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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 31, 2017 23:51:55 GMT
Where do you stand on the topic of censorship, political correctness and other forms of 'proper' in popular culture and, more specifically, media..
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 31, 2017 23:57:27 GMT
Bit vague It's a case by case study surely.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 0:41:52 GMT
My goodness - you do love posing questions on ethics on the forum. Certainly keeps the thinking cap on.. While related, I'd say they're three quite different things and you have to be case-by-case as there's no one answer to what propriety means much less what we think of it. And censorship for one, where all media are controlled by different bodies, is impossibly large to talk about without narrowing it down. Wheras I tend to leave ideas of propriety to Upstairs, Downstairs. I try and be polite, I hold doors open for people, I give up my seat for old people on the bus, I say please and thank you...but above that I can't say I'm proper, in any meaningful sense. To narrow the rather large concept down to one example of the forms of censorship I struggle with is in UK film. Many films have to be cut to gain an 18-rating wheras I think unless the act on screen is criminal - and I mean the act of filming it, not what the fictional narrative is doing - then I think all adults should have the right to see the material as the creators intend. The BBFC having sexually explicit scenes as an 18 is archaic - UK teens can have sex at 16 but not watch others do it in a movie for 2 more years, there's something silly there. They had the chance to revise their ratings years ago, just making a 16 rating, or lowering the 18 by a year would suffice - and chose not to despite Andreas Whittam Smith, the chairman in the late 90s, attempts to do just that. He's the reason a great many "video nasties" from the 80s were finally released uncut, and often as merely 15 ratings. He wanted to revamp the ratings but was outvoted. I'm a big film fan and appreciate such issues may seem trivial to others, but truly great work by visionaries like Alan Clarke and Ken Russell has been neglected or remains unreleased because of prudishness in censorship. And hey, I'm not snooty about it, there are loads of gory horror pics still cut to shreds that I think have little merit but their creators have as much right to have their works made legal as the worthy auteurs. When it comes to political correctness, forgive me if I just copy and paste the words of Stewart Lee, one of my great heroes of comedy, who said when a poll came out suggesting people agreed that ""Political correctness has gone mad"; "It really worries me that 84% of this audience agrees with that statement, because the kind of people that say "political correctness gone mad" are usually using that phrase as a kind of cover action to attack minorities or people that they disagree with. I'm of an age that I can see what a difference political correctness has made. When I was four years old, my grandfather drove me around Birmingham, where the Tories had just fought an election campaign saying, "if you want a n*gger for a neighbour, vote Labour," and he drove me around saying, "this is where all the n*ggers live." And I remember being at school in the early 80s and my teacher, when he read the register, instead of saying the name of the one asian boy in the class, he would say, "is the black spot in," right? And all these things have gradually been eroded by political correctness, which seems to me to be about an institutionalised politeness at its worst. And if there is some fallout from this, which means that someone in an office might get in trouble one day for saying something that someone was a bit unsure about because they couldn't decide whether it was sexist or homophobic or racist, it's a small price to pay for the massive benefits and improvements in the quality of life for millions of people that political correctness has made. It's a complete lie that allows the right, which basically controls media now, and international politics, to make people on the left who are concerned about the way people are represented look like killjoys. And I'm sick, I'm really sick-- 84% of you in this room that have agreed with this phrase, you're like those people who turn around and go, "you know who the most oppressed minorities in Britain are? White, middle-class men." You're a bunch of idiots. " - From "Heresy", BBC Radio 4, 16th May 2007 I'm not sure I could sum it up much better. It's a slight inconvenience for all so that swathes of people in society can get treated a bit better. It's absolutely true that words that were commonplace even when I was a kid are all but gone bar from the abusive thugs in society. I can't remember the last time I heard "p*ki shop" or "ordering a ch*nky", and that's gotta be to the benefit of society. Merriam-Webster defines PC as "conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated". I'm on board. What certain people, and I have to say mostly on the right, have done is tried and turn PC into a synonym for a perceived nanny state. Coffee cups telling you the contents may be hot is not an example of political correctness. Drivers being fined for using their mobiles on the road is not an example of political correctness. Not being able to bring your own electronics from home to the office without a health and safety check is not an example of political correctness. The amount of times you hear "Well, it's PC gone mad" when it's patently nothing to do with political correctness is matched only by the amount of people who misuse the word "ironic".
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 1, 2017 2:14:34 GMT
Well! That was a post and a half. I'm agreeing with most of it, and I only say "most" because I didn't grow up in a multicultural society like Davy (you can deny that if you like but it's true) and don't have the same experiences as he's listing here or in the Stewart Lee quote. But on a general level, yeah. I never heard things like "p*ki shop" or what have you but I was aware of the phenomenon and hated it. Intrinsically so. It just felt wrong.
I'm going to have a think before I write any more on this, it's a peculiar hour and I'm off to Stockholm on Sunday so I'm a bit busy!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 2:23:40 GMT
To be fair, it's a post...the "and a half" was a copy and paste, I'm taking no credit for that whole chunk.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 2:23:46 GMT
Well! That was a post and a half. I'm agreeing with most of it, and I only say "most" because I didn't grow up in a multicultural society like Davy (you can deny that if you like but it's true) and don't have the same experiences as he's listing here or in the Stewart Lee quote. But on a general level, yeah. I never heard things like "p*ki shop" or what have you but I was aware of the phenomenon and hated it. Intrinsically so. It just felt wrong. I'm going to have a think before I write any more on this, it's a peculiar hour and I'm off to Stockholm on Sunday so I'm a bit busy! Well have fun in Stockholm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 2:24:21 GMT
To be fair, it's a post...the "and a half" was a copy and paste, I'm taking no credit for that whole chunk. It is a very well put together post however, so well done on it.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 1, 2017 2:26:21 GMT
Well! That was a post and a half. I'm agreeing with most of it, and I only say "most" because I didn't grow up in a multicultural society like Davy (you can deny that if you like but it's true) and don't have the same experiences as he's listing here or in the Stewart Lee quote. But on a general level, yeah. I never heard things like "p*ki shop" or what have you but I was aware of the phenomenon and hated it. Intrinsically so. It just felt wrong. I'm going to have a think before I write any more on this, it's a peculiar hour and I'm off to Stockholm on Sunday so I'm a bit busy! Well have fun in Stockholm. It's for work.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 1, 2017 2:52:24 GMT
I used to be a big opponent of censorship and a proponent of political correctness, now I'm just a proponent of "doing the right thing."
Censorship is a tough one: it's not censorship if you get modded or have a comment deleted from a website or if a company refuses to stock your product: that's people exercising their right not to have to put up with you, rightly or wrongly. Censorship is a government deciding that your material shouldn't be in the public eye for whatever reason. Film classifications are censorship, deciding to put books and magazines in plastic wrap and restricting who can buy them because of their content is censorship. Banning things is another kettle of fish: I feel uncomfortable when I'm on playground duty and I hear little children singing songs with offensive content that they're unaware of the meaning of, but I'm not going to police their parents radio habits.
In terms of "PC" I find that censuring people for incorrect language is, as davygallagher's Stewart Lee quote suggests, mostly fine: people don't like to be offended by being called names. Currently in Australia, our government has decided that the most pressing issue facing the country is a clause in the Racial Vilification Act that allows people to be prosecuted for "stating a controversial opinion" despite there being a perfectly acceptable defense against prosecution in the next clause.
"PC gone mad" is mostly on the grounds of schools or shopping centres "banning" Christmas because of the risk of offending "non-Christmas-sy" people. The obvious defense against this is that if we celebrate Christmas in a diverse community, then we should honour the backgrounds of all members of the community and do Eid, Hanukkah, Passover, Kwanzai and all other celebrations that the community represents. So we throw our hands up and say "nope" to the lot of them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 2:53:19 GMT
Well have fun in Stockholm. It's for work. Well I hope it still goes well.
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Post by Timelord007 on Apr 1, 2017 7:01:00 GMT
If you fart in public now your accused of being political incorrect & censorship in movies annoys the hell out of me.
If i go see a Saw film i know it ain't going to be a musical set in a mill.
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Ban This
Apr 1, 2017 7:30:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 7:30:04 GMT
Just having my morning coffee so I can't match the intellectual rigour that's been achieved on this thread so far.
My feeling is that sometimes restrictions can go too far. I've been told at work we shouldn't use the word black to describe people of afro-carribean appearance as it has some sort of negative connotation to do with the slave trade for some people.
I strongly believe we need to claim words back in situations like that.
Another good example is the swastika. It is a symbol that was used by many people for cebturies and is foumd engraved in a lot of our historic buildings and monuments, yet some people are pushing for it's removal. Instead I feel we need to take it and make it a symbol for peace, or for never again letting evil flourish.
I know that we always have the potential to offend people when we speak or act, but as long as we do so with good and pure intentions and apologise if we become aware of any inadvertent offence caused, the to me that is preferable to censorship.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Apr 1, 2017 7:44:26 GMT
The PC brigade is gaining traction in Australia- some of it is laughable- I go by "common sense".. As long as you don't purposely use fair dinkum offensive words... Much like the current Racial Vilification Act here in Aust.. It was a bit vague.. How can you realistically judge what is offensive, besides the bleeding obvious.. I work with a Pakistani Muslim who prays 5 times a day, we work with people of diverse religious and sexual backgrounds- for lunch a lot of us eat bacon and non Halal food- it doesn't offend him even though he can smell it, we don't try to force him to eat our food. if anything he jokes about himself with us..
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Post by pawntake on Apr 1, 2017 8:22:20 GMT
The sweat is pouring down my brow!!!!!Heavy!!Heavy!!Heavy!!!
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 6, 2017 1:14:22 GMT
I return from Sweden...for this week anyway.
Are people still banning things? I did have to police one of my friends for the paddy phrase though.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Apr 6, 2017 7:03:39 GMT
If you fart in public now your accused of being political incorrect & censorship in movies annoys the hell out of me. If i go see a Saw film i know it ain't going to be a musical set in a mill. When I was a kid the funniest movie I had ever seen was Blazing Saddles, and it was only cut for commercials, but it still used the word spade, person of colour, chink, polock, and fagot. Some of the funniest men in the world was making fun of idiots who use these words, from a totally different world than what we live in now. I mean, one of the funniest parts was part you couldn't hear the word person of colour in anyway, when Gabby Johnson spotted Sheriff Bart comin on the rooftop he was yelling "He's a person of colour" and as he yelled, everytime the church bell bonged, so they got the sheriff is near...It was funny as hell. It was a fun movie. Just cause it was so senseless and blatantly stupid. Now, it's cut so bad on cable tv, that I cant watch it, when I want to watch it, I pop in the dvd. And that's not the only one, there are hundreds of great movies, that have words cut out of them, that totally ruin the movie, and that is not a good thing, we are letting a whole generation grow up without knowing what kind of world we used to live in. And when you forget the past, you are doomed to repeat it, and just because we know the past, doesn't mean we will be around to teach it to our great grandkids.(and now, even the past isn't written in stone, look at the movie Alamo, built on supposition and totally rewritten what we thought we knew, and still might, but our kids will only have the one view, until the next Alamo movie comes out, where Davy Crocket was black, James Bowie was gay, and William Travis was a transvestite Latino with a speech impediment. The women outnumbered the men 4 to 1 and did all the actual fighting.) Welcome to the PC world. Now, I want to explain, one day I'm going to have to tell my grandkids why the word person of colour is such a bad thing to say. But typing it on here, I don't think is a bad thing, as long as its not done with any ill intent, or toward anyone. Black folks know their past, they know their decendants were slaves, etc. etc. etc. One of the best things this new world has brought us, is the fact that, that word is no longer used near as much as it used to be, and when it is, it really gets everyone's attention, a big step forward from my youth...And though I wont be the generation that stomps out that word forever as a derogatory word, it will happen, i just hope something else doesn't take it's place, something like homophobe, which groups people together who say anything derogatory toward the LGBT community. Sometimes unfairly, sometimes not, but calling someone a homophobe because they disagree with what the LGBT community considers right or wrong, is no different than calling a black person a person of colour, or a gay man a fagot, but many folks don't see it that way....YET. They will, just takes time...
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 6, 2017 12:32:08 GMT
If you fart in public now your accused of being political incorrect & censorship in movies annoys the hell out of me. If i go see a Saw film i know it ain't going to be a musical set in a mill. i just hope something else doesn't take it's place, something like homophobe, which groups people together who say anything derogatory toward the LGBT community. Sometimes unfairly, sometimes not, but calling someone a homophobe because they disagree with what the LGBT community considers right or wrong, is no different than calling a black person a person of colour, or a gay man a fagot, but many folks don't see it that way....YET. They will, just takes time... Yeah but...no. Homophobe as a word isn't literally designed to insult or demean or degrade, and the others are. That's the difference. If you disagree with the LGBTQ community and get called a homophobe it may indeed mean that you're not and more communication is needed, possibly on both sides, but those words don't take up the same nasty space.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 14:19:10 GMT
i just hope something else doesn't take it's place, something like homophobe, which groups people together who say anything derogatory toward the LGBT community. Sometimes unfairly, sometimes not, but calling someone a homophobe because they disagree with what the LGBT community considers right or wrong, is no different than calling a black person a person of colour, or a gay man a fagot, but many folks don't see it that way....YET. They will, just takes time... Yeah but...no. Homophobe as a word isn't literally designed to insult or demean or degrade, and the others are. That's the difference. If you disagree with the LGBTQ community and get called a homophobe it may indeed mean that you're not and more communication is needed, possibly on both sides, but those words don't take up the same nasty space. This raises a very interesting point actually. Continuing efforts to diminish the presence of longtime hateful slurs as acceptable buzzwords are far and beyond commendable, but I find really curious is how a word that once was considered deeply demeaning is somehow altered into something that garners a neutral or sometimes even empowering reaction from those who it applies to. The Good Samaritan, for example. Its use nowadays to describe anyone who is charitable comes as particularly ironic given it originated in a biblical tale that inverted then traditional expectations. To the audience of the time, there were no good Samaritans, they weren't perceived in a positive light. However, nowadays that original intimation of an enemy capable of being just as kind as a friend has been replaced with the implication that perhaps all Samaritans were good. The "Good Samaritan" became the "good Samaritan" and that lack of an uppercase letter made all the difference. Time is an interesting factor with these things. Why do people scoff now when someone accuses them of being a "Commie Red"? What exactly caused that change? I reckon it'd be interesting to see the progression and what precisely caused such a slur to fall out of seriousness into silliness. A work's "PC" attitude is a great deal more relative than it first appears and I think a fundamentally important question surrounding the term "political correctness" in both its positive and negative interpretations lies in the adjective. Whose politics? In the Heat of the Night starring Sidney Poitier is a film that wouldn't be considered politically correct for the perceived audience at the time. Why? Because white plantation owner Endicott slaps black investigator Tibbs and all things being equal he responds in kind. Such a reaction was considered unheard of in the sixties, it was a scene that brokered both cheers and gasps from the audience. So, if we were to see this on a case-by-case basis, there were certain norms that needed to be questioned. In this case, the outdated notion that a human being is treated differently because of how they look rather than how they act. It's a very political idea when you consider the broader implications, but for the individual, it's also a moral one. In that phrase, the "political" is a qualifier for the substantive noun and that core idea of "correctness". Synonyms which can include propriety, quality and the distinction between right and wrong. People forget that the politics is actually secondary to the morality. And there's the "Aha" moment. The "political" runs ahead of the "correctness" like a carriage before the horses and the driving motive is lost. It becomes petty "correct politics", more about scoring points than actually making people's lives better. That's why the decision to let old hatreds die is made in the first place, to try and make things better than what they were.
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Post by newt5996 on Apr 6, 2017 18:10:39 GMT
On the topic of political correctness, it gets to a point where it devolved from someone simply being polite into an almost Orwellian language policing. (I was told I wasn't being PC and was downright homophobicbecause I said I'm not really judging Bill until we get an episode as sexuality of a new character doesn't matter) I also think that political correctness shouldn't be part of legislated politically, because of the implications on free speech. It should be if you want to act like a dick we have the right to call you a dick and not associate.
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Post by Timelord007 on Apr 6, 2017 18:51:45 GMT
I don't discriminate but if your a brat & kick off with verbal or threatening abuse i don't care what your race, religion sexuality I'm going to argue back.
I witnessed some of the worst homophobia when my cousin who sadly took his own life came out as gay, his stepdad & his stepdads friends basically formed a lynch mob & he was verbally abused with the typical 'queer & puffta' comments & even attacked physically by his stepdad who said he'd knock the puffta out of him & because these alphamales who thought going to the pub & getting hammered is what real men do attacking a man who finally had the courage to come out.
My cousin told me what they said & how his dad hit him so i went & had a word with his dad & friends, they got my message & it didn't happen again.
Sadly the damage was done & i don't think he ever emotionally recovered from that incident to the point of having a fake relationship with a woman & because he felt ashamed of who he was he committed suicide last year & it still haunts me because we had a falling out as i told him to man up & stop living his life as a phoney & accept that he's gay thinking tough love may helped but it sadly didn't & i don't think i can forgive myself or get over it.
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