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Post by stcoop on Nov 9, 2018 12:07:24 GMT
50% of the way through the new series and I hate to say it but I am just not enjoying it as much as I should be.
Don't get me wrong, there's only one out of the five episodes so far that I'd call bad but at the same time none I'd call spectacular. (And I was probably a bit too generous with some of my voting scores on them.)
Moving away from the Moffat-style of scripts was definitely the right move, as was removing any barriers to entry for lapsed and new viewers but I think it's moved too far in the opposite direction and now feels aimed at a bit of a younger audience than before.
Three companions/friends/whatever is not working either. Most of what has passed for character development has been in scenes that feel shoehorned in; the one in last week’s episode being the worst offender. They are also not getting the chance to fully develop their relationship with the Doctor in the way that others have, when it's been primarily the one companion. Speaking of whom...
Jodie is great. Maybe ask her not to do that thing with the Sonic every single time but the problem is the material she's being given to work with. If you had to sum up her Doctor so far the first word that jumps to mind is 'nice', which is not that many steps away from 'Bland'. Now we saw the results of having a Doctor who wasn't nice on the ratings but she needs to be given more to work with. She's spent most of her career in serious drama so let her use the ability she undoubtedly has.
To be clear, there's nothing unfixable here and it wouldn't take much effort to nudge things in a better direction. I suspect Bradley Walsh is only here for one series, which (as much as I like him) should help. As will having Chibnall write less episode; which I also expect will happen.
Then just trust your audience's intelligence a bit more (without getting too clever-clever) and give the Doctor some girt (but not too much) and I think the future can look very bright for the series.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 12:47:08 GMT
Everything in this series feels quite safe to me, and therefore quite bland. Unfortunately I can’t really see what the show wants to be anymore- there’s no distinct identity.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 9, 2018 12:49:12 GMT
50% of the way through the new series and I hate to say it but I am just not enjoying it as much as I should be. Don't get me wrong, there's only one out of the five episodes so far that I'd call bad but at the same time none I'd call spectacular. (And I was probably a bit too generous with some of my voting scores on them.) Moving away from the Moffat-style of scripts was definitely the right move, as was removing any barriers to entry for lapsed and new viewers but I think it's moved too far in the opposite direction and now feels aimed at a bit of a younger audience than before. Three companions/friends/whatever is not working either. Most of what has passed for character development has been in scenes that feel shoehorned in; the one in last week’s episode being the worst offender. They are also not getting the chance to fully develop their relationship with the Doctor in the way that others have, when it's been primarily the one companion. Speaking of whom... Jodie is great. Maybe ask her not to do that thing with the Sonic every single time but the problem is the material she's being given to work with. If you had to sum up her Doctor so far the first word that jumps to mind is 'nice', which is not that many steps away from 'Bland'. Now we saw the results of having a Doctor who wasn't nice on the ratings but she needs to be given more to work with. She's spent most of her career in serious drama so let her use the ability she undoubtedly has. To be clear, there's nothing unfixable here and it wouldn't take much effort to nudge things in a better direction. I suspect Bradley Walsh is only here for one series, which (as much as I like him) should help. As will having Chibnall write less episode; which I also expect will happen. Then just trust your audience's intelligence a bit more (without getting too clever-clever) and give the Doctor some girt (but not too much) and I think the future can look very bright for the series. Who says you should enjoy something more? This is a matter of taste, and if it is not to your taste, that is totally fine. I am not sure why many fans feel the obligation that they "Have to like such and such" just because they are fans (well, of course there is the other extremes who love everything in general and others who only became fans so they are able to complain about something on a daily basis it seems).
In general, I completely agree with you. Series 11 is alright, it looks great and it can be fun. But it just lacks a certain something. All the points you note are valid and are constructive critisism.
As I have written in another thread- I am really waiting for something new and original happening in the TV series. It looks great and is fun, but just take the pregnant man in the last episode. It is just as if they take old Sci-fi tropes and try to tick them off some check-list (and I have absolutely no idea why people got so upset about the pregnant man as if that was something that Doctor Who tried for the first time. I have already seen this is shows as a kid decades ago). Get on with it. Show me something new, exciting and original!
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Post by jasonward on Nov 9, 2018 14:34:03 GMT
Loving this series so far, best since the revival in my view, loving the three companions and their parts in the stories, and the family side we see doesn't feel like a soap opera, an element I've really really disliked with RTD era in particular. The stories are engaging and the protagonists actions and reactions fit with who they are and the circumstances.
One wish I do have, would be that Jodie had a bit more grit in her voice, especially at times when The Doctor is being commanding, but meh, that's a very minor point.
Really looking forward to the remainder of the series.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 14:38:32 GMT
I'd agree with pretty much all of the OP. Aside from the superficial shake-ups the show has enjoyed this series (female Doctor, new TARDIS, change in timeslot), the actual content is mediocre. I say this as a fan who remembers being thrilled by the darker elements of recent Doctor Who. The story I enjoyed most is Arachnids, because there was an effort to make it scary. I also liked the new style of story-telling that debuted with The Woman Who Fell to Earth - a style that hasn't changed subsequently and is feeling a little familiar already.
This series? I like some of it, dislike other elements, which I imagine is fair enough. It's probably a 60/40 split. But if this approach means that here in the UK, 6 million people quite like it - as opposed to last year when 3 million people really liked it - then Chris Chibnall's job is done. The ratings needed to rise. They have risen. I'm glad, because it means Doctor Who continues. At the moment, however, I imagine something like Rosa will be considered a modern day classic. It's giving out a message people are receptive to. It's commendable television. And that's great. But, blimey, what I'd give for another Blink, or a Midnight, or Under the Lake! I don't think we're going to get that - but then, why should we? These stories have already been done.
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Post by The Matt on Nov 9, 2018 14:54:44 GMT
I think the series is...........ok. There is nothing awesome about it but there is nothing so bad as to stop me from watching either. Its very much by the numbers.
One of the things i do miss is the humor. I always thought that Moffatt piled on the humour with everyone having more quips and comebacks than a stand up comedian however now the pendulum has swung to far in the other direction and there is barely any and what there is isn't that funny.
I am enjoying Jodie and Bradley however Tosin and Mandip...........again they are ok but do not stand out.
it sounds like i am digging the show out but i am enjoying it but i just don't think it is meeting its potential.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 9, 2018 15:04:50 GMT
I think the series is...........ok. There is nothing awesome about it but there is nothing so bad as to stop me from watching either. Its very much by the numbers. One of the things i do miss is the humor. I always thought that Moffatt piled on the humour with everyone having more quips and comebacks than a stand up comedian however now the pendulum has swung to far in the other direction and there is barely any and what there is isn't that funny. I am enjoying Jodie and Bradley however Tosin and Mandip...........again they are ok but do not stand out. it sounds like i am digging the show out but i am enjoying it but i just don't think it is meeting its potential.I hope it will be as it was with series 8 where it kind of just was there and the Doctor had not found his feet yet and it was not as good as it could have been... but then series 9 happened and especially series 10 really became awesome.
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Post by Ian McArdell on Nov 9, 2018 15:14:44 GMT
I think it will be really interesting to see what S11 is like with the other writers coming in over the next four episodes. I've enjoyed everything so far to an extent, but it feels as though it's on the cusp of being great, but not quite there. I'm enjoying the performances, but some of the character work seems unsubtle or shoehorned in... like Ryan's daddy issues and the chat about his Mother's death dropped in the midst of Tsuranga.
For my money the show looks and great, but story is where it is lacking. Perhaps Chris Chibnail needs to find his Julie Gardner - someone who will push and challenge him on story mechanics and character beats. It certainly lacks an iconic villain... dare I say it, but we could do with a new twist on a familiar enemy or something really out and out evil!
That said, my two young nephews (8 & 10) are now fans and my 78 year old Dad is watching and enjoying again. Ratings don't lie and I'm thrilled the show has seen such an impressive uptick.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2018 15:17:15 GMT
Everyone's entitled to their opinion: if you liked or loved it, great. If you disliked or hated, also great. No one should feel odd for swinging either way. I like it so far, though not without some provisos, and am interested in seeing where we head next.
I do think there is a discussion to be had about expectation and fan perspective: we all knew in advance what Series 11's mission statement was - get the casuals back after the show had bled viewers for nearly three years (regardless of what you think of Capaldi and his stories, the facts are the facts) and prove Who still had life in it as a mass audience property, rather than a niche institution. I get why Chibnall went down the more simplistic route: I don't love everything about it, but you don't have to like or hate something to be able to say 'okay, I at least get why you did that'. The Moffat era, deserved or not, did cultivate a reputation for being too complicated and inacesible after a certain point, so a 'sampler platter' season that offers pretty much all the Who mainstays, and one that scales back on pretense, makes sense.
It's easy for us as fans to always want stuff bigger, crazier, darker, wilder, and I can't pretend I don't want some of that either. However, 1) the people who ask for that are a part of fandom, rather than the casuals. Ratings don't decree a story good, but so far, they seem to like what they've got. 2) said people likely already know or enjoy Big Finish, so you can get that more experimental material there and 3) It won't always be this way. Chris likely will have his own dream stories he wants to write and his own specific vision of the canon. It's not uncommon for 'first' series to lean safe, with some bright spots - Tom's first season had Genesis as its big wildcard, but the other stories were very familiar to the show's predelections. They were really damn good (well, and Revenge), but it's important in discussion not to confuse concept with execution: Ark is damn well written and performed. It's a real triumph. Conceptually, it has a lot of familiar components and doesn't seek to challenge storytelling conventions or structures. It's formula (which, like melodrama, gets a worse rep than it deserves) done right.
I'd even argue we already got that 'show of teeth' with Rosa, and possibly soon again with Punjab and Witchfinders. Who knows how the other stories will turn ou: for all we know, Ed Hime will blow us away with a story that makes Heaven Sent look like King's Demons.
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Post by mark687 on Nov 9, 2018 16:05:42 GMT
I'll start with a definite positive the Companions.
Best group dynamic since the 60s (could it be argued they're the Morden literacy societal ideal?), not that I care that much, they're are fun, engaging and likeable again.
Plot wise a little thin (Apart From Rosa) but that's Chibnail's style.
Murray Gold must've overdone the music, cause with Segan's I don't notice it till I'm supposed to notice it if you get my meaning.
Which leaves us with 13 and they're fine (till seems too close to 10 and in need of a strongish "I'm the Doctor" moment though)
Too sum up
Great Companions, fine enough stories, solid Doctor, and seems to be broadly well received.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 17:38:27 GMT
Liking it enough...but that's rather the point I think. It feels designed to be liked by all and having little in the way of authorial voice or allowing for bravura performance. I guess this is what it has to be for the first year to get the mass audience back but it doesn't mean we have to love it because of that. It does feel like Doctor Who written for what the popular imagination thinks the show and the character - especially post-2005 - are supposed to be. That does leave it all feeling a tad generic. It's clearly got a younger audience in mind than Moffat's era, again nothing objectively wrong with that for the future of the show...but it doesn't mean we need to think it's subjectively good for the storytelling. Tennant's era started a lot less involved than it ended up. This could go in a similiar direction.
I'd like to see Jodie get a character that is distinct from her predecessors, a villain or two that will be remembered and hopefully when the show is confident enough that the casuals are back on 100%, a bit more flavour in the writing and plotting. It's early days though. Longer term....you've got to think S12 will see the return of some classic foes. Establish The Doctor this year then have her start to face the enemies the audiences know next time.
As much as people are going to moan about the show being off-air next year the major upside is Chris and co will be able to assess what did and didn't work about this series and what the public thought of it before filming a frame. In previous eras with series on the same timeslot each year it'd often be filming before the public got their say about the previous series.
Halfway through and I've yet to see any sign of what Chibnall's vision for Who is, and what Jodie's character is beyond "Tennant less the strops".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:06:12 GMT
Liking it enough...but that's rather the point I think. It feels designed to be liked by all and having little in the way of authorial voice or allowing for bravura performance. I guess this is what it has to be for the first year to get the mass audience back but it doesn't mean we have to love it because of that. It does feel like Doctor Who written for what the popular imagination thinks the show and the character - especially post-2005 - are supposed to be. That does leave it all feeling a tad generic. It's clearly got a younger audience in mind than Moffat's era, again nothing objectively wrong with that for the future of the show...but it doesn't mean we need to think it's subjectively good for the storytelling. Tennant's era started a lot less involved than it ended up. This could go in a similiar direction. I'd like to see Jodie get a character that is distinct from her predecessors, a villain or two that will be remembered and hopefully when the show is confident enough that the casuals are back on 100%, a bit more flavour in the writing and plotting. It's early days though. Longer term....you've got to think S12 will see the return of some classic foes. Establish The Doctor this year then have her start to face the enemies the audiences know next time. As much as people are going to moan about the show being off-air next year the major upside is Chris and co will be able to assess what did and didn't work about this series and what the public thought of it before filming a frame. In previous eras with series on the same timeslot each year it'd often be filming before the public got their say about the previous series. Halfway through and I've yet to see any sign of what Chibnall's vision for Who is, and what Jodie's character is beyond "Tennant less the strops". I agree that the reorientation of the show towards kids is a very much needed move because it did, until last year, feel like the show was growing up with the audience, sort of in the same way as the Harry Potter books did. My problem, however, is that it doesn’t feel like Chris Chibnall is pushing the envelope as far as he could do with giving us something scary or intimidating. I’d say that Tim Shaw is as scary as we’ve had, unless of course you’re scared of spiders. What I’m essentially trying to say that the lack of many ‘proper’ villains this series has made it feel perhaps too light and fluffy for its own good, and sort of takes the sense of adventure out of it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 18:55:29 GMT
Liking it enough...but that's rather the point I think. It feels designed to be liked by all and having little in the way of authorial voice or allowing for bravura performance. I guess this is what it has to be for the first year to get the mass audience back but it doesn't mean we have to love it because of that. It does feel like Doctor Who written for what the popular imagination thinks the show and the character - especially post-2005 - are supposed to be. That does leave it all feeling a tad generic. It's clearly got a younger audience in mind than Moffat's era, again nothing objectively wrong with that for the future of the show...but it doesn't mean we need to think it's subjectively good for the storytelling. Tennant's era started a lot less involved than it ended up. This could go in a similiar direction. I'd like to see Jodie get a character that is distinct from her predecessors, a villain or two that will be remembered and hopefully when the show is confident enough that the casuals are back on 100%, a bit more flavour in the writing and plotting. It's early days though. Longer term....you've got to think S12 will see the return of some classic foes. Establish The Doctor this year then have her start to face the enemies the audiences know next time. As much as people are going to moan about the show being off-air next year the major upside is Chris and co will be able to assess what did and didn't work about this series and what the public thought of it before filming a frame. In previous eras with series on the same timeslot each year it'd often be filming before the public got their say about the previous series. Halfway through and I've yet to see any sign of what Chibnall's vision for Who is, and what Jodie's character is beyond "Tennant less the strops". I agree that the reorientation of the show towards kids is a very much needed move because it did, until last year, feel like the show was growing up with the audience, sort of in the same way as the Harry Potter books did. My problem, however, is that it doesn’t feel like Chris Chibnall is pushing the envelope as far as he could do with giving us something scary or intimidating. I’d say that Tim Shaw is as scary as we’ve had, unless of course you’re scared of spiders. What I’m essentially trying to say that the lack of many ‘proper’ villains this series has made it feel perhaps too light and fluffy for its own good, and sort of takes the sense of adventure out of it. I think adventuring for the sake of it doesn't always need a villain, as long as there's true peril but, yes, when this series has tried villains they have been rather Sarah Jane Adventures in execution - they've been about as deep as a puddle. Cheating Predator, Trump-lite and Quantum Leaping-racist sums them up - there's nothing to them beyond their descriptions. I think even if Chibnall is writing down to kids, using that example of Potter, then if kids can handle the moral ambiguity of Snape or the in depth story of Voldemort....kids can handle more than this. I hope we're telling a different story at season's end. With more new writers - and less Chibnall - to come, we'll at least hear some more voices.
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Post by sherlock on Nov 9, 2018 19:07:54 GMT
So far it’s been alright.
Other than Rosa, there hasn’t been anything particularly ground-breaking but the episodes have generally been on generally solid footing, except The Tsangra Conundrum.
Whittaker has made a steady start as the Doctor. Her incarnation doesn’t particularly feel like there’s much to differentiate her yet if I’m honest, aside from her enthusiasm she does seem a little generic Doctor-wise. I’m not sure really but she hasn’t quite ‘clicked’ yet. I had the same thing with Capaldi on first watching Series 8 until Flatline.
The companions. Graham has been a revelation, the two most powerful moments so far were his eulogy for Grace and his reaction to being complicit in the bus scene. Outstanding. Ryan has been well done. Yaz, I dunno why but I still feel we don’t really know her all that well. Her reasoning about staying with the Doctor at the end of Archanids didn’t really seem all that setup (aside from being a bit snarky her family weren't that bad).
Overall it’s been a generally solid start. I would perhaps like them to push the boat out a little more story-wise in the second half but other than that, I’n generally satisfied with what we’re getting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 20:18:23 GMT
Have to be honest here and admit that bar the first episode, I have not yet found the motivation or time to watch further. Too much of what I have read does not encourage me. I have no issue with others liking it and am happy for them. It is just too far removed from what I appreciate in the show. Ratings are indeed good, but it seems to have gained many new viewers but lost plenty of existing ones too. I do however keep reading the posts and hope that the next five episodes produce something substantial. I did not dislike what I saw, but neither was I left in any hurry to catch-up. Reading a thread from BabelColour (below) and the responses to his post illustrated how divisive the current run has been for older, long term fans of both genders and many ages. BabelColour on Series 11
I know I should make up my own mind and watch it myself, but it is precious time, and I note that respected members on this forum with Catholic (i.e broad) tastes have been dissatisfied after watching and quietly ceased commenting on recent episodes. So, to quote 'Dragons Den', as far as the current show is concerned 'I'm Out'.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Nov 9, 2018 21:02:14 GMT
Well, halfway through series 10 I have yet to watch a single second of it beyond the trailers, nor do I feel any pressing desire to do so.
That said, friends of mine whose viewpoints and opinions on Who generally fall in line with my own have been extremely critical of the new series, going as far as to call it boring, uninspired or meandering with little interesting authorial voice (interestingly of the three I'd call hardcore fans of the series, one was a huge fan of the Moffat years and hasn't been at all enamored with Jodie or her episodes though soldiers on loyally watching as he has done every episode since the 1970's, two were rather critical of the Moffat era and its apparent self indulgent complexity, both have made comments that Chibnall has moved too far in the other direction, and that the episodes whilst straight forward breezy and fun enough were extremely bland and have since stopped watching I think)...on the other hand my parents, casual viewers at best have spoken warmly of the new series and Jodie for the most part, viewing it as simpler and easier to follow than the Moffat years though both prefer Capaldi's Doctor and feel she lacks screen presence or ambiguity in comparison.
No idea if I will ever watch Series 11 (and my gut feeling tells me I probably won't be too fond of it if i do) but very interesting to see such a wide variety of views.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 9, 2018 21:10:27 GMT
I know I should make up my own mind and watch it myself, but it is precious time, and I note that respected members on this forum with Catholic (i.e broad) tastes have been dissatisfied after watching and quietly ceased commenting on recent episodes. So, to quote 'Dragons Den', as far as the current show is concerned 'I'm Out'. This is not directed at you daver, or anyone on this forum, but this is something I 've been wanting to say that your post inadvertantly touches on:
I legitimately feel great when I've seen all these pictures of kids dressing up as Thirteen, or drawing the characters or even rewatching older episodes because of seeing the new stuff. Had a massive grin from that little 'un's Rosa Parks drawing. I've shared that stuff on here because 1) I think it's really sweet, 2) people here like it and 3) it shows, beyond our own subjective opinions and tastes, this iteration of the show is speaking to someone, is providing comfort to someone, and they're not 'stupid' or 'fake' or 'a threat to us'.
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 21:20:32 GMT
I'm rather surprised, I'm invested in these characters in a way that shows haven't really been able to do in ages. The Doctor had me from "Does it suit me?" and the use of Grace to flesh out the companions/friends has really done wonders. In terms of going back to its roots, it definitely feels like a show interested in exploring the psychology of its characters again. Particularly with such an analytical Doctor this time 'round. I'm enjoying the production values, the more subdued score and the title sequence tickles a very particular nostalgic nerve... It's all a pretty steady affirmation of a show that's deliberately chosen not to lean too much on any of its past.
If I have a complaint, and I don't think it's really unique to this season, it's that we've not really come across any arch-villains yet. Nothing's really popped out like the marriage of Troughton and the Cybermen, Pertwee and the Master or Eleven and the Angels. We're in Black Orchid country at the moment and I'm waiting for the Earthshock. I'm very curious to see what the new stable of writers coming up have in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 21:22:45 GMT
I know I should make up my own mind and watch it myself, but it is precious time, and I note that respected members on this forum with Catholic (i.e broad) tastes have been dissatisfied after watching and quietly ceased commenting on recent episodes. So, to quote 'Dragons Den', as far as the current show is concerned 'I'm Out'. This is not directed at you daver, or anyone on this forum, but this is something I 've been wanting to say that your post inadvertantly touches on:
I legitimately feel great when I've seen all these pictures of kids dressing up as Thirteen, or drawing the characters or even rewatching older episodes because of seeing the new stuff. Had a massive grin from that little 'un's Rosa Parks drawing. I've shared that stuff on here because 1) I think it's really sweet, 2) people here like it and 3) it shows, beyond our own subjective opinions and tastes, this iteration of the show is speaking to someone, is providing comfort to someone, and they're not 'stupid' or 'fake' or 'a threat to us'.
Please people, tell me, am I 'not a real fan' because, even though I full respect people who have negative (or at least, harsher than mine) opinions and encourage them to be honest about it and share, I dare to be happy that 13 and her stories have resonated with people beyond myself? Because sometimes in online fandom, it feels like that.
I think I'm speaking for everyone when I say that I'm glad that the kids are loving it. However, it would be nice if most of us loved it as well.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 9, 2018 21:26:07 GMT
Halfway in and I liking it a lot if not loving it. I agree with Mark that this may well be the best TARDIS team since the 60s. I agree with David that I don't know what sets 13 apart from any other Doctor. I think Rosa was a great piece of TV. I think Anachnids in the UK is the best Doctor Who episode Chibnall has ever written. As mentioned several times, the show looks proper gorgeous. The show sounds fantastic. I hope the second half of the series builds on the first.
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