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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 14:48:37 GMT
I don’t think he was overly hostile, it made perfect sense for 12 to be upset. He felt like Danny was his replacement/ rival for Clara’s affections. It might not have been exactly the right way for him to go about it but it was a natural reaction to have under the circumstances. People don’t always think rationally or do exactly the right thing when it comes to matters of the heart especially if they feel hurt emotionally. I think it would have been less believable and made less sense if 12 did get along with Danny in “The Caretaker “. But you're completely ignoring that in the same episode, Capaldi's Doctor is happy to see Clara be interested in another guy - when he thinks it's the teacher who looks and dresses like Matt's Doc. So I'd read it as more evidence of the "I'm not your boyfriend..I never said it was your mistake" scene from Deep Breath, an admission from The Doctor that Matt's incarnation may have had those feelings. Capaldi was delighted to think Clara was after someone who looked the way he used to, he wasn't hurt in those scenes. Only because the other man reminded him of his previous incarnation so he felt like he could live through that relationship because he felt in a way it would mean Clara still had feelings for his previous self in a way. So while he mistakenly felt if Clara couldn’t love him in his current older harsher current form it was the next best thing for Clara to love someone who was very similar to his previous self at least as affirmation of her feelings for his last incarnation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 14:48:37 GMT
Finished Series 8, and I quite enjoyed. Aside from the Doctor’s ridiculous over hostility to Danny in The Caretaker and In the Forest being really not good, I quite enjoyed it. Though I still can’t decide what I think of Kill the Moon. One of my problems with 12 is how he treats Danny. This is the Doctor who tells everyone else to 'be kind' yet doesn't demonstrate that in his own actions, a selfish hypocritical Doctor. & Kill the Moon was dumb. That's literally his arc in S8. "Am I A Good Man?" - he doesn't even know himself. He does go from being a dick to Danny....to be willing to go to hell itself to save him if there's a chance by the end of the season. In his regeneration he says "Always try to be nice and never fail to be kind". His idea of kindness is, as we see in The Doctor Falls, staying to help a group of strangers just because they're terrified and he can make a small difference. It's not about saying nice things to people. That's where the "try to be nice" comes in. He fails at that, often - but he doesn't fail to be "kind" - he saves Davros as a child, the ultimate kindness. He uses "kind" and "nice" as two very separate terms and to miss that is to miss what defines this Doctor.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 14:49:23 GMT
One of my problems with 12 is how he treats Danny. This is the Doctor who tells everyone else to 'be kind' yet doesn't demonstrate that in his own actions, a selfish hypocritical Doctor. & Kill the Moon was dumb. That's literally his arc in S8. "Am I A Good Man?" - he doesn't even know himself. He does go from being a dick to Danny....to be willing to go to hell itself to save him if there's a chance by the end of the season. In his regeneration he says "Always try to be nice and never fail to be kind". His idea of kindness is, as we see in The Doctor Falls, staying to help a group of strangers just because they're terrified and he can make a small difference. It's not about saying nice things to people. That's where the "try to be nice" comes in. He fails at that, often - but he doesn't fail to be "kind" - he saves Davros as a child, the ultimate kindness. He uses "kind" and "nice" as two very separate terms and to miss that is to miss what defines this Doctor. Exactly
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 14:57:42 GMT
But you're completely ignoring that in the same episode, Capaldi's Doctor is happy to see Clara be interested in another guy - when he thinks it's the teacher who looks and dresses like Matt's Doc. So I'd read it as more evidence of the "I'm not your boyfriend..I never said it was your mistake" scene from Deep Breath, an admission from The Doctor that Matt's incarnation may have had those feelings. Capaldi was delighted to think Clara was after someone who looked the way he used to, he wasn't hurt in those scenes. Only because the other man reminded him of his previous incarnation so he felt like he could live through that relationship because he felt in a way it would mean Clara still had feelings for his previous self in a way. So while he mistakenly felt if Clara couldn’t love him in his current older harsher current form it was the next best thing for Clara to love someone who was very similar to his previous self at least as affirmation of her feelings for his last incarnation. I see that he likes that she's got someone who reminds him of who he was, but not that he could live vicariously through their potential relationship. I can see why reading it like that fits the relationship as you like to see it, but I don't think it's there even as subtext.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 15:02:51 GMT
Only because the other man reminded him of his previous incarnation so he felt like he could live through that relationship because he felt in a way it would mean Clara still had feelings for his previous self in a way. So while he mistakenly felt if Clara couldn’t love him in his current older harsher current form it was the next best thing for Clara to love someone who was very similar to his previous self at least as affirmation of her feelings for his last incarnation. I see that he likes that she's got someone who reminds him of who he was, but not that he could live vicariously through their potential relationship. I can see why reading it like that fits the relationship as you like to see it, but I don't think it's there even as subtext. Respectfully disagree, it’s all about the body language of the heavy wistful sigh 12 gives like: that was and could have been him with Clara. It’s not just how I like to see it, it’s intentionally how the relationship was written and performed. It just gets misinterpreted and unnoticed because of the age difference and how subtle it is. I’m going to leave it at that though because I know we are going to go around in circles otherwise.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 13, 2021 15:21:27 GMT
Respectfully disagree, it’s all about the body language of the heavy wistful sigh 12 gives like: that was and could have been him with Clara. It’s not just how I like to see it, it’s intentionally how the relationship was written and performed. It just gets misinterpreted and unnoticed because of the age difference and how subtle it is. I’m going to leave it at that though because I know we are going to go around in circles otherwise. I think we sometimes got mixed messages that we can interpret as we like - "Duty of Care" vs "Snogbox" - but we are definitely given a ball to run with, deliberately, whichever direction we choose to go with it. It's been too long since I've seen the episode, but by the time we get to Clara saying "I love you" to Danny on the phone while she's looking right straight at you-know-Who, I took away a sense that Danny wasn't really what she was after, and not only was the Doctor acting a bit jealous, but that she may even have been dating Danny in hopes of provoking that reaction.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Oct 13, 2021 15:22:05 GMT
One of my problems with 12 is how he treats Danny. This is the Doctor who tells everyone else to 'be kind' yet doesn't demonstrate that in his own actions, a selfish hypocritical Doctor. & Kill the Moon was dumb. That's literally his arc in S8. "Am I A Good Man?" - he doesn't even know himself. He does go from being a dick to Danny....to be willing to go to hell itself to save him if there's a chance by the end of the season. In his regeneration he says "Always try to be nice and never fail to be kind". His idea of kindness is, as we see in The Doctor Falls, staying to help a group of strangers just because they're terrified and he can make a small difference. It's not about saying nice things to people. That's where the "try to be nice" comes in. He fails at that, often - but he doesn't fail to be "kind" - he saves Davros as a child, the ultimate kindness. He uses "kind" and "nice" as two very separate terms and to miss that is to miss what defines this Doctor. But thats the problem, when the Doctor regenerates its not a blank slate. & having a Doctor who is a nasty person but eventually becomes a better one is not only bizarre but off-putting.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 15:23:19 GMT
That's literally his arc in S8. "Am I A Good Man?" - he doesn't even know himself. He does go from being a dick to Danny....to be willing to go to hell itself to save him if there's a chance by the end of the season. In his regeneration he says "Always try to be nice and never fail to be kind". His idea of kindness is, as we see in The Doctor Falls, staying to help a group of strangers just because they're terrified and he can make a small difference. It's not about saying nice things to people. That's where the "try to be nice" comes in. He fails at that, often - but he doesn't fail to be "kind" - he saves Davros as a child, the ultimate kindness. He uses "kind" and "nice" as two very separate terms and to miss that is to miss what defines this Doctor. But thats the problem, when the Doctor regenerates its not a blank slate. & having a Doctor who is a nasty person but eventually becomes a better one is not only bizarre but off-putting. Then why is that also the exact arch of the first Doctor?
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Oct 13, 2021 15:30:57 GMT
But thats the problem, when the Doctor regenerates its not a blank slate. & having a Doctor who is a nasty person but eventually becomes a better one is not only bizarre but off-putting. Then why is that also the exact arch of the first Doctor? Because that was the first one, a lot of things were different then - one heart, no sonic etc. For example Ian was really the heroic lead but things changed as the show progressed.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 15:34:21 GMT
Then why is that also the exact arch of the first Doctor? Because that was the first one, a lot of things were different then - one heart, no sonic etc. For example Ian was really the heroic lead but things changed as the show progressed. That may be, but I would say that the doctor growing and changing through one incarnation is far more compelling if they just stayed the same the whole time.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 13, 2021 15:38:14 GMT
Seems to me we've had a number of regenerations where The Doctor may not be a blank slate, but is certainly in a state of transition. That's often been one of my big Who gripes is meeting the new Doctor in not the most flattering of states, whether it be Sixie strangling Peri, Seven too out of it to tell Melanie from the Rani in a wig, or Twelve looking a homeless person.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 15:41:12 GMT
I see that he likes that she's got someone who reminds him of who he was, but not that he could live vicariously through their potential relationship. I can see why reading it like that fits the relationship as you like to see it, but I don't think it's there even as subtext. Respectfully disagree, it’s all about the body language of the heavy wistful sigh 12 gives like: that was and could have been him with Clara. It’s not just how I like to see it, it’s intentionally how the relationship was written and performed. It just gets misinterpreted and unnoticed because of the age difference and how subtle it is. I’m going to leave it at that though because I know we are going to go around in circles otherwise. But we go round in circles because I'll say "I don't think it's..." (opinion) but you'll say "it's intentional" (fact). It's not, I'm afraid, it's subjective. I have zero issue with romance in the show. Zero issue with the age gap (when one is an essentially immortal alien anyway, what is age?) but from years of watching David Lynch, Terrence Mallick and the likes, I'm pretty good at picking up subtext - and I don't see it here. I DO see the "duty of care" relationship from Day 1. I DO see that she's the only person he initially trusts to be his conduit to communicate normally (the cards she wrote out, the "she cares so I don't have to etc) but I see the end of the hints at romance when Matt goes. Clara's dream romantic Christmas even has...Danny in it. Not Matt OR Peter. And when The Doctor leaves his confession dial it's to Missy, not Clara. Sometimes things are so subtle..because they're not there, and it's what you bring to it that elevates it. And that's wonderful! To not just watch passively but create your own relationship with the show is great -it's what makes us fans not just viewers. The next time I get a whiff of actual romance (in the sexual sense) in the show is when River returns and he decides to stay with her on Dorrilium for decades when he didn't have to. Their timelines had finally reached that point where they could have a relationship, potentially. And when he's down in Doctor Misterio, Nardole explains it's because he's' lost River, who had to go to her destiny in the library. There's nothing wrong with "here's how I see it". But "here's how it is, and why you're wrong"? It's just gonna get people's backs up. I think we all know how married you are to the idea but you can't impose that, or tell others their views are wrong on a subjective issue. Especially one that I don't think many at all agree is there - it's hardly Ten and Rose in Season 2 I'm afraid. I know you say it's in the subtleties and we're just being blind but it's again how one reads them. Big Finish gave us a VERY romantic relationship with McGann and Charley, but it was a classically romantic one - of adventure, friendship and daring. I think that's what Moffat was going for with Capaldi and Clara (and that's just my reading) but it ties in perfectly with his "duty of care" when The Doctor realises that in her grief over Danny, he's let Clara get TOO bold. Leading to her hubris in taking on the raven in S9. In Hell Bent, both acknowledge that they've become toxic for each other the "romance" of danger when they agree to the memory wipe and Capaldi realises his duty of care means saying goodbye. Frankly I think that's a much more profound bit of writing than just "they fancy each other" from Moffat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2021 15:45:46 GMT
That's literally his arc in S8. "Am I A Good Man?" - he doesn't even know himself. He does go from being a dick to Danny....to be willing to go to hell itself to save him if there's a chance by the end of the season. In his regeneration he says "Always try to be nice and never fail to be kind". His idea of kindness is, as we see in The Doctor Falls, staying to help a group of strangers just because they're terrified and he can make a small difference. It's not about saying nice things to people. That's where the "try to be nice" comes in. He fails at that, often - but he doesn't fail to be "kind" - he saves Davros as a child, the ultimate kindness. He uses "kind" and "nice" as two very separate terms and to miss that is to miss what defines this Doctor. But thats the problem, when the Doctor regenerates its not a blank slate. & having a Doctor who is a nasty person but eventually becomes a better one is not only bizarre but off-putting. Tennant described regeneration to Wilf as dying, but then waking up as someone else. It's not a blank slate, because we know the history, but it IS very much a different person with the same memories. It's not even a new thing - Pertwee was a lot more brusque and rude than Troughton. Colin was..well, we know what he was like there. You may find it off-putting - and I imagine for some modern era only fans it was - but it's absolutely valid in the show's history.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Oct 13, 2021 16:03:49 GMT
But thats the problem, when the Doctor regenerates its not a blank slate. & having a Doctor who is a nasty person but eventually becomes a better one is not only bizarre but off-putting. Tennant described regeneration to Wilf as dying, but then waking up as someone else. It's not a blank slate, because we know the history, but it IS very much a different person with the same memories. It's not even a new thing - Pertwee was a lot more brusque and rude than Troughton. Colin was..well, we know what he was like there. You may find it off-putting - and I imagine for some modern era only fans it was - but it's absolutely valid in the show's history. Maybe. I just found 12 completely unlikeable from day one & my opinion didn't change especially given how erratic & inconsistently his character was written (along with Clara, the woman who has seen all of the Doctor's previous lives even assisted at times but suddenly didn't like it when the Doctor regenerated!)
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 16:11:12 GMT
Respectfully disagree, it’s all about the body language of the heavy wistful sigh 12 gives like: that was and could have been him with Clara. It’s not just how I like to see it, it’s intentionally how the relationship was written and performed. It just gets misinterpreted and unnoticed because of the age difference and how subtle it is. I’m going to leave it at that though because I know we are going to go around in circles otherwise. But we go round in circles because I'll say "I don't think it's..." (opinion) but you'll say "it's intentional" (fact). It's not, I'm afraid, it's subjective. I have zero issue with romance in the show. Zero issue with the age gap (when one is an essentially immortal alien anyway, what is age?) but from years of watching David Lynch, Terrence Mallick and the likes, I'm pretty good at picking up subtext - and I don't see it here. I DO see the "duty of care" relationship from Day 1. I DO see that she's the only person he initially trusts to be his conduit to communicate normally (the cards she wrote out, the "she cares so I don't have to etc) but I see the end of the hints at romance when Matt goes. Clara's dream romantic Christmas even has...Danny in it. Not Matt OR Peter. And when The Doctor leaves his confession dial it's to Missy, not Clara. Sometimes things are so subtle..because they're not there, and it's what you bring to it that elevates it. And that's wonderful! To not just watch passively but create your own relationship with the show is great -it's what makes us fans not just viewers. The next time I get a whiff of actual romance (in the sexual sense) in the show is when River returns and he decides to stay with her on Dorrilium for decades when he didn't have to. Their timelines had finally reached that point where they could have a relationship, potentially. And when he's down in Doctor Misterio, Nardole explains it's because he's' lost River, who had to go to her destiny in the library. There's nothing wrong with "here's how I see it". But "here's how it is, and why you're wrong"? It's just gonna get people's backs up. I think we all know how married you are to the idea but you can't impose that, or tell others their views are wrong on a subjective issue. Especially one that I don't think many at all agree is there - it's hardly Ten and Rose in Season 2 I'm afraid. I know you say it's in the subtleties and we're just being blind but it's again how one reads them. Big Finish gave us a VERY romantic relationship with McGann and Charley, but it was a classically romantic one - of adventure, friendship and daring. I think that's what Moffat was going for with Capaldi and Clara (and that's just my reading) but it ties in perfectly with his "duty of care" when The Doctor realises that in her grief over Danny, he's let Clara get TOO bold. Leading to her hubris in taking on the raven in S9. In Hell Bent, both acknowledge that they've become toxic for each other the "romance" of danger when they agree to the memory wipe and Capaldi realises his duty of care means saying goodbye. Frankly I think that's a much more profound bit of writing than just "they fancy each other" from Moffat. Sorry I wasn’t trying to be rude I was just saying that I have my interpretation of their relationship for a reason that it is supported by the text, it’s not something I imagined or made up out of thin air. It’s intentional and something that gets missed out on by others. Sorry if I came onto strong, sometimes I have trouble with tone in typing.The reason I said I will leave it at that is I didn’t want us to repeat our debate too much because I know it will just go around in circles since we both have very strong opposing view points on the issue of their relationship that aren’t going to change and I know we both have better things to do than get stuck in a viscous cycle of endless debate that goes no where and just causes stress.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 13, 2021 16:34:20 GMT
Respectfully disagree, it’s all about the body language of the heavy wistful sigh 12 gives like: that was and could have been him with Clara. It’s not just how I like to see it, it’s intentionally how the relationship was written and performed. It just gets misinterpreted and unnoticed because of the age difference and how subtle it is. I’m going to leave it at that though because I know we are going to go around in circles otherwise. But we go round in circles because I'll say "I don't think it's..." (opinion) but you'll say "it's intentional" (fact). It's not, I'm afraid, it's subjective. I have zero issue with romance in the show. Zero issue with the age gap (when one is an essentially immortal alien anyway, what is age?) but from years of watching David Lynch, Terrence Mallick and the likes, I'm pretty good at picking up subtext - and I don't see it here. I DO see the "duty of care" relationship from Day 1. I DO see that she's the only person he initially trusts to be his conduit to communicate normally (the cards she wrote out, the "she cares so I don't have to etc) but I see the end of the hints at romance when Matt goes. Clara's dream romantic Christmas even has...Danny in it. Not Matt OR Peter. And when The Doctor leaves his confession dial it's to Missy, not Clara. Sometimes things are so subtle..because they're not there, and it's what you bring to it that elevates it. And that's wonderful! To not just watch passively but create your own relationship with the show is great -it's what makes us fans not just viewers. The next time I get a whiff of actual romance (in the sexual sense) in the show is when River returns and he decides to stay with her on Dorrilium for decades when he didn't have to. Their timelines had finally reached that point where they could have a relationship, potentially. And when he's down in Doctor Misterio, Nardole explains it's because he's' lost River, who had to go to her destiny in the library. There's nothing wrong with "here's how I see it". But "here's how it is, and why you're wrong"? It's just gonna get people's backs up. I think we all know how married you are to the idea but you can't impose that, or tell others their views are wrong on a subjective issue. Especially one that I don't think many at all agree is there - it's hardly Ten and Rose in Season 2 I'm afraid. I know you say it's in the subtleties and we're just being blind but it's again how one reads them. Big Finish gave us a VERY romantic relationship with McGann and Charley, but it was a classically romantic one - of adventure, friendship and daring. I think that's what Moffat was going for with Capaldi and Clara (and that's just my reading) but it ties in perfectly with his "duty of care" when The Doctor realises that in her grief over Danny, he's let Clara get TOO bold. Leading to her hubris in taking on the raven in S9. In Hell Bent, both acknowledge that they've become toxic for each other the "romance" of danger when they agree to the memory wipe and Capaldi realises his duty of care means saying goodbye. Frankly I think that's a much more profound bit of writing than just "they fancy each other" from Moffat. I agree in large part with that. It always felt to me that as the Doctor changed from 11 to 12, so did the relationship with Clara. What was once a romantic love shifts to something different, and I would say, deeper. I don’t buy 12 & Clara ever wanting to be together at all. I think that ship sailed as 10 took off his bow tie. I do think there is a shared intimacy and I do think there is a lot of love but the idea of 12 & Clara ever being “together” has always struck me as absurd and the worst kind of fan shipping.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 16:40:26 GMT
But we go round in circles because I'll say "I don't think it's..." (opinion) but you'll say "it's intentional" (fact). It's not, I'm afraid, it's subjective. I have zero issue with romance in the show. Zero issue with the age gap (when one is an essentially immortal alien anyway, what is age?) but from years of watching David Lynch, Terrence Mallick and the likes, I'm pretty good at picking up subtext - and I don't see it here. I DO see the "duty of care" relationship from Day 1. I DO see that she's the only person he initially trusts to be his conduit to communicate normally (the cards she wrote out, the "she cares so I don't have to etc) but I see the end of the hints at romance when Matt goes. Clara's dream romantic Christmas even has...Danny in it. Not Matt OR Peter. And when The Doctor leaves his confession dial it's to Missy, not Clara. Sometimes things are so subtle..because they're not there, and it's what you bring to it that elevates it. And that's wonderful! To not just watch passively but create your own relationship with the show is great -it's what makes us fans not just viewers. The next time I get a whiff of actual romance (in the sexual sense) in the show is when River returns and he decides to stay with her on Dorrilium for decades when he didn't have to. Their timelines had finally reached that point where they could have a relationship, potentially. And when he's down in Doctor Misterio, Nardole explains it's because he's' lost River, who had to go to her destiny in the library. There's nothing wrong with "here's how I see it". But "here's how it is, and why you're wrong"? It's just gonna get people's backs up. I think we all know how married you are to the idea but you can't impose that, or tell others their views are wrong on a subjective issue. Especially one that I don't think many at all agree is there - it's hardly Ten and Rose in Season 2 I'm afraid. I know you say it's in the subtleties and we're just being blind but it's again how one reads them. Big Finish gave us a VERY romantic relationship with McGann and Charley, but it was a classically romantic one - of adventure, friendship and daring. I think that's what Moffat was going for with Capaldi and Clara (and that's just my reading) but it ties in perfectly with his "duty of care" when The Doctor realises that in her grief over Danny, he's let Clara get TOO bold. Leading to her hubris in taking on the raven in S9. In Hell Bent, both acknowledge that they've become toxic for each other the "romance" of danger when they agree to the memory wipe and Capaldi realises his duty of care means saying goodbye. Frankly I think that's a much more profound bit of writing than just "they fancy each other" from Moffat. I agree in large part with that. It always felt to me that as the Doctor changed from 11 to 12, so did the relationship with Clara. What was once a romantic love shifts to something different, and I would say, deeper. I don’t buy 12 & Clara ever wanting to be together at all. I think that ship sailed as 10 took off his bow tie. I do think there is a shared intimacy and I do think there is a lot of love but the idea of 12 & Clara ever being “together” has always struck me as absurd and the worst kind of fan shipping. There’s nothing wrong with shipping, it’s fun for those who do it, doesn’t hurt anyone and gives something positive to focus on that inspires art and fiction.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 13, 2021 16:42:40 GMT
I was just saying that I have my interpretation of their relationship for a reason that it is supported by the text, it’s not something I imagined or made up out of thin air. I'm sure we're all perfectly entitled to make up our own headcanons, but I definitely don't think you just imagined it or made it up out of thin air. (Personally I think my headcanon is that Clara probably isn't so shallow as to dwell on outward appearances or personality quirks and consequently probably wouldn't stop having feelings for The Doctor when Eleven changed).
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Post by timegirl on Oct 13, 2021 17:06:03 GMT
I was just saying that I have my interpretation of their relationship for a reason that it is supported by the text, it’s not something I imagined or made up out of thin air. I'm sure we're all perfectly entitled to make up our own headcanons, but I definitely don't think you just imagined it or made it up out of thin air. (Personally I think my headcanon is that Clara probably isn't so shallow as to dwell on outward appearances or personality quirks and consequently probably wouldn't stop having feelings for The Doctor when Eleven changed). 😊Exactly! I think this scene supports your feelings as well: youtu.be/sRPISGBOMhA
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Oct 13, 2021 17:30:49 GMT
I agree in large part with that. It always felt to me that as the Doctor changed from 11 to 12, so did the relationship with Clara. What was once a romantic love shifts to something different, and I would say, deeper. I don’t buy 12 & Clara ever wanting to be together at all. I think that ship sailed as 10 took off his bow tie. I do think there is a shared intimacy and I do think there is a lot of love but the idea of 12 & Clara ever being “together” has always struck me as absurd and the worst kind of fan shipping. There’s nothing wrong with shipping, it’s fun for those who do it, doesn’t hurt anyone and gives something positive to focus on that inspires art and fiction. There isn't. It's fun & has helped keep shows alive, expand the fandom, & allow people to express their creativity. However it does become a little problematic when it is seen as factual correct & the only real interpretation of characters relationships.
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