hours prevent it. I do know a lot of folks from the Greeneville Astros ballgames, but we really don't talk about much more than baseball, the weather, and how they have been doing. When I actually meet a millennial, it's because they are broke down on the side of the road with a flat tire, or something like that, so like I said, I have a limited view of millennials, but you can pretty much read the view I have, from the few I know. So educate me. Well, I know millennials who are working three jobs simultaneously just to keep the apartments they live in. I know millennials who know how to change the oil in a car precisely because of what they've learnt on the internet. I know millennials who are out on the street protesting in marches because rather than just sit around and do nothing, they'd prefer instead to stand up and be counted as people with just as much right to voice their concerns as the generations before and after them. I know millennials who volunteer at vets, who volunteer at soup kitchens, who volunteer at charities, who volunteer at school functions. I know millennials who go to country homes as paramedics and treat men with gutshot or who have tried to set their children on fire. I know millennials who have talked down suicidal peers with ropes around their necks who couldn't take life anymore. I know millennials who have worked on hospital ships in Africa, who have travelled to Russia, who teach in Japan, who sail boats in Italy. I know millennials who have authored published novels, screenplays, artworks and songs. So, the view you have gathered of that generation and presumably, the generations that follow them are sorely lacking in some crucial details. If this perspective is the very best that your little corner of the world has to offer, then sadly you've been led astray -- it's a very poor one. Everything is shades of grey. Nothing can ever be just one way or the other. Just out of curiosity, do you actually know all of these people, or do you just know of them? Either way, its very impressive. |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 29, 2017 7:17:45 GMT
I never said they were worse than the previous generation. No generation ahead of mine, that I have ever heard about, wished for the following generations to fail, but like mine, they worried about the change that they could see happening in the next generation. My dad can grow anything from a cucumber to grapes, and has a huge garden every year, and makes the best apple butter known to man, and a lot of it I didn't take a great interest in until I got older. Now I cant learn what he knows near fast enough, and my son has started to show interest in it, cause he likes to eat too. My dad also loves westerns, old spaghetti westerns, and I cant stand most of em, but if you go in his house, it's westerns until 7, then wheel of fortune, jeopardy, then back to westerns. That's something I just probably wont pick up on. As far as changing a tire goes, I might be able to help. 2 things I got all my kids for Christmas a few years back, a hydraulic jack and a 4 way lug wrench, just ask the salesman if you need standard or metric. First check the spare tire,  (seriously, that is the first step, I learned this too by trial and error, ive taken off the tire and then found my spare was flat,) get the spare tire out of the trunk or wherever it is and set it aside. Loosen the lug nuts enough to break the seal on them before jacking the vehicle up, and with a 4 way, you can stand on it to loosen them, then find a solid spot on the underside of the vehicle, jack it up just far enough to take the tire off, remove the lug nuts, set them aside, and remove the tire, if its a full size spare you will have to jack up the vehicle just a bit more, if its a cheapo changeo little spare, then you probably wont, just stick it on and tighten up the lug nuts, again standing on the 4 way to make sure its tight. then drop the jack, clean up the mess, I'm usually done in under 10 minutes, but, ive had lots and lots and lots of practice, cause ive owned lots of bad tires. Thanks for the info mate. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 7:20:46 GMT
Well, I know millennials who are working three jobs simultaneously just to keep the apartments they live in. I know millennials who know how to change the oil in a car precisely because of what they've learnt on the internet. I know millennials who are out on the street protesting in marches because rather than just sit around and do nothing, they'd prefer instead to stand up and be counted as people with just as much right to voice their concerns as the generations before and after them. I know millennials who volunteer at vets, who volunteer at soup kitchens, who volunteer at charities, who volunteer at school functions. I know millennials who go to country homes as paramedics and treat men with gutshot or who have tried to set their children on fire. I know millennials who have talked down suicidal peers with ropes around their necks who couldn't take life anymore. I know millennials who have worked on hospital ships in Africa, who have travelled to Russia, who teach in Japan, who sail boats in Italy. I know millennials who have authored published novels, screenplays, artworks and songs. So, the view you have gathered of that generation and presumably, the generations that follow them are sorely lacking in some crucial details. If this perspective is the very best that your little corner of the world has to offer, then sadly you've been led astray -- it's a very poor one. Everything is shades of grey. Nothing can ever be just one way or the other. Just out of curiosity, do you actually know all of these people, or do you just know of them? Either way, its very impressive. I know and knew them. Some I'm still in contact with, some not. I tend to be the person who strangers start up conversations with and I know people who have led very interesting lives. A lot of them are very brave for what they do, even though they don't recognise it. In my experience, age has nothing to do with how hard you're trying. I have grandparents on both my mother's and father's side. Now, my paternal side sit in their house and do nothing all day, every day. On my maternal side, my grandmother is still ballroom dancing and playing football in the garden at eighty. Ain't got nothing to do with how long you've been on this planet. |
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(seriously, that is the first step, I learned this too by trial and error, ive taken off the tire and then found my spare was flat,) get the spare tire out of the trunk or wherever it is and set it aside. Loosen the lug nuts enough to break the seal on them before jacking the vehicle up, and with a 4 way, you can stand on it to loosen them, then find a solid spot on the underside of the vehicle, jack it up just far enough to take the tire off, remove the lug nuts, set them aside, and remove the tire, if its a full size spare you will have to jack up the vehicle just a bit more, if its a cheapo changeo little spare, then you probably wont, just stick it on and tighten up the lug nuts, again standing on the 4 way to make sure its tight. then drop the jack, clean up the mess, I'm usually done in under 10 minutes, but, ive had lots and lots and lots of practice, cause ive owned lots of bad tires.