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Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 20:33:41 GMT
To the prime viewing spot on the sofa. But not behind it. Thank Goodness your back Regards mark687 I went no further than the perfect spot in front of the TV, as we all did! Then had a few minutes to think about it all afterwards. That was fun.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 20:37:17 GMT
Where to begin? NPH was superb as The Toymaker. In fact probably the best thing in the episode. But most of it felt far too rushed, the threat to humanity largely off screen & the Spice Girls segment total cringe - not only an example of the worst tendencies of RTD but just repeating something he’d done before. In general an occasionally entertaining but, apart from the finale, forgettable episode that I found far less enjoyable than its predecessors. I probably won’t be in any rush to watch it again. As for bi-generation? Why the hell not? This is no ordinary Time Lord, this is the Timeless Child so anything goes! My only problem is that it's Tennant. He’s come back once, we have the Meta-Crisis Doctor . & now? It feels like a safety net for the show. If things aren’t working we have 10, 14 whatever you want to call him on standby. & it causes a problem for any story set on contemporary earth. Where is Tennant? Just team up with him to sort things out. His absence might be noticeable. Also the reason for the returning face? Bit of a nothing & underwhelming throwaway explanation.
& as for Ncuti. He was fun, his whole intro trouserless! The scenes between him & Tennant were great but I’m not as immediately sold on his Doctor as I was with 11 or 13. But we will see as the trailer for the Christmas special looked good. It was probably more to do with the situation than his performance. All the crazy bi-generation & comedy giant hammer magically making a 2nd TARDIS.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 20:39:39 GMT
Yes he did, and definitely blew it out of the water.
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Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 20:48:46 GMT
How great to know we're sharing this TV moment with - well, with legends. That's JO, that is, my Doctor's best friend from 50 years ago when I was a kid!
(Oh, you all knew that did you. Oh OK then. )
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 20:49:38 GMT
Also, if Tennant had been left without a TARDIS, without a sonic & maybe somehow mortal as a result of bi-generation but also happy surrounded by a family it would have been a nice call back to this line - 'Cause I'm always so certain. I'm all sonic and TARDIS and Time Lord. Take that away. Take away the toys. What am I? What am I now?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 20:51:54 GMT
Also, if Tennant had been left without a TARDIS, without a sonic & maybe somehow mortal as a result of bi-generation but also happy surrounded by a family it would have been a nice call back to this line - 'Cause I'm always so certain. I'm all sonic and TARDIS and Time Lord. Take that away. Take away the toys. What am I? What am I now?Mortal, no TARDIS, no sonic, no family? You'd only be saying he's just the meta-crisis Doctor then.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 20:54:13 GMT
Maybe, and I’m seeing that a lot. But honestly I never felt the Curator needed any kind of origin. It’s like the Memory TARDIS of Tales of the TARDIS. Fundamentally a plot device cloaked in enigma, which gets a lot less interesting the more you examine it. Yet it's only - as of now - an origin, and a good one, of The Curator if you want it to be. It does set off the "just the old favourites..." perfectly. But if you don't want it, it's not an origin.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 20:58:11 GMT
Also, if Tennant had been left without a TARDIS, without a sonic & maybe somehow mortal as a result of bi-generation but also happy surrounded by a family it would have been a nice call back to this line - 'Cause I'm always so certain. I'm all sonic and TARDIS and Time Lord. Take that away. Take away the toys. What am I? What am I now?Mortal, no TARDIS, no sonic, no family? You'd only be saying he's just the meta-crisis Doctor then. I agree it would have been too much like meta-crisis. The episode was already a bit tood derivative of previous RTD finales, it needed that different edge.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:02:20 GMT
Yeah... sorry to say but I didn't like it. Was going well until the bi-generation and then went downhill from there. Had all the trappings of my least favourite RTDisms. Oh well. (And not only was it bad, it straight-up contradicted EU stories with the Toymaker which is another strike against it.) Didn’t the Toymaker say something about making the Doctor’s past a puzzle? I guess you could interpret that as an explanation for those past appearances. They talk about that line in the commentary, saying it basically allows all the contradictions in the Doctors history to be true simultaneously. So they're the timeless child, eight is half-human, seven is more than just a time Lord, etc etc
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 21:02:34 GMT
Also, if Tennant had been left without a TARDIS, without a sonic & maybe somehow mortal as a result of bi-generation but also happy surrounded by a family it would have been a nice call back to this line - 'Cause I'm always so certain. I'm all sonic and TARDIS and Time Lord. Take that away. Take away the toys. What am I? What am I now?Mortal, no TARDIS, no sonic, no family? You'd only be saying he's just the meta-crisis Doctor then. Correct & that is, as I already said, why I have an issue with Tennant being the one used for this bi-generation. But it would have been more interesting to me. Then to basically have another Doctor just sat around on Earth with TARDIS etc. But I never said "no family".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:10:33 GMT
From the commentary:
Stookie Bill was the original villain but Russell couldn't find a way to make it serious.
The credits originally had David and Donna in front of the TARDIS in place of the faces in the credits. After Moffat said it was naff, RTD dropped all of it. Was also planned for Ncuti and Millie too.
RTD did at one point think of having Peter Purves in the episode. (Why not Russell?) as....a ruminant creature revealed to be Steven!
The Vlinxx will be back (as expected, this is a new UNIT set all over) - but where's Osgood?
RTD thinks all the Doctors have now separated at some point now thanks to The Toymaker's prize to The Doctor and there's older Doctors of all of them out there with no issue, he even mentions Big Finish. "They're ALL out there now, like Colin Baker once turned up to save Patrick Troughton's life".
"The Toymakers Legions...ARE coming. He's one of a pantheon"
Doctor Who is going more "out there" like The Toymaker and The Mind Robber.
RTD put the line of "I made a jigsaw out of your history" so that The Doctor could be half-human for a bit when he was first Paul McGann, for when they were a Timeless child or for anything that may have happened which caused canon debates. All retconned, neatly!
Russell is done with post-regen trauma eps, so wanted Ncuti to hit the ground running. I can't agree more with hating the post regen trauma. Gimme Eleventh Hour like any day.
The Toymaker in his banished box will be mentioned in the next series.
The 14th Doctor needed to retire, to "get better".
The 14th's TARDIS is a copy but there's "proof" that Ncuti has the old one coming up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:16:30 GMT
Mortal, no TARDIS, no sonic, no family? You'd only be saying he's just the meta-crisis Doctor then. Correct & that is, as I already said, why I have an issue with Tennant being the one used for this bi-generation. But it would have been more interesting to me. Then to basically have another Doctor just sat around on Earth with TARDIS etc. But I never said "no family". Well, he gets a new family on Pete's Earth too, so that'd just be another thing that was the same. No TARDIS, no sonic - new family
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Post by timleschild on Dec 9, 2023 21:18:00 GMT
Correct & that is, as I already said, why I have an issue with Tennant being the one used for this bi-generation. But it would have been more interesting to me. Then to basically have another Doctor just sat around on Earth with TARDIS etc. But I never said "no family". Well, he gets a new family on Pete's Earth too, so that'd just be another thing that was the same. No TARDIS, no sonic - new family I know.
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Post by dasmaniac on Dec 9, 2023 21:21:30 GMT
From the commentary: Stookie Bill was the original villain but Russell couldn't find a way to make it serious. The credits originally had David and Donna in front of the TARDIS in place of the faces in the credits. After Moffat said it was naff, RTD dropped all of it. Was also planned for Ncuti and Millie too. RTD did at one point think of having Peter Purves in the episode. (Why not Russell?) as....a ruminant creature revealed to be Steven! The Vlinxx will be back (as expected, this is a new UNIT set all over) - but where's Osgood? RTD thinks all the Doctors have now separated at some point now thanks to The Toymaker's prize to The Doctor and there's older Doctors of all of them out there with no issue, he even mentions Big Finish. "They're ALL out there now, like Colin Baker once turned up to save Patrick Troughton's life". "The Toymakers Legions...ARE coming. He's one of a pantheon" Doctor Who is going more "out there" like The Toymaker and The Mind Robber. RTD put the line of "I made a jigsaw out of your history" so that The Doctor could be half-human for a bit when he was first Paul McGann, for when they were a Timeless child or for anything that may have happened which caused canon debates. All retconned, neatly! Russell is done with post-regen trauma eps, so wanted Ncuti to hit the ground running. I can't agree more with hating the post regen trauma. Gimme Eleventh Hour like any day. The Toymaker in his banished box will be mentioned in the next series. The 14th Doctor needed to retire, to "get better". The 14th's TARDIS is a copy but there's "proof" that Ncuti has the old one coming up. / Really wonderful how RTD and Moffat are huge fans of the First Doctor era. RTD's first tenure on Doctor Who was essentially a modern version of the Barry Letts run and now he wants to get back to the old "universe is mysterious" concept.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 9, 2023 21:24:12 GMT
Regards
mark687
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Dec 9, 2023 21:26:43 GMT
From the commentary: Stookie Bill was the original villain but Russell couldn't find a way to make it serious. The credits originally had David and Donna in front of the TARDIS in place of the faces in the credits. After Moffat said it was naff, RTD dropped all of it. Was also planned for Ncuti and Millie too. RTD did at one point think of having Peter Purves in the episode. (Why not Russell?) as....a ruminant creature revealed to be Steven! The Vlinxx will be back (as expected, this is a new UNIT set all over) - but where's Osgood? RTD thinks all the Doctors have now separated at some point now thanks to The Toymaker's prize to The Doctor and there's older Doctors of all of them out there with no issue, he even mentions Big Finish. "They're ALL out there now, like Colin Baker once turned up to save Patrick Troughton's life". "The Toymakers Legions...ARE coming. He's one of a pantheon" Doctor Who is going more "out there" like The Toymaker and The Mind Robber. RTD put the line of "I made a jigsaw out of your history" so that The Doctor could be half-human for a bit when he was first Paul McGann, for when they were a Timeless child or for anything that may have happened which caused canon debates. All retconned, neatly! Russell is done with post-regen trauma eps, so wanted Ncuti to hit the ground running. I can't agree more with hating the post regen trauma. Gimme Eleventh Hour like any day. The Toymaker in his banished box will be mentioned in the next series. The 14th Doctor needed to retire, to "get better". The 14th's TARDIS is a copy but there's "proof" that Ncuti has the old one coming up. / I'm thinking that Jodie's Chamaeleon Arch watch is one of the proofs? I mean "it stands to reason" (that'll bite me later) there can only be one of those, and Ncuti has it. Other notes? OSGOOD?? Exactly. Where is she? Although didn't Ingrid Oliver get married and was busy then? And why oh why would 15 stay on Earth now that it has 14 as a near permanent guardian? Move over Shirley, Scientific Adviser #2 is back to get his pay cheque. Yes, #2. Liz was the first!
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Dec 9, 2023 21:33:54 GMT
I will pretty much read the spoilers on this forum tomorrow before watching the episode.. actually.. I can guarantee that I will !
why? Because it makes me more excited to see what is happening.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Dec 9, 2023 21:34:47 GMT
I will pretty much read the spoilers on this forum tomorrow before watching the episode.. actually.. I can guarantee that I will !
I honestly can't imagine anything worse than making sure to spoil surprises in advance! As long as I am in control of whether or not I want to be spoiled - I get more engaged in the story - that's just me .
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Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2023 21:37:28 GMT
From the commentary: RTD thinks all the Doctors have now separated at some point now thanks to The Toymaker's prize to The Doctor and there's older Doctors of all of them out there with no issue, he even mentions Big Finish. "They're ALL out there now, like Colin Baker once turned up to save Patrick Troughton's life". Am I the only one who has never felt the need for any explanation as to why the Doctors look older? We know the actors have aged. It just feels like unnecessary lore at that point; the Seventh Doctor’s quick line in Tales of the TARDIS felt far more elegant. Congrats to RTD for solving a problem he created I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 21:41:28 GMT
In Unleashed, RTD addresses the Toymaker dropping the "Celestial", but keeping the word. He used the word in a different context so it loses the connotation of race from the original and just means from the stars. But RTD wanted to denote evil...so has him use a German accent. Well, then he goes into some others of course but yeah - bit of an odd choice to say you can't have "that" kind of thing in Who then go to the evil German straight away!
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