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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 22:34:50 GMT
It's problematic now, of course, but at the time Talons didn't generate controversy at all. Much of the criticism only seemed to follow years later when the show was sold abroad again. It's a product of the times and still an absolutely 100% classic when viewed in the context of the times. In the UK, we had Ali Bongo - a faux-Asian magician dressed much like John Bennett was in Talons - still as a fixture of light entertainment TV at the time. The Black And White minstrel Show was a fixture of Saturday nights. It Ain't Half Hot Mum had horrible stereotypes years after Talons (and won't be repeated on the Beeb now) but was a huge hit. Only Fools And Horses is arguably the biggest sitcom the country has ever had and yet that had racist jokes and Del Boy using slurs. The list could go on and on and a lot more recent than Talons. The rather strict BBFC, the film censors, of the 1980s only rated Talons a PG - suitable for all but the very young. When submitted for DVD in the more progressive 21st century? Still a PG. While that doesn't give it a free pass, using yellowface at the time - in the UK TV industry of the 70s - was far from being an issue. I can't expect Doctor Who to be held to standards of decades later. There will no doubt be entertainment we consider acceptable now that in 40 years we will shudder at. And I think if it were produced today, they would have used an Asian actor in the role. James Hong is a favourite candidate for me, he's got a good range and his cool, stylish characters really stick in the mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 23:06:52 GMT
It's problematic now, of course, but at the time Talons didn't generate controversy at all. Much of the criticism only seemed to follow years later when the show was sold abroad again. It's a product of the times and still an absolutely 100% classic when viewed in the context of the times. In the UK, we had Ali Bongo - a faux-Asian magician dressed much like John Bennett was in Talons - still as a fixture of light entertainment TV at the time. The Black And White minstrel Show was a fixture of Saturday nights. It Ain't Half Hot Mum had horrible stereotypes years after Talons (and won't be repeated on the Beeb now) but was a huge hit. Only Fools And Horses is arguably the biggest sitcom the country has ever had and yet that had racist jokes and Del Boy using slurs. The list could go on and on and a lot more recent than Talons. The rather strict BBFC, the film censors, of the 1980s only rated Talons a PG - suitable for all but the very young. When submitted for DVD in the more progressive 21st century? Still a PG. While that doesn't give it a free pass, using yellowface at the time - in the UK TV industry of the 70s - was far from being an issue. I can't expect Doctor Who to be held to standards of decades later. There will no doubt be entertainment we consider acceptable now that in 40 years we will shudder at. And I think if it were produced today, they would have used an Asian actor in the role. James Hong is a favourite candidate for me, he's got a good range and his cool, stylish characters really stick in the mind. I'd think that goes without saying! Of course they wouldn't have a white guy in make up today. I love James Hong and his Big Trouble era self is good fan-casting, Lo Pan is a ready made Who villain.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 23:20:16 GMT
It's problematic now, of course, but at the time Talons didn't generate controversy at all. Much of the criticism only seemed to follow years later when the show was sold abroad again. It's a product of the times and still an absolutely 100% classic when viewed in the context of the times. In the UK, we had Ali Bongo - a faux-Asian magician dressed much like John Bennett was in Talons - still as a fixture of light entertainment TV at the time. The Black And White minstrel Show was a fixture of Saturday nights. It Ain't Half Hot Mum had horrible stereotypes years after Talons (and won't be repeated on the Beeb now) but was a huge hit. Only Fools And Horses is arguably the biggest sitcom the country has ever had and yet that had racist jokes and Del Boy using slurs. The list could go on and on and a lot more recent than Talons. The rather strict BBFC, the film censors, of the 1980s only rated Talons a PG - suitable for all but the very young. When submitted for DVD in the more progressive 21st century? Still a PG. While that doesn't give it a free pass, using yellowface at the time - in the UK TV industry of the 70s - was far from being an issue. I can't expect Doctor Who to be held to standards of decades later. There will no doubt be entertainment we consider acceptable now that in 40 years we will shudder at. And I think if it were produced today, they would have used an Asian actor in the role. James Hong is a favourite candidate for me, he's got a good range and his cool, stylish characters really stick in the mind. I think if it was made even five years later it would've been an Asian guy playing the role.
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Post by Ela on Jul 2, 2018 5:46:20 GMT
And I think if it were produced today, they would have used an Asian actor in the role. James Hong is a favourite candidate for me, he's got a good range and his cool, stylish characters really stick in the mind. I think if it was made even five years later it would've been an Asian guy playing the role. Possibly, but not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. There was still a lot of stereotyping going on, and tokenism was definitely a thing. Along the same lines, I remember watching and enjoying the Dumbo the Elephant Disney cartoon when I was a kid, so when I became a parent, I showed it to my kids. And was dismayed when I realized that the crow characters in the cartoon is a racist stereotype, something that totally went over my head when I was a kid myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 9:46:40 GMT
And I think if it were produced today, they would have used an Asian actor in the role. James Hong is a favourite candidate for me, he's got a good range and his cool, stylish characters really stick in the mind. I'd think that goes without saying! Of course they wouldn't have a white guy in make up today. I love James Hong and his Big Trouble era self is good fan-casting, Lo Pan is a ready made Who villain. That's exactly who I was thinking of! Big Trouble is one of my favourite movies. He's just so charming and powerful, even when he's the old man in the wheelchair. He's got that twinkle. I think if it was made even five years later it would've been an Asian guy playing the role. Possibly, but not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination. There was still a lot of stereotyping going on, and tokenism was definitely a thing. Along the same lines, I remember watching and enjoying the Dumbo the Elephant Disney cartoon when I was a kid, so when I became a parent, I showed it to my kids. And was dismayed when I realized that the crow characters in the cartoon is a racist stereotype, something that totally went over my head when I was a kid myself. I had a very similar experience rewatching 101 Dalmations recently. I'd completely forgotten the "Crazy woman drivers..." line from the lorry driver at the end of the film. Likewise, just didn't register to me as a kid. Sadly a lot of this stuff goes in fits and starts, yeah. Riley, Ace of Spies in the early 1980s used yellowface for Inspector Tsientsin in one of their episodes. Yet a couple decade before that, I, Spy in the mid-60s employed a lot of Asian actors for their roles. Filming in Eastern Asia (and Hong Kong in particular), it just would have been silly not to. Lots of familiar faces pop up: Mako (Uncle Iroh from Avatar), Teru Shimada (Osato from You Only Live Twice), George Takei (Sulu from Star Trek), Richard Loo (Hai Fat from The Man with the Golden Gun), and so on. It's zigzagged quite a bit over the years. It's an obvious statement, but globalisation, internet culture and cheaper airfares (gone are the days where an inexpensive, one-way ticket from New York to Paris was $2,600 US) have all played a really big part in changing people's perceptions. Just this explosion of new technologies and methodologies from the Information Age. Nowadays, you can look up an Asian-American actress recasting Asiatic characters played by Caucasian women with a type and a click. Easy. The information comes directly to your house/office. Right at your fingertips.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2018 11:35:11 GMT
I think if it was made even five years later it would've been an Asian guy playing the role. Along the same lines, I remember watching and enjoying the Dumbo the Elephant Disney cartoon when I was a kid, so when I became a parent, I showed it to my kids. And was dismayed when I realized that the crow characters in the cartoon is a racist stereotype, something that totally went over my head when I was a kid myself. Ah, Disney films... there's something in a good few of them that have fallen foul of racist stereotype complaints over the years. The Jungle Book, Song of the South, Fantasia, Dumbo, Aristocrats... most of it went over our heads at the time watching them though.
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Post by Ela on Jul 2, 2018 14:48:45 GMT
Along the same lines, I remember watching and enjoying the Dumbo the Elephant Disney cartoon when I was a kid, so when I became a parent, I showed it to my kids. And was dismayed when I realized that the crow characters in the cartoon is a racist stereotype, something that totally went over my head when I was a kid myself. Ah, Disney films... there's something in a good few of them that have fallen foul of racist stereotype complaints over the years. The Jungle Book, Song of the South, Fantasia, Dumbo, Aristocrats... most of it went over our heads at the time watching them though.
True enough.
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Post by pazzer on Jul 2, 2018 19:27:10 GMT
The Invasion Of Time There's quite a bit to like about this story. Tom Baker is on fine form, Borusa and Rodan are great characters. All the cliffhangers are good. Plus get to find out more about the inside of the Tardis and Gallifrey.
Sadly the plot doesn't really work. As the Time Lords have gone from all powerful to really weak. With all their secrets laid bare. Which would make sense if the Master or another Time Lord was behind things. But instead it's the Vardans who don't really get much development. Apart from their more powerful than the Time Lords.
As for the ending the Doctor forgets everything then everybody leaves. Leela makes sense as she's going to join the outsiders. The Doctor having said early in the story she'd feel at home there. Oh wait she's fallen in love with the guard for some reason. Also K-9 is staying. But that doesn't matter as Doctor seems to have ordered the latest model.
The Ribos Operation The Doctor is going to meet God. Oh wait it's just some guardian guy. New companion in the form of Fred who is also a Time Lord and at over 100 the oldest companion. Like her immediately, very self confident maybe a touch arrogant. Learn Doctor was around 200 when he left Gallifrey. Really like Garron and is just a fun story.
The Pirate Planet Ideas are good and really like the Mentiads. Along with the planet itself. But it doesn't manage to pull it off and feels a bit boring in places.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jul 4, 2018 19:51:54 GMT
"The Creature from the Pit" has got it all. Sexism, violence, racism and pornography, and it's very clearly the precursor of some current "Dead Ringers" sketches -
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Post by pazzer on Jul 5, 2018 7:10:35 GMT
The Stones Of Blood Warning about the Black Guardian surely means him or one of his minions will be appearing. Nope seems it's just an excuse for a recap on the whole key thing. Is great to see the Doctor so excited about landing on Earth. Not so keen on the druids costumes. But there is a creepiness and this could be a good horror story. Stone vampires look amazing when their doing their thing and a bit rubbish when just moving. Professor Rumford is great. Like the Megara and all the courtroom stuff. Did not expect that camping scene maybe it's a horror after all. Really like Romana. Didn't really care for the villain as seemed to have no plan.
The Androids Of Tara Can't remember the Doctor wanting a day off before. Nice bit of character development when Romana announces she's wearing the latest fashion of Tara. Seems the Doctor isn't needed anyway as Romana has already found the segment. What were they thinking with that monster. Please don't let there be any more. How dare that guy burn the Doctor's scarf. Ok looks like politic intrigue story. Lamia is great and really interesting, would have liked to see more of her. Count Grendel is brilliant and has touch of the master about him. Sword fight is nice idea but found it a bit long and dull. Overall is a fun enjoyable story.
The Power Of Kroll None of the characters stick out. Swampies aren't really developed and may as well just be cultists. For the most part Kroll looks good. Am disappointed Romana didn't get to help stop Kroll or the computer. Overall is average.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 5, 2018 15:45:02 GMT
The Creature from the Pit Average story. Adrasta was a fun villain though, weird how early in Episode 4 she's done away with. As for the creature...well they tried.
Nightmare of Eden A decent story. The setup is unique and the drug aspect was done well. Mandrels look alright too.
The Horns of Nimon Missed most of this one but caught Episode 4. Weird pantomime villain, Nimons wobbling around like they're drunk and based on the Minotaur legend too. Yeah, a weird one.
The Leisure Hive Enter the JNT era. This was quite good. I liked the concepts of the Hive and Argolis, and the older Doctor makeup was quite effective.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 5, 2018 15:49:14 GMT
The Creature from the PitAverage story. Adrasta was a fun villain though, weird how early in Episode 4 she's done away with. As for the creature...well they tried. Nightmare of EdenA decent story. The setup is unique and the drug aspect was done well. Mandrels look alright too. The Horns of NimonMissed most of this one but caught Episode 4. Weird pantomime villain, Nimons wobbling around like they're drunk and based on the Minotaur legend too. Yeah, a weird one. The Leisure HiveEnter the JNT era. This was quite good. I liked the concepts of the Hive and Argolis, and the older Doctor makeup was quite effective. Not soon enough for me dreadful performance, otherwise all good observations.
Regards
mark687
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Post by glutamodo on Jul 5, 2018 15:54:28 GMT
Argh! I had meant to watch yesterday but after a full 12 hour night shift beforehand, somehow I fell asleep and missed it. Next up comes the final stories of of Tom and I have the last of those on DVD and have seen them a LOT over the years. Well, not that cactus story, I might have to try to tune for that one.
update, yeah, nice to see Meglos again, haven't seen that one in ages! Dodecahedron-ho!
... it is odd/good to hear the CORRECT music over this version of end title credits, (BF uses a slightly different version)
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Post by dasmaniac on Jul 5, 2018 22:05:01 GMT
State of Decay is such a brilliant story. It is one of my favorite Doctor Who stories. It's so well done.
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Post by glutamodo on Jul 6, 2018 7:51:09 GMT
Since I own the E-Space Trilogy on DVD I've seen these many more times than probably any other Uncle Tom stories. (OK, I own Key to Time on BBC VHS, so I have to include those too, even Kroll!) Now, some things wear perhaps a bit thin within State of Decay, yet it has some bits that I rather liked, but I've long held the subsequent "Warriors' Gate" as one of the best stories in the history of Dr. Who, coming up later today. Even though I own it and have seen it many times, I intend to watch when it comes up today.
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Post by pazzer on Jul 6, 2018 10:21:51 GMT
The Armageddon Factor The epic conclusion of key to time this is going to be great. If only I could remember what the key was again. Would think planets fighting each other would have something more advanced than nuclear weapons. There is no real depth to the characters. Time loop is a nice idea. But seems it's actually just an excuse to keep reshowing the same clips over and over. At last something exciting another Time Lord called Drax and he went to school with the Doctor. The ending is so bad the White guardian doesn't even bother to show up.
Destiny Of The Daleks I feel cheated that Romana didn't get a proper regeneration and it seems unfair to Mary Tamm. As she did such a brilliant job with the character. Am actually surprised how much I took to Romana 1. As at the start was all hurry up and get to Romana 2. As for the regeneration itself I guess it's meant to be funny. Seems if you choose to regenerate you have a lot more control over the process. Maybe that's why she seems unfazed by it unlike the Doctor. Though she could just be better at regenerating than him.
Movellans seem interesting can't wait to find out more about them. Oh they just want to conquer the galaxy, how dull. Also they seem pretty easy to defeat. Davros is back from the dead and isn't a patch on how good he was in Genesis. No idea why the Daleks even think he's alive. When did the Daleks become robots and why is Davros so pally with them. Surely they could have come up with a better plan to destroy the Movellans ship. What is up with the Doctor he lets the Daleks kill two people and then tries to kill Davros.
City Of Death Feels different to the stories that have gone before. Maybe it's all the Paris scenes that make it seem normal. Everyone seems to be at the top of their game. Wasn't too keen on Duggan but he grew on me. Count Scarlioni is a great villain. A real treat to watch.
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Post by dasmaniac on Jul 6, 2018 23:28:33 GMT
Ah so we've come to the end of the Fourth Doctor. What a wonderful final few stories. A truly stellar run of stories starting with Full Circle. Logopolis is a fine exit for the Fourth Doctor.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 7, 2018 13:16:49 GMT
I do love the late Season 18 entries. I dunno if it was intentional or not, but Season 18 really focuses on the theme of decay and rebirth. The Leisure Hive deals with a species slowly decaying but seeking a way to rebirth, Full Circle deals with a society stuck in a cycle and ends with them starting out anew, State of Decay sees the vampires clinging to life and attempting to rebirth an ancient foe, The Keeper of Traken deals with the coming demise of the titular Keeper and sees the Master find a new life at last and Logopolis sees decay of the entire universe and ends with the rebirth of the Doctor. The funeral melancholy of Logopolis fits the theme perfectly, with a subdued Doctor being followed by a Watcher from afar, and the fall and rise of the music during the regeneration.
Courtesy of Twitch I've now seen all the Fourth Doctor except for most of The Horns of Nimon and Meglos. What a ride.
Oh and I showed the opening theme of K-9 and Company to my mum and she (besides from finding it horrendously funny) actually had vague recollections of it. I have seen K-9 and Company before so quit halfway through it's stream, but the chat certainly didn't seem to be enjoying it (favourite comment: This is like Emmerdale Farm, but less exciting).
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Post by dasmaniac on Jul 7, 2018 19:19:27 GMT
I do love the late Season 18 entries. I dunno if it was intentional or not, but Season 18 really focuses on the theme of decay and rebirth. The Leisure Hive deals with a species slowly decaying but seeking a way to rebirth, Full Circle deals with a society stuck in a cycle and ends with them starting out anew, State of Decay sees the vampires clinging to life and attempting to rebirth an ancient foe, The Keeper of Traken deals with the coming demise of the titular Keeper and sees the Master find a new life at last and Logopolis sees decay of the entire universe and ends with the rebirth of the Doctor. The funeral melancholy of Logopolis fits the theme perfectly, with a subdued Doctor being followed by a Watcher from afar, and the fall and rise of the music during the regeneration. Courtesy of Twitch I've now seen all the Fourth Doctor except for most of The Horns of Nimon and Meglos. What a ride. Oh and I showed the opening theme of K-9 and Company to my mum and she (besides from finding it horrendously funny) actually had vague recollections of it. I have seen K-9 and Company before so quit halfway through it's stream, but the chat certainly didn't seem to be enjoying it (favourite comment: This is like Emmerdale Farm, but less exciting). It was intentional. I think on The Leisure Hive DVD, Chris Bidmead talks about the theme of Season 18 being entropy.
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Post by pazzer on Jul 8, 2018 16:07:58 GMT
The Creature From The Pit Costumes and set look good. Organon seems to be the only fleshed out character. Don't like the new k9 voice. How did somebody decide that monster design was a good idea.
Nightmare Of Eden Like the idea of ships getting stuck together. Soon as the Doctor arrives he immediately takes control. Mystery of the drug tracking is interesting. Both k9 and Romana are great and I really like Tryst. Not sure why the spaceship has stairs. Don't think the customs agents really add anything. Really enjoyable story.
The Horns Of Nimon The story idea is fine but isn't well executed. Nimon looks good apart from the head which is far to big. Romana has made her own sonic and the Doctor tries to steal it.
The Leisure Hive New titles. Seems to spent quick a bit of part 1 showing Brighton beach. Surely they could have found a better way to write k9 out than him going into the sea. Seems to be two different stories thrown together and have no idea what's meant to be going on.
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