|
Post by dasmaniac on Dec 9, 2023 19:57:41 GMT
wowza! What a ride. Looking forward to the Big Finish audios once they get the license for 14!
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 19:59:35 GMT
Yep. Right on the mark.
Season One is unmistakably now Season One, as in, very much a new beginning.
(Okay, enough of that: bombastic fun and you know what - I think that ending actually fits NuWho, and dare I stretch it, maybe even a finale for the first 60 years of the show).
See, I still don't feel that. It's still just the Doctor, in the TARDIS. Nothings changed really. I'd argue it gives fans who don't like the new style a clear getting-off point while also letting the Doctor and this form of the show have an actual ending (while still leaving the rest of the show intact) in giving the eternal wanderer, the lost orphan who has thrice lost their literal and adoptive people, a home and family with no ulterior motives or schemes now (can't say that for Tecteun or the Lungbarrow lot, can you?).
And look, I've defended Chibbs many times, but I think even haters of this episode will probably concede - this is a better Timeless Child finale than anything we might've gotten in a non-covid S13.
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Dec 9, 2023 20:02:22 GMT
Regards
mark687
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 20:07:13 GMT
Quiet on here isn't it, almost like everyone is waiting for something to happen...
With just half-an-hour to go, I guess it's also time for me to make my move.
make your move? To the prime viewing spot on the sofa. But not behind it.
|
|
|
Post by ollychops on Dec 9, 2023 20:12:40 GMT
Yeah... sorry to say but I didn't like it. Was going well until the bi-generation and then went downhill from there. Had all the trappings of my least favourite RTDisms. Oh well.
(And not only was it bad, it straight-up contradicted EU stories with the Toymaker which is another strike against it.)
|
|
|
Post by dasmaniac on Dec 9, 2023 20:12:41 GMT
Presumably the 14th Doctor can regenerate again which means in the future Big Finish could create new Doctors??? Also, no more having to come up with explanations for why The Doctor is old if David Tennant returns again onscreen.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 20:17:02 GMT
I don't think that could have been improved in any way. It was brilliant.
And it was stuffed, simply stuffed with little treats for classic series fans. (I now want BF to tell us the full story of Sabalom Glitz and the bottle of whiskey!)
Did anyone else think that there were moments, certain shots from certain angles, when the face of this Toymaker looked spookily like, well, like The Toymaker? The original, as you might say.
'We could be... Celestial!'
Loved it!
And on the bigeneration, it was a scenario where they could get away with both that and duplicating the TARDIS, no questions asked and canon fully intact. From the moment Brian Hayles dreamed him up, The Celestial Toymaker can cause literally anything to happen; the laws of science and possibility don't apply to him, only the rules of the Game.
|
|
|
Post by fitzoliverj on Dec 9, 2023 20:17:40 GMT
(And not only was it bad, it straight-up contradicted EU stories with the Toymaker which is another strike against it.) I've not heard The Celestial (which does get a mention) Toymaker the whole way through, but I remember in Divided Loyalities (and I assume this is from the original story) that the first Doctor's encounter was actually his *second*
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Dec 9, 2023 20:22:59 GMT
To the prime viewing spot on the sofa. But not behind it. Thank Goodness your back Regards mark687
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2023 20:24:20 GMT
Well I wholeheartedly liked 75% of that. It’s RTD energy at its best, the Toymaker was mad and twisted in best of ways and Tennant & Tate got some real good material.
Then we hit the bi regeneration.
The bi-regeneration didn’t sit well with me when it leaked and it didn’t sit well with me on screen. Maybe I’ll warm up to it, but it feels between this and the retro-regeneration of last year that any stakes associated with regeneration are gone. Though I suppose Once and Future already made a mockery of that by introducing degeneration, as there’s no point in that series where there’s any sense of jeopardy associated with the process, it’s just an inconvenience.
As for the ending for Ten/Fourteen. Honestly if he didn’t have a TARDIS, that would sit better with me as it makes him fixed and definitively retired. But he does and it’s implied he’s already cheating on his happy ending by sneaking off to have trips. As a result there’s nothing truly stopping him being the Doctor as normal, so it feels harder for Ncuti Gatwa to be the Doctor when there’s another in the wings. And I guess we assume for all “contemporary Earth in jeopardy” finales from now on that Fourteen is just being lazy/callous by not getting involved, as there’s nothing stopping him.
Also the School Reunion problem still exists. Maybe Fourteen can’t regenerate anymore, but lifespan of an incarnation has been in hundreds of years. RTD’s resolved the fundamental arc for Ten of not being able to settle down, but hasn’t actually resolved the real problem that underlined it.
I’m sure I’ll make my peace with it when Gatwa’s in full swing. I did for the Timeless Child after all. But I feel this breaks the show in a more substantial way than that actually did.
|
|
|
Post by shallacatop on Dec 9, 2023 20:24:24 GMT
Absolutely loved it up until the bi-regeneration stuff, which I didn’t hate, it just lost me a little. Thought the Toymaker was brilliantly realised and some really creepy elements and terrific visuals. The scene where Kate has her tag deactivated was a real shock; brilliantly played by all and kudos to RTD for going the whole hog with it. Loved the use of Mel and I think it’s a nice transition between the Mel we know and love to the inevitably different version we will get with Ncuti next year.
The bi-regeneration concept is one I am actually quite fond of, especially with how it was hinted at in The Curse of Fenric Tales of the TARDIS, in which every incarnation of the Doctor has an alternate timeline / universe in which they don’t regenerate and grow older. But I think the way it’s executed in The Giggle doesn’t come across as the same thing, down to Ncuti’s Doctor having to make another TARDIS specifically for Fourteen; it views more cynical and a repetition of Journey’s End than I think was intended. Just a few tweaks and I think it would’ve stuck the landing more for me, but now I know the way it’s panned out I’ll click with it on a rewatch and all will be well.
On the subject of rewatches, I’m interested to see how these three specials will fare back-to-back. They’re one continuous story, but not quite sure they feel like it in my mind. The portrayal of Fourteen is brilliant, my favourite thing about the trio of stories, but is it a whole era? I’m not too sure; I think Wild Blue Yonder inadvertently seems like a complete diversion.
Oh and Ncuti hit the ground running, didn’t he? Fantastic turn and very clearly going to do his own thing and to hell with everything else; as it should be. Roll on Christmas!
|
|
|
Post by dasmaniac on Dec 9, 2023 20:25:09 GMT
(And not only was it bad, it straight-up contradicted EU stories with the Toymaker which is another strike against it.) I've not heard The Celestial (which does get a mention) Toymaker the whole way through, but I remember in Divided Loyalities (and I assume this is from the original story) that the first Doctor's encounter was actually his *second* I think when discussing a reality altering being like The Toymaker, time probably doesn't flow in a straight line. I think we also have to remember the Doctor Who universe has undergone significant changes over the years. Those events may actually have never occurred now.
|
|
|
Post by Star Platinum on Dec 9, 2023 20:25:52 GMT
Well, that was a bit of a laugh, wasn’t it?
What an excellent finale for these specials.
NPH was the perfect casting for the Toymaker, and I hope we haven’t seen the last of him. Davies has effortlessly updated the character, dropping the questionable baggage and giving us a refined version of the character. The toy shop segments nailed the surreal aesthetic perfectly and were a highlight of the episode.
It was wonderful seeing Bonnie Langford again as well in by far the best episode to feature Mel. It was nice seeing her again and we get an update on how she got back to earth. Though it effectively erased the whole Mel and Ace run of the main range.
Now Ncuti was excellent. I love that the mirrored reactions but from the Day of the Doctor was kept in. He owns the role and I’m very excited for his next appearance on Christmas.
Definitely the strongest of these three specials with lots of love for the past of the show while pacing the way for its very bright future.
5/5
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2023 20:27:09 GMT
Yeah... sorry to say but I didn't like it. Was going well until the bi-generation and then went downhill from there. Had all the trappings of my least favourite RTDisms. Oh well. (And not only was it bad, it straight-up contradicted EU stories with the Toymaker which is another strike against it.) Didn’t the Toymaker say something about making the Doctor’s past a puzzle? I guess you could interpret that as an explanation for those past appearances.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Dec 9, 2023 20:27:25 GMT
(And not only was it bad, it straight-up contradicted EU stories with the Toymaker which is another strike against it.) I've not heard The Celestial (which does get a mention) Toymaker the whole way through, but I remember in Divided Loyalities (and I assume this is from the original story) that the first Doctor's encounter was actually his *second* Yes, and then twice or three times more with BF, depending on how you count one of those stories because the Toymaker's presence is done in an odd way, even for him. (Odd, and excellent.)
So if we count BF as canon which of course it is, especially as one of those stories should have been on TV , that's five previous encounters, for four different Doctors.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 20:28:05 GMT
Also the School Reunion problem still exists. Maybe Fourteen can’t regenerate anymore, but lifespan of an incarnation has been in hundreds of years. RTD’s resolved the fundamental arc for Ten of not being able to settle down, but hasn’t actually resolved the real problem that underlined it. The Curator?
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 9, 2023 20:29:43 GMT
Okay, but fannish biz aside, here's something of actual substance and importance.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Dec 9, 2023 20:29:56 GMT
Also the School Reunion problem still exists. Maybe Fourteen can’t regenerate anymore, but lifespan of an incarnation has been in hundreds of years. RTD’s resolved the fundamental arc for Ten of not being able to settle down, but hasn’t actually resolved the real problem that underlined it. The Curator? Maybe, and I’m seeing that a lot. But honestly I never felt the Curator needed any kind of origin. It’s like the Memory TARDIS of Tales of the TARDIS. Fundamentally a plot device cloaked in enigma, which gets a lot less interesting the more you examine it.
|
|
|
Post by mark687 on Dec 9, 2023 20:31:11 GMT
Presumably the 14th Doctor can regenerate again which means in the future Big Finish could create new Doctors??? Also, no more having to come up with explanations for why The Doctor is old if David Tennant returns again onscreen. Interesting point unlike Meta-Crisis there was no limited Timelord abilities this time. Concept of Sideways stories would play well in expanded media and a very occasional TV Special. Regards mark687
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2023 20:31:53 GMT
Watching the In-vision commentary. I want to see Peter Purves as the Ruminant!
|
|