aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Nov 9, 2018 21:27:06 GMT
This is not directed at you daver, or anyone on this forum, but this is something I 've been wanting to say that your post inadvertantly touches on:
I legitimately feel great when I've seen all these pictures of kids dressing up as Thirteen, or drawing the characters or even rewatching older episodes because of seeing the new stuff. Had a massive grin from that little 'un's Rosa Parks drawing. I've shared that stuff on here because 1) I think it's really sweet, 2) people here like it and 3) it shows, beyond our own subjective opinions and tastes, this iteration of the show is speaking to someone, is providing comfort to someone, and they're not 'stupid' or 'fake' or 'a threat to us'.
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
I think I'm speaking for everyone when I say that I'm glad that the kids are loving it. However, it would be nice if most of us loved it as well. Well, if the kids are loving it instead of me I can stick with the Capaldi years and BF McGann which I adore, seems a fair trade...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 21:38:20 GMT
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
Where? As you say no-one here is saying that, so it's a bit like you're offering a rebuttal to an argument you're not getting here. I'd post what you have directly to those people who say that rather than here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 21:41:34 GMT
I think I'm speaking for everyone when I say that I'm glad that the kids are loving it. However, it would be nice if most of us loved it as well. Well, if the kids are loving it instead of me I can stick with the Capaldi years and BF McGann which I adore, seems a fair trade... Actually, that reminds me, to anyone who feels this era isn't quite to their tastes, I highly recommend tuning into DWM's comic run to see what they come up with in parallel. I've had some very good experiences with them over the past couple of years. It's not unusual to see names like Jonathan Morris, Steve Lyons, Jacqueline Rayner, Mark Wright or even Robert Shearman at one point in its pages. Scott Gray, who took over from Johnny Morris's run on the Eleventh Doctor, has written for all manner of incarnations (from the First to the Fourth to the Twelfth) over the years and I believe he's continuing forward into the present run.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2018 21:49:26 GMT
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
Where? As you say no-one here is saying that, so it's a bit like you're offering a rebuttal to an argument you're not getting here. I'd post what you have directly to those people who say that rather than here. Because I'm not making a rebuttal: merely putting out a thought that's on my mind, and I happen to like the even-keel of here.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 21:50:31 GMT
I know I should make up my own mind and watch it myself, but it is precious time, and I note that respected members on this forum with Catholic (i.e broad) tastes have been dissatisfied after watching and quietly ceased commenting on recent episodes. So, to quote 'Dragons Den', as far as the current show is concerned 'I'm Out'. This is not directed at you daver, or anyone on this forum, but this is something I 've been wanting to say that your post inadvertantly touches on:
I legitimately feel great when I've seen all these pictures of kids dressing up as Thirteen, or drawing the characters or even rewatching older episodes because of seeing the new stuff. Had a massive grin from that little 'un's Rosa Parks drawing. I've shared that stuff on here because 1) I think it's really sweet, 2) people here like it and 3) it shows, beyond our own subjective opinions and tastes, this iteration of the show is speaking to someone, is providing comfort to someone, and they're not 'stupid' or 'fake' or 'a threat to us'.
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
No nucleus - I agree that its great to see it connecting with a new audience. Something it set out to do. Perhaps it needed to leave behind some of us in order to achieve that. Some of us can bridge the gap and still appreciate it, whilst others amongst us have a mindset that is holistic to a point, after which it becomes a name, or format for the show, much as I do not see Eastenders of Coronation Street as being the same shows that i followed for 20 years, before ceasing to see them in the same light. But that's as much part of me getting older (and the shows becoming more sensationalist/far fetched). As you suggest, why should the show get older with its viewers and lose sight of the audience it was aimed at in the first place? An inward looking nostalgia fest, as the show was becoming perceived to be (given comments by 'rarely watchers') suggest that some families were not exactly encouraging of their kids to get too into it. Chibnall is doing what he set out to do, by discarding the baggage and toning down the complexity, to gain new viewers. I hold no spite to his pragmatism, but cannot help but look back and admire RTD for the way he appealed to both camps with sharp and clever plotting with genuine 'layers' that pulled off probably the biggest relaunch in TV history. I suppose I am disappointed that CB has not been as savvy as of yet.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Nov 9, 2018 21:52:27 GMT
I've really enjoyed it. I don't think there's been an episode without flaws yet but that's Doctor Who, really. As a season, it hasn't tingled my molecules the way last season did, but my wife is sitting down and watching it with me without complaining, which is something she hasn't done very much of with the revival series. And there's been a bit more buzz amongst my students which isn't something I've heard at my school before (I've been there for four years, to give it some historical context).
In terms of characters, I love the new team: they don't feel like stereotypes and caricatures the way that Mickey and Jackie did in their first few episodes: they feel like proper people who have chosen to have adventures. My only complaint would be that Yaz feels a bit "Nyssa" in this group: she's there to offer a shoulder and a bit of a moral compass until the writers find a decent angle for her, which is a shame because she comes across as a bit Doctor-y herself: her opening scene showed her using humour and compassion to solve a problem and many of her scenes show her offering some sort of insight or help to others. She's also a person who, going by her career choice, wants to fix things.
The stories have been fairly even in quality: there hasn't been a "Caves/Twin" pairing yet, which is my gold standard for script editing on television. None of them have been "bad" television but I was hoping that this season might fix the endings problem we've had for a few years ie, make them less rushed and tacked on. It is possible that this is a problem with the format rather than the writing.
So far as the Doctor goes, I'm liking Jodie's feel of the character: she's definitely the Doctor, for me, and for those who are wondering when we'll get a real "moment" I think we've had it: the knives/ guns stance in TWWFTE felt like a mission statement to me. It wasn't bombastic or dramatic like previous Doctors but I'm willing to put money on a backlash to a woman making big speeches like that because she'd come across as "shrill" and "overbearing" to a certain subset of the audience. I think we're getting a more low key version of the Doctor - a little bit 2, a touch of 7 - and it will be an interesting change.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2018 21:53:32 GMT
This is not directed at you daver, or anyone on this forum, but this is something I 've been wanting to say that your post inadvertantly touches on:
I legitimately feel great when I've seen all these pictures of kids dressing up as Thirteen, or drawing the characters or even rewatching older episodes because of seeing the new stuff. Had a massive grin from that little 'un's Rosa Parks drawing. I've shared that stuff on here because 1) I think it's really sweet, 2) people here like it and 3) it shows, beyond our own subjective opinions and tastes, this iteration of the show is speaking to someone, is providing comfort to someone, and they're not 'stupid' or 'fake' or 'a threat to us'.
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
Chibnall is doing what he set out to do, by discarding the baggage and toning down the complexity, to gain new viewers. I hold no spite to his pragmatism, but cannot help but look back and admire RTD for the way he appealed to both camps with sharp and clever plotting with genuine 'layers' that pulled off probably the biggest relaunch in TV history. I suppose I am disappointed that CB has not been as savvy as of yet. And I certainly don't stop you from having your own views and observations. I welcome it. But I don't think things will always remain such: as said before, Chris likely has his dream stories and crazy stuff he wants to do once niceties are done, and I do certainly think there's more in store.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 22:21:58 GMT
So far as the Doctor goes, I'm liking Jodie's feel of the character: she's definitely the Doctor, for me, and for those who are wondering when we'll get a real "moment" I think we've had it: the knives/ guns stance in TWWFTE felt like a mission statement to me. It wasn't bombastic or dramatic like previous Doctors but I'm willing to put money on a backlash to a woman making big speeches like that because she'd come across as "shrill" and "overbearing" to a certain subset of the audience. I think we're getting a more low key version of the Doctor - a little bit 2, a touch of 7 - and it will be an interesting change. Like the issues I have with her (lack of) character, though, this is not so much what she is but rather what she isn't. As you hint other Doctors would act exactly that way but in a more speechifyingly bombastic way....so even in those moments it's a bit "Tennant without the grandstanding" or "Smith without the speeches" rather than something of her own. As I said in the other thread this is all fine - the audiences won't care at all (if they even notice) if she's reminiscent of the Doctors they actually liked but when there's so little to say "this is Jodie, pure Jodie", I'm struggling to hang my hat on her being a particularly interesting Doctor. I've seen her pacifism, sense of fun, optimism, dislike of weapons and love of science and exploration put forward as to what marks her character. Yet those are all well-worn aspects of the character from all across the 53 years of the show. Not always but they're certainly recurring elements. They're what can make her "Doctor-ish" to use the fandom term but she's yet to have - and this is the writing not Jodie - something that puts her on the map in terms of what she offers to the ongoing history of the show other than repetition and safety. It almost feels like after Capaldi's Doctor didn't capture the public imagination and given the hazards of the gender swap Chibnall has written the most audience friendly, least-challenging version of the character to really make sure it's at least an easy show to watch again. Not a bad idea to get the casuals in, again, but as someone decidedly not a casual fan there's just nothing there that captures my imagination. Tennant never did either really but at least his Doctor felt fresh at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 23:03:45 GMT
I don't do overlong analyses, I either like something or I don't. I do like what I have seen so far though and I think S11 has been very enjoyable. Plus, the whole family are still watching it every week, which hasn't happened with Doctor Who in our house for years. So that's a good sign. I think Bradley Walsh is the surprise of the show at the moment as Jodie hasn't really nailed down the character yet and 13 comes across as a female version of Tennant's Doctor at times for me... in fact S11 has a distinct RTD feel to it so far. (Which is good as I liked RTD's era.) As long as we carry on enjoying the episodes I will have no complaints, but I am expecting Jodie's Doctor to develop a bit more as time goes on and her companions (friends) getting a bit more to do.
Still not too keen on the new TARDIS interior mind you, but the theme has grown on me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 23:23:48 GMT
I don't do overlong analyses, I either like something or I don't. I do like what I have seen so far though and I think S11 has been very enjoyable. Plus, the whole family are still watching it every week, which hasn't happened with Doctor Who in our house for years. So that's a good sign. I think Bradley Walsh is the surprise of the show at the moment as Jodie hasn't really nailed down the character yet and 13 comes across as a female version of Tennant's Doctor at times for me... in fact S11 has a distinct RTD feel to it so far. (Which is good as I liked RTD's era.) As long as we carry on enjoying the episodes I will have no complaints, but I am expecting Jodie's Doctor to develop a bit more as time goes on and her companions (friends) getting a bit more to do. Still not too keen on the new TARDIS interior mind you, but the theme has grown on me. The TARDIS interior is my main issue with the new series. It seems a bit 'Eccleston-lite' in its design.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Nov 9, 2018 23:43:55 GMT
So far as the Doctor goes, I'm liking Jodie's feel of the character: she's definitely the Doctor, for me, and for those who are wondering when we'll get a real "moment" I think we've had it: the knives/ guns stance in TWWFTE felt like a mission statement to me. It wasn't bombastic or dramatic like previous Doctors but I'm willing to put money on a backlash to a woman making big speeches like that because she'd come across as "shrill" and "overbearing" to a certain subset of the audience. I think we're getting a more low key version of the Doctor - a little bit 2, a touch of 7 - and it will be an interesting change. Like the issues I have with her (lack of) character, though, this is not so much what she is but rather what she isn't. As you hint other Doctors would act exactly that way but in a more speechifyingly bombastic way....so even in those moments it's a bit "Tennant without the grandstanding" or "Smith without the speeches" rather than something of her own. As I said in the other thread this is all fine - the audiences won't care at all (if they even notice) if she's reminiscent of the Doctors they actually liked but when there's so little to say "this is Jodie, pure Jodie", I'm struggling to hang my hat on her being a particularly interesting Doctor. I've seen her pacifism, sense of fun, optimism, dislike of weapons and love of science and exploration put forward as to what marks her character. Yet those are all well-worn aspects of the character from all across the 53 years of the show. Not always but they're certainly recurring elements. They're what can make her "Doctor-ish" to use the fandom term but she's yet to have - and this is the writing not Jodie - something that puts her on the map in terms of what she offers to the ongoing history of the show other than repetition and safety. It almost feels like after Capaldi's Doctor didn't capture the public imagination and given the hazards of the gender swap Chibnall has written the most audience friendly, least-challenging version of the character to really make sure it's at least an easy show to watch again. Not a bad idea to get the casuals in, again, but as someone decidedly not a casual fan there's just nothing there that captures my imagination. Tennant never did either really but at least his Doctor felt fresh at the time. I can totally see where you're coming from but I think the character we see won't necessarily become fully-formed in the way you speak of for some time: we're still seeing her find her way and evolving. I think, too, that her characteristics of fun and spirit of adventure could be her defining qualities more than in other doctors. I'm really fine with that: I'm a bit over the "I'm the Doctor and I..." style speeches. We don't need reminding that the Doctor is a hero. I'm happy to see an "actions speak louder than words" take on the character again.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 1:01:28 GMT
Like the issues I have with her (lack of) character, though, this is not so much what she is but rather what she isn't. As you hint other Doctors would act exactly that way but in a more speechifyingly bombastic way....so even in those moments it's a bit "Tennant without the grandstanding" or "Smith without the speeches" rather than something of her own. As I said in the other thread this is all fine - the audiences won't care at all (if they even notice) if she's reminiscent of the Doctors they actually liked but when there's so little to say "this is Jodie, pure Jodie", I'm struggling to hang my hat on her being a particularly interesting Doctor. I've seen her pacifism, sense of fun, optimism, dislike of weapons and love of science and exploration put forward as to what marks her character. Yet those are all well-worn aspects of the character from all across the 53 years of the show. Not always but they're certainly recurring elements. They're what can make her "Doctor-ish" to use the fandom term but she's yet to have - and this is the writing not Jodie - something that puts her on the map in terms of what she offers to the ongoing history of the show other than repetition and safety. It almost feels like after Capaldi's Doctor didn't capture the public imagination and given the hazards of the gender swap Chibnall has written the most audience friendly, least-challenging version of the character to really make sure it's at least an easy show to watch again. Not a bad idea to get the casuals in, again, but as someone decidedly not a casual fan there's just nothing there that captures my imagination. Tennant never did either really but at least his Doctor felt fresh at the time. I can totally see where you're coming from but I think the character we see won't necessarily become fully-formed in the way you speak of for some time: we're still seeing her find her way and evolving. I think, too, that her characteristics of fun and spirit of adventure could be her defining qualities more than in other doctors. I'm really fine with that: I'm a bit over the "I'm the Doctor and I..." style speeches. We don't need reminding that the Doctor is a hero. I'm happy to see an "actions speak louder than words" take on the character again. Well, it is a thread asking for opinions in the present rather than what we hope will happen so I'm certainly more concerned with the here and now rather than what the character might be, or may never be. We've got plenty of future for those debates I like a "show don't tell" approach too and am glad to get that once more. Still though "fun", "spirit of adventure"....applicable to what, over half the Doctors at various times? They may be her defining qualities so far but they're so ingrained in the character I think it's almost predictable given the more sombre nature of the Capaldi Doctor that Jodie would be more demonstrative of those traits, but they're nothing we haven't seen from each and every incarnation - albeit in differing doses. Ask the layman in the street what The Doctor is like and you'll get plenty of fun and adventuring answers, Jodie or not.
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Post by kinghumble on Nov 10, 2018 1:08:08 GMT
I'm loving lots of individual elements of the series (13's intelligent humility, the group's dynamic, Ryan and Graham's slow bonding, the sonic screwdriver's creation from melted spoons) but I'm missing a good villain and I'm hoping we get a stand-out "wow" episode. We haven't yet, and we do need at least one.
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Post by barnabaslives on Nov 10, 2018 2:22:36 GMT
As I said in the other thread this is all fine - the audiences won't care at all (if they even notice) if she's reminiscent of the Doctors they actually liked but when there's so little to say "this is Jodie, pure Jodie", I'm struggling to hang my hat on her being a particularly interesting Doctor. I've seen her pacifism, sense of fun, optimism, dislike of weapons and love of science and exploration put forward as to what marks her character. Yet those are all well-worn aspects of the character from all across the 53 years of the show. Not always but they're certainly recurring elements. They're what can make her "Doctor-ish" to use the fandom term but she's yet to have - and this is the writing not Jodie - something that puts her on the map in terms of what she offers to the ongoing history of the show other than repetition and safety. It almost feels like after Capaldi's Doctor didn't capture the public imagination and given the hazards of the gender swap Chibnall has written the most audience friendly, least-challenging version of the character to really make sure it's at least an easy show to watch again. Not a bad idea to get the casuals in, again, but as someone decidedly not a casual fan there's just nothing there that captures my imagination. Tennant never did either really but at least his Doctor felt fresh at the time. Well, let's see - we've had things like sudden brilliant flashes of deductive reasoning, thinking out loud, team player - these all serve to make this Doctor distinctive, in my mind anyway. The deductive reasoning mainly, that really made me think "Now this is Thirteen!" every time. I didn't get so much of that with Tsuranga Conundrum or it seemed more diffused than focused this time, which might be why I suddenly found it harder to get around some of the shakiness and shoehorning that's probably been there since the season started - but maybe we're not going to get beaten over the head with it as a trademark every time? I wouldn't underestimate recurring qualities either though - someone said something to the effect that this Doctor radiates enough enthusiastic curiosity that she's very easy to picture actually taking time to study something for the joy of it, and I very much agree. Thirteen seems to exude this in a way I haven't quite felt since the earliest Doctors, with the possible exception of maybe the Eighth - not exactly something I'd call "well-worn", and maybe it's as capable of making things more accessible to younger viewers as "simplifying" things for them, just by giving them a Doctor they can relate to more? I like what this does in the sense of the whole story, though - this isn't just the First Doctor leaving Gallifrey behind with a child-like curiosity still intact, this is a Doctor who's somehow regained it even after all that's happened in between. That feels like something new and not just a reboot back to 1963. I think this Doctor still stands to make a distinctive and lasting impression on me as a Doctor who's very notably regenerated not just in body, but in spirit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 6:26:52 GMT
Just not feeling it or connecting.I do not truthfully get Jodie as the Doctor in any way.The series is beautifully filmed and the sets look great.The stories are not engaging me apart from Rosa .I only watch the episodes once and have had no real desire of OH I HAVE TO SEE THAT ONE AGAIN!It appears to me WHO for a totally new generation of fans but not for me which makes me kind of 😞.Oh well lets see what the next batch of stories can do.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 6:37:51 GMT
As I said in the other thread this is all fine - the audiences won't care at all (if they even notice) if she's reminiscent of the Doctors they actually liked but when there's so little to say "this is Jodie, pure Jodie", I'm struggling to hang my hat on her being a particularly interesting Doctor. I've seen her pacifism, sense of fun, optimism, dislike of weapons and love of science and exploration put forward as to what marks her character. Yet those are all well-worn aspects of the character from all across the 53 years of the show. Not always but they're certainly recurring elements. They're what can make her "Doctor-ish" to use the fandom term but she's yet to have - and this is the writing not Jodie - something that puts her on the map in terms of what she offers to the ongoing history of the show other than repetition and safety. It almost feels like after Capaldi's Doctor didn't capture the public imagination and given the hazards of the gender swap Chibnall has written the most audience friendly, least-challenging version of the character to really make sure it's at least an easy show to watch again. Not a bad idea to get the casuals in, again, but as someone decidedly not a casual fan there's just nothing there that captures my imagination. Tennant never did either really but at least his Doctor felt fresh at the time. Well, let's see - we've had things like sudden brilliant flashes of deductive reasoning, thinking out loud, team player - these all serve to make this Doctor distinctive, in my mind anyway. The deductive reasoning mainly, that really made me think "Now this is Thirteen!" every time. I didn't get so much of that with Tsuranga Conundrum or it seemed more diffused than focused this time, which might be why I suddenly found it harder to get around some of the shakiness and shoehorning that's probably been there since the season started - but maybe we're not going to get beaten over the head with it as a trademark every time? I wouldn't underestimate recurring qualities either though - someone said something to the effect that this Doctor radiates enough enthusiastic curiosity that she's very easy to picture actually taking time to study something for the joy of it, and I very much agree. Thirteen seems to exude this in a way I haven't quite felt since the earliest Doctors, with the possible exception of maybe the Eighth - not exactly something I'd call "well-worn", and maybe it's as capable of making things more accessible to younger viewers as "simplifying" things for them, just by giving them a Doctor they can relate to more? I like what this does in the sense of the whole story, though - this isn't just the First Doctor leaving Gallifrey behind with a child-like curiosity still intact, this is a Doctor who's somehow regained it even after all that's happened in between. That feels like something new and just not a reboot back to 1963. I think this Doctor still stands to make a distinctive and lasting impression on me as a Doctor who's very notably regenerated not just in body, but in spirit. Yeah, she's an interesting juxtaposition from what's been seen so far. The Ghost Monument brought a lot of really interesting things to the forefront with her character for me. She uses Venusian aikido to prove that she has the martial skill necessary to strongarm her "competition"... But she doesn't use it. When she asks him whether he's reevaluated his worldview because of her and he snorts: "No," it's just dropped. In contrast to the Twelfth Doctor's intensity, I think she's at peace with the cosmos. She doesn't need to prove anything, she's just happy to be around. I'm really struck by her modesty too. It's not a gentle affectation like you'd expect of most incarnations, but a genuine desire to minimalise her impact. Whether the world she visits lets her or not is another story entirely. I'm also getting the impression that the first question for her isn't "Why?" but "How?" instead. Standing in a gallery, looking at a sculpture, she'd be more interested in how the artist made it, then what it meant in that space. She could spend decades working at a watchmaker's, studying the little cogs and gears as they're assembled and disassembled.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 7:18:44 GMT
Mmmmm, It's very hit and miss for me. Rosa was astounding, last weeks episode horrendous. I like Jodie as the Doctor, although her over use of the sonic is annoying. I also think three companions is a bit much, I think they could do with dropping Mandip Gill.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 7:21:02 GMT
Mmmmm, It's very hit and miss for me. Rosa was astounding, last weeks episode horrendous. I like Jodie as the Doctor, although her over use of the sonic is annoying. I also think three companions is a bit much, I think they could do with dropping Mandip Gill. I think they could drop Jodie 😜 just joking ...i think
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 7:22:43 GMT
Mmmmm, It's very hit and miss for me. Rosa was astounding, last weeks episode horrendous. I like Jodie as the Doctor, although her over use of the sonic is annoying. I also think three companions is a bit much, I think they could do with dropping Mandip Gill. I think they could drop Jodie 😜 just joking ...i think ... Sorry did you write something?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2018 8:13:00 GMT
Better villains, this has been the weakest aspect of Series 11, weres the risk & boldness Chibnall promised.
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