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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:44:10 GMT
I honestly can't imagine anything worse than making sure to spoil surprises in advance! As long as I am in control of whether or not I want to be spoiled - I get more engaged in the story - that's just me .
I honestly find that fascinating. How can you be in control, if, to control it...you'd need to know what the spoiler is in the first place? You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once you know. Not criticising at all, just interesting how that's the opposite of what any creative would want from an audience.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 21:44:53 GMT
This'll be a deep cut for some members, but I think a certain someone, out there, looked at the bigeneration and is now screaming 'See, that's how the War Chief CAN be the Master!'
(Cue Ainley laugh)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:46:25 GMT
This'll be a deep cut for some members, but I think a certain someone, out there, looked at the bigeneration and is now screaming 'See, that's how the War Chief CAN be the Master!' (Cue Ainley laugh) And Richard Hurndall. Though we don't need one for Bradley, we got the "you're mid regen, your face is all over the place" line. Did Romana master it and that's why she wasn't offscreen just committing suicide over and over in Destiny?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:55:06 GMT
In the midst of that lovely last TARDIS scene with the two Doctors...first time in contemporary stories they've said Sarah Jane died as well as Lis Sladen.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:57:35 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! The word "celestial" has a racial connotation???
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2023 21:58:11 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! I think Donna’s “do you come in a range of colours?” line is another odd choice. It’s completely unnecessary and is coming from a character with a black husband and daughter and likely knows of the Fugitive Doctor. When you’ve got RTD going above and beyond to stress decisions made, whether it be Davros, the Toymaker, deadnaming, etc. when the show does the opposite it really sticks out.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 22:00:11 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! The word "celestial" has a racial connotation??? Yeah, a Victorian slur for Chinese people. With Gough wearing those robes in 65... yeah, can't really argue the stars definition.
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Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2023 22:01:02 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! I think Donna’s “do you come in a range of colours?” line is another odd choice. It’s completely unnecessary and is coming from a character with a black husband and daughter and likely knows of the Fugitive Doctor. When you’ve got RTD going above and beyond to stress decisions made, whether it be Davros, the Toymaker, deadnaming, etc. when the show does the opposite it really sticks out. You also have the unfortunate optics of both the non-white Doctors (Martin and Gatwa) being relegated to “sort-of” Doctor status, with neither getting a straight A to B regeneration for them to be the Doctor.
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2023 22:04:13 GMT
From the commentary: RTD thinks all the Doctors have now separated at some point now thanks to The Toymaker's prize to The Doctor and there's older Doctors of all of them out there with no issue, he even mentions Big Finish. "They're ALL out there now, like Colin Baker once turned up to save Patrick Troughton's life". Am I the only one who has never felt the need for any explanation as to why the Doctors look older? We know the actors have aged. It just feels like unnecessary lore at that point; the Seventh Doctor’s quick line in Tales of the TARDIS felt far more elegant. Congrats to RTD for solving a problem he created I guess. Having watched Unleashed and the in-vision commentary, I think there’s a complete disconnect between what we see on screen and what RTD has said behind the scenes, twice over. In Unleashed he says Fourteen will remain on Earth and grow old with Donna and family, etc. but completely contradicts that in The Giggle by giving him a TARDIS, mention he’s already had adventures off planet with Rose, etc. In the commentary he says the bi-regeneration triggers it for all of the other Doctors, but then has Fifteen have to give Fourteen a TARDIS to be able to continue his life as the Doctor, which contradicts the notion that it would retroactively apply, I like the bi-regeneration concept a lot, I really like Seven’s line about it in Tales of the TARDIS, but it’s just not how it’s being portrayed in The Giggle and it isn’t the takeaway from most of the fanbase, let alone the general audience. I completely believe it’s not intended, but it watches as a cynical way to keep the opportunity to bring Tennant back as and when needed, rather than a wrap up to the first 60 years or establishing lore for the past. It also inadvertently makes Ncuti seem a bit like half a Doctor than THE Doctor, although I think that’ll quickly fade away, fortunately.
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Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 22:04:46 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! I've always thought of the 'Celestial' in Celestial Toymaker as meaning astral-plane-y, realm of the 'gods' sort of thing, because that's him all over. It had never occurred to me to connect it with his obvious fascination with Imperial China! Really, wake up number13 and pay attention!
The Toymaker's new persona made perfect sense for me - if The Toymaker wanted to manifest as a literal toymaker of the human kind, he would surely choose to be a 19thC German toymaker because they had many stories and legends of toymakers who construct marvellous and often creepy or malevolent creations. Right up his street!
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Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 22:09:52 GMT
The word "celestial" has a racial connotation??? Yeah, a Victorian slur for Chinese people. With Gough wearing those robes in 65... yeah, can't really argue the stars definition.
Wasn't 'The Celestial Empire' how the imperial dynasty referred to themselves for about 300-400 years, spanning Victorian times?
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Post by bonehead on Dec 9, 2023 22:10:13 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! I noticed this too. Double standards from Russell? It's not the first time this kind of thing this has happened with him. I always felt uncomfortable we were encouraged to laugh at the overweight, for instance, in stories involving Slitheen and Voyage of the Damned. And now this. Ah well, he's the boss.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 22:15:49 GMT
Yeah, a Victorian slur for Chinese people. With Gough wearing those robes in 65... yeah, can't really argue the stars definition.
Wasn't 'The Celestial Empire' how the imperial dynasty referred to themselves for about 300-400 years, spanning Victorian times? Yeah but like so many things in language, it got bent to mean something else. (Ironically enough, this is what happened to the original definition of 'woke', which comes from African-Americans.)
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 22:15:54 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! I noticed this too. Double standards from Russell? It's not the first time this kind of thing this has happened with him. I always felt uncomfortable we were encouraged to laugh at the overweight, for instance, in stories involving Slitheen and Voyage of the Damned. And now this. Ah well, he's the boss. Most definitely a man of double standards.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 22:18:03 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! The word "celestial" has a racial connotation??? As Nucleus said -yes. It's been part of the issue with the character for years. Even when BF did Solitaire there were calls for them to drop the Celestial part and lose the Asian garb. I remember on the old BF forum Nick agreed it was a mistake and should be consigned to the past with Ali Bongo and the likes. Like Talons, it's part of Who history and a good chance to learn rather than just pretend it didn't happen so I'm glad the original story isn't changing title or design for the animation. The Unleashed ep cites the "different times" for the old eps, and we do better on the new. And it's oddly not even the only Asian slur issue tonight - that Spice Girls song had to max up the sound mix to block out a line about "Yellow men in Timbuktu". You wouldn't think a Spice Girls song from the 90s would be problematic either. But shows how times change. I've heard that song a million times and never has that line stood out till the commentary tonight when RTD addressed having to cover up the slur. Amazing the stuff that's right there and most of us don't notice. A word with two meanings you didn't know one of for you, a song lyric for me...but we are learning creatures, after all! In fact, to that last line, The Doctor was a bit sanctimonious about humans base nature tonight....what was the ultimate Time Lord plan at The End Of Time again? The Doctor could learn a bit of self reflection!
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 22:18:32 GMT
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Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2023 22:20:55 GMT
The word "celestial" has a racial connotation??? As Nucleus said -yes. It's been part of the issue with the character for years. Even when BF did Solitaire there were calls for them to drop the Celestial part and lose the Asian garb. I remember on the old BF forum Nick agreed it was a mistake and should be consigned to the past with Ali Bongo and the likes. Like Talons, it's part of Who history and a good chance to learn rather than just pretend it didn't happen so I'm glad the original story isn't changing title or design for the animation. The Unleashed ep cites the "different times" for the old eps, and we do better on the new. And it's oddly not even the only Asian slur issue tonight - that Spice Girls song had to max up the sound mix to block out a line about "Yellow men in Timbuktu". You wouldn't think a Spice Girls song from the 90s would be problematic either. But shows how times change. I've heard that song a million times and never has that line stood out till the commentary tonight when RTD addressed having to cover up the slur. Amazing the stuff that's right there and most of us don't notice. A word with two meanings you didn't know one of for you, a song lyric for me...but we are learning creatures, after all! In fact, to that last line, The Doctor was a bit sanctimonious about humans base nature tonight....what was the ultimate Time Lord plan at The End Of Time again? The Doctor could learn a bit of self reflection! And yet despite putting this entirely admirable thought into such issues, RTD threw in a shout out to Mavic Chen? It feels like he sometimes has blind spots.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 22:23:29 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away! I think Donna’s “do you come in a range of colours?” line is another odd choice. It’s completely unnecessary and is coming from a character with a black husband and daughter and likely knows of the Fugitive Doctor. When you’ve got RTD going above and beyond to stress decisions made, whether it be Davros, the Toymaker, deadnaming, etc. when the show does the opposite it really sticks out. Donna had a bit of an odd line to Shirley too. "Is PARK rude?", after a line with Mel. And yep, Donna must know of Jo Martin (who I'm meeting in August, very excited...is "You've been my Avatar on the BF forum since you joined?" a bit much?) as Donna knew about Jodie due to the "new-meta-crisis". So anything up to then she would know, yeah.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 22:25:47 GMT
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2023 22:26:49 GMT
As Nucleus said -yes. It's been part of the issue with the character for years. Even when BF did Solitaire there were calls for them to drop the Celestial part and lose the Asian garb. I remember on the old BF forum Nick agreed it was a mistake and should be consigned to the past with Ali Bongo and the likes. Like Talons, it's part of Who history and a good chance to learn rather than just pretend it didn't happen so I'm glad the original story isn't changing title or design for the animation. The Unleashed ep cites the "different times" for the old eps, and we do better on the new. And it's oddly not even the only Asian slur issue tonight - that Spice Girls song had to max up the sound mix to block out a line about "Yellow men in Timbuktu". You wouldn't think a Spice Girls song from the 90s would be problematic either. But shows how times change. I've heard that song a million times and never has that line stood out till the commentary tonight when RTD addressed having to cover up the slur. Amazing the stuff that's right there and most of us don't notice. A word with two meanings you didn't know one of for you, a song lyric for me...but we are learning creatures, after all! In fact, to that last line, The Doctor was a bit sanctimonious about humans base nature tonight....what was the ultimate Time Lord plan at The End Of Time again? The Doctor could learn a bit of self reflection! And yet despite putting this entirely admirable thought into such issues, RTD threw in a shout out to Mavic Chen? It feels like he sometimes has blind spots. And I think it’s fine to have blind spots, we’re all human and we learn; it’s part of life. These things just become more prevalent when you go to so much effort to make conscious effort and justifications as to why certain decisions have been made. I wonder if there’s another sense check to be added to the scripts to really foolproof these endeavours?
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