|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on May 10, 2020 9:37:59 GMT
Definitely and in the end it could be said that Brax altered her memories again, to say that she left The Doctor after The events of At Childhood's End Also Assassins suggests Brax did more than alter her memories. There, if I remember correctly, Narvin claims he’s unable to track down Ace or Brax in part because Brax has messed around with her timeline to cover his tracks, altering things as far back as her travels with the Doctor. So it could be Brax arranged the quantum anvil incident to un-do Ace’s time on Gallifrey, thus removing any links to his mission to the Obscura and his subsequent flight from the War. This, very much this. NARVIN: Braxiatel more than covered his tracks. He’s left multiple false trails, all leading precisely nowhere. I can’t even track Ace's history from her biodata anymore. The time trace is blurred and contradictory all the way back to her departure from the Doctor. ROMANA: Those are Brax's fingerprints alright. |
|
|
|
Post by masterdoctor on Sept 15, 2020 11:45:42 GMT
Anybody who has listened to Flying Henchman/Displaced, do you have any idea where it goes in chronological order. Finally looking to start a Hex listen through now that it is out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Digi on May 17, 2021 0:52:44 GMT
Do we have any thoughts on where "The Grey Man of the Mountain" sits? I really have no idea, so I was just going to throw it after The Quantum Possibility Engine", since that seems to be the most recent Sylvester release that features Ace as a regular traveling companion (excluding Dark Universe because that's clearly much later in the timeline for her). Anybody who has listened to Flying Henchman/Displaced, do you have any idea where it goes in chronological order. Finally looking to start a Hex listen through now that it is out. [8 months later] Looks like Tim's got it slotted in like so: 115 "Forty-Five" 226 "Shadow Planet" / "World Apart" 245 "Muse of Fire" 270 "The Flying Dutchman" / "Displaced" 120 "The Magic Mousetrap" |
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on May 18, 2021 21:34:24 GMT
Do we have any thoughts on where "The Grey Man of the Mountain" sits? I really have no idea, so I was just going to throw it after The Quantum Possibility Engine", since that seems to be the most recent Sylvester release that features Ace as a regular traveling companion (excluding Dark Universe because that's clearly much later in the timeline for her). Anybody who has listened to Flying Henchman/Displaced, do you have any idea where it goes in chronological order. Finally looking to start a Hex listen through now that it is out. [8 months later] Looks like Tim's got it slotted in like so: 115 "Forty-Five" 226 "Shadow Planet" / "World Apart" 245 "Muse of Fire" 270 "The Flying Dutchman" / "Displaced" 120 "The Magic Mousetrap" I really don’t think there’s much to go on tbh. I imagine it’s either somewhere between Survival and Dust Breeding, or as you suggest between The Quantum Possibility Engine and Ace’s eventual departure. Perhaps it’s worth someone asking Lizbeth Myles on Twitter or something? |
|
|
|
Post by number13 on May 18, 2021 21:42:42 GMT
Anybody who has listened to Flying Henchman/Displaced, do you have any idea where it goes in chronological order. Finally looking to start a Hex listen through now that it is out. I missed this but I couldn't resist a late 'like' for 'The Flying Henchman' - whether that was a pun or an auto-miscorrect, it's a great title!  I now want someone to write a comedy episode called exactly that. |
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Aug 10, 2021 15:30:52 GMT
I was reading some of the DWM comics recently and found out some interesting stuff:
So basically Train Flight, Battlefield, Fellow Travellers and The Mark of Mandragora all occur over the span of a few weeks during which time the
Doctor is unable to take the TARDIS away from Earth.
Which means the timeline should go
Train-Flight
Doctor Conkerer!
Living in the Past (The Doctor picks up Ace from the Cretaceous)
Battlefield
Ghost Light
The Curse of Fenric
Survival
Teenage Kicks
Fellow Travellers
Distractions
The Mark of Mandragora
The rest of the DWM comics would follow from here, with the Doctor’s ability to travel off earth restored. So basically you can’t have any stories set away from Earth in Season 26 or between Train Flight and Mark of Mandragora.
|
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Aug 11, 2021 8:36:51 GMT
I was reading some of the DWM comics recently and found out some interesting stuff: So basically Train Flight, Battlefield, Fellow Travellers and The Mark of Mandragora all occur over the span of a few weeks during which time the Doctor is unable to take the TARDIS away from Earth. Which means the timeline should go Train-Flight Doctor Conkerer! Living in the Past (The Doctor picks up Ace from the Cretaceous) Battlefield Ghost Light The Curse of Fenric Survival Teenage Kicks Fellow Travellers Distractions The Mark of Mandragora The rest of the DWM comics would follow from here, with the Doctor’s ability to travel off earth restored. So basically you can’t have any stories set away from Earth in Season 26 or between Train Flight and Mark of Mandragora. Personally I put Teenage Kicks- The Mark of Mandragora between The Curse of Fenric and Survival. Mainly cos the Timewyrm saga is kinda meant to be soon after Survival (depending on how much you trust the Seventh Doctor’s restoring of Ace’s memory, I must admit to disliking the idea he deliberately messed with it), and the third book of that saga is set on an alien planet I understand so it can’t go before Mark. Also the Secondary Control Room is still onboard the TARDIS in Distractions and Mark (and I think it’s meant to be the same version as the one the Fourth Doctor originally used, since the Mandragora is still lingering about it) and the Doctor jettisons that in the first book of the Timewyrm saga. |
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Aug 11, 2021 10:40:24 GMT
I was reading some of the DWM comics recently and found out some interesting stuff: So basically Train Flight, Battlefield, Fellow Travellers and The Mark of Mandragora all occur over the span of a few weeks during which time the Doctor is unable to take the TARDIS away from Earth. Which means the timeline should go Train-Flight Doctor Conkerer! Living in the Past (The Doctor picks up Ace from the Cretaceous) Battlefield Ghost Light The Curse of Fenric Survival Teenage Kicks Fellow Travellers Distractions The Mark of Mandragora The rest of the DWM comics would follow from here, with the Doctor’s ability to travel off earth restored. So basically you can’t have any stories set away from Earth in Season 26 or between Train Flight and Mark of Mandragora. Personally I put Teenage Kicks- The Mark of Mandragora between The Curse of Fenric and Survival. Mainly cos the Timewyrm saga is kinda meant to be soon after Survival (depending on how much you trust the Seventh Doctor’s restoring of Ace’s memory, I must admit to disliking the idea he deliberately messed with it), and the third book of that saga is set on an alien planet I understand so it can’t go before Mark. Also the Secondary Control Room is still onboard the TARDIS in Distractions and Mark (and I think it’s meant to be the same version as the one the Fourth Doctor originally used, since the Mandragora is still lingering about it) and the Doctor jettisons that in the first book of the Timewyrm saga. There’s unavoidably a big gap between Survival and Timewyrm either which way you look at it really, unless you put a huge gap between The Curse of Fenric and Survival, which doesn’t make sense either. Because The Algebra of Ice has an epilogue that’s set immediately after Timewyrm: Revelation, but also “longer than 20 months” after the main events of the book for the Doctor and Ace. The Doctor and Ace meet the Brigadier so it’s after Battlefield, there’s a reference to The Curse of Fenric, and they visit the House on Allen Road so it’s after Fellow Travellers. So basically if you keep the Timewyrm saga immediately after Survival, you’ve got to have a longer than two year gap between Fenric and Survival. It’s easier just to go with the longer gap after Survival and use the memory wipe to set Ace back to Survival. |
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Nov 7, 2022 12:59:52 GMT
So I think enough time has passed since Power for the dust to settle. I think we still have to go with multiple timelines, as it’s just irreconcilable now (Sure you could attribute Ace’s memories of their falling out to Brax, but the fact that the Master and Holo-Doctor substantiate it suggests not).
So my take on Seven’s timeline currently goes something like this. There’s almost certainly some stories I’ve missed.
Time and the Rani
Unregenerate!
Paradise Towers
We are the Daleks
The Warehouse
Terror of the Sontarans
Bang-Bang-a-Boom!
Flip-Flop
The Devil’s Footprints
Delta and the Bannermen
The Fires of Vulcan
Red
Plastic Millennium
Silver & Ice
Dragonfire
Remembrance of the Daleks
The Happiness Patrol
The Greatest Show in the Galaxy
Silver Nemesis
The Ripple Effect
Shockwave
1963: The Assassination Games
The Light at the End
DWM (A Cold Day in Hell! - Doctor Conkerer!)
The Split Infinitive
Battlefield
Relative Dementias
Ghost Light
The Curse of Fenric
Fellow Travellers
The Algebra of Ice
DWM (Distractions - Party Animals)
Police and Shreeves
Critical Mass
Seven to One
The Riparian Ripper
The Shadow Trader
Dark Convoy
Washington Burns
Doctors and Dragons
Grey Man of the Mountain
Inside Story
The Haunting of Bryck Place
Survival
Thin Ice
Crime of the Century
Animal
The Hollow Men
Forever Fallen
Earth Aid
The Girl Who Stole the Stars
Timewyrm
The Algebra of Ice [Epilogue]
The Fearmonger
The Genocide Machine
Illegal Alien
Matrix
Storm Harvest
Prime Time
Heritage
Loving the Alien
Atom Bomb Blues
Dust Breeding
Colditz
The Rapture
Hex Part 1 (The Harvest - Night Thoughts)
The Veiled Leopard
Thicker Than Water
The Sirens of Time
Harvest of the Sycorax
Hex Part 2 (The Settling - Lurkers at Sunlight’s Edge)
Black TARDIS (Robophobia - House of Blue Fire & Project Nirvana)
Hex Part 3 (Protect and Survive - Signs and Wonders)
The Armageddon Gambit
Operation Volcano
You Are The Doctor
Mel (A Life of Crime - The Quantum Possibility Engine)
-The timeline divides…somehow. Blame Faction Paradox/Council of Eight/Time War/Brax/Quantum Anvil-
Timeline-A [TV]: Mysterious falling out and later reconciliation in 2022. The initial row might be the same as the Quantum Anvil Incident, but without the follow-up in 2020. Possible some of the solo Seven stories of other timelines do happen here too.
The Power of the Doctor
Timeline-B [BBC Books]: The Quantum Anvil Incident and later reconciliation in 2020. I’ve put Eight Doctors here cos sod it it doesn’t fit with anything else and Companion Piece entirely arbitrarily. Possible some of the solo Seven stories of other timelines do happen here too.
At Childhood’s End
Companion Piece
The Eight Doctors
Timeline-C [New Adventures]: After years of rows and reconciliations with the Doctor, Ace finally departs to patrol a rift in space/time around Paris and meets an ancestor of Sorin. Possible Big Finish’s New Adventure tie-ins do happen here too.
DWM (The Chameleon Factor - The Grief)
Time’s Crucible
Ravens
Warhead
Witch Mark
Metamorphosis
Nightshade
Memorial
Cat Litter
Independence Day
Virgin New Adventures (Love and War - Lungbarrow) & DWM’s “Interweaving” stories (Pureblood - Uninvited Guest)
Notre Dame Du Temps
Timeline-D [Ground Zero]: Ace dies in the Doctor’s arms. Possible some of the solo Seven stories of other timelines happen here too.
Ground Zero
Timeline-E : After similar adventures to Timeline-C, Ace goes to Gallifrey…somehow. In a timey-wimey way, the Doctor later embroils her after she’s been dumped back on Earth mid-Time War in his scheme to capture the Eleven and they row again.
Dead Woman Walking
Nightshade [Adaptation]
Love and War [Adaptation]
The Highest Science [Adaptation]
Theatre of War [Adaptation]
All-Consuming Fire [Adaptation]
The Shadow of the Scourge
The Dark Flame
Bernice Summerfield and the Criminal Code
The Hesitation Deviation
Original Sin [Adaptation]
Cold Fusion [Adaptation]
The Trial of a Time Machine
Vanguard
The Jabari Conundrum
The Dread of Night
Damaged Goods [Adaptation]
Last of the Titans
The Psychic Circus
The Monsters of Gokroth
The Moons of Vulpana
An Alien Werewolf in London
Excelis Decays
A Thousand Tiny Wings
Klein’s Story
Survival of the Fittest
The Architects of History
The Revolution
The Lights of Skaro
The Prisoner’s Dilemma
The Triumph of Sutekh
The Shadow Heart
Dominion
Persuasion
Starlight Robbery
Daleks Among Us
The Two Masters
Warlock’s Cross
Subterfuge
Dark Universe
The Eleven
-The timelines coalesce…somehow-
Old Man Seven: [Supposition is Seven has the mission to Skaro hovering over him as a Sword of Damocles by this point, and is putting it off]
Project Lazarus
A Death in the Family [Older Seven]
Master
Return of the Daleks
Valhalla
Frozen Time
The Death Collectors
Spider’s Shadow
Kingdom of Silver
Keepsake
Twilight’s End
Collision Course
The Movie
|
|
|
|
Post by themeddlingmonk on Nov 7, 2022 15:13:10 GMT
The way I would probably divide it up is that Ace’s natural exit from the TARDIS is in Set Piece. The Council of Eight from the EDAs then retcon the PDAs and Hex era into the gap between Survival and the VNAs. The Quantum Anvil incident occurs between the PDAs and Hex but ends in a way that doesn’t result in Ace leaving the Doctor.
Ace ends up mysteriously on Gallifrey after Set Piece, with muddled memories of how exactly she got there, although believes it was probably something to do with the Doctor.
The Time War breaks out and Braxiatel takes her out of the War, wiping her memories of her time on Gallifrey (Soldier Obscura) and also making alterations to her timeline that make it further blurred and contradictory so that the Time Lords can’t track her down again with her time trace. (Assassins)
One alteration Brax makes is so that Ace didn’t leave in Set Piece and instead continued travelling with the Doctor until she was killed fighting the Lobri. (Ground Zero)
Another alteration he made was so that the Quantum anvil incident ended with the death of the Astingir and Ace deciding she needed to leave the TARDIS earlier than she should. (At Childhood's End)
He also makes a change that results in Ace leaving the TARDIS post-Hex due to a falling out with the Doctor and before they return to their natural course of the VNA timeline. (Power of the Doctor)
And finally he takes Ace from after the events of Set Piece and is responsible for her arriving on Gallifrey in the first place. (UNIT: Dominion, Intervention Earth)
And so the Ace left on Earth has all these new contradictory pasts and a muddled memory so who knows what exactly she can and can’t remember at any given point.
The Seventh Doctor himself becomes unsure of what exactly happened to Ace ultimately, but did check up on her and found that she was safe and running a charity in 21st century Earth. (The TV Movie novelisation 2021)
|
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Nov 7, 2022 17:12:39 GMT
Hmm I like the thinking there. I‘ve gone even deeper-
-NAs are the original timeline and Set Piece Ace’s departure. However Brax starts messing around with this timeline whilst manipulating Benny’s life (hence her living through second iterations of Birthright and Just War). A consequence of this slight shifting in the NA timeline is Ace now graduates from Time’s Vigilante to Time Lord-in-training…somehow.
-In their efforts to weaken the Doctor, the Council of Eight attempt to alter time to kill off Ace but it goes awry (Prime Time, Heritage, Loving the Alien). The Council make a second go of it, arranging the events of Ground Zero and putting other companions in the firing line too (as Susan, Sarah and Peri get dragged in too). As it happens only Ace dies, but that was their main goal anyway as killing Ace off this young has such a profound impact on Seven he skips most of the NAs in utter grief.
-The Eighth Doctor reverts the Council’s changes to history by defeating them, so Ace going to Gallifrey is reinstated along with rest of the Brax-shifted NA timeline.
-The outbreak of the Time War causes ripples in reality, leading to more soft changes occurring to the NA timeline (cough-Novel Adaptations-cough). For example the circumstances of the N-Form’s activation in Damaged Goods change, and instead of meeting the Doctor and Ace again in less-than-happy circumstances in Head Games, Mel meets them much earlier in A Life of Crime. The outcome of this shift is she ends up in 21st century again on much happier terms with the Doctor (so willing to attend a companion reunion, for example…) and her recent influence on the Doctor means he's much less harsher to Ace when she contemplates departing in Nightshade.
-As the Time War escalates, the Time Lords retrospectively remove much knowledge about themselves from the universe to avoid it falling into enemy hands. As a result the Aubertides never target the Doctor, erasing the original version of Human Nature (but don’t worry, the universe will more than make up for the void this leaves).
-When Brax defects from the Time War and drops Ace off on Earth his first priority is erasing Ace’s connection to him, but he can’t meddle directly cos her life and Benny’s are so paradoxically connected to his own. So he throws the Quantum Anvil into the mix by tipping off his brother the Seventh Doctor about it. What a happy accident that it throws Ace’s life into massive amounts of flux meaning how she got back to Earth now fluctuates on any given day. Sometimes she left on good terms with a device to call the Doctor in when necessary and is initially willing to help him until he goes too far again (Alien Werewolf, Dark Universe), sometimes she’s back fresh from Gallifrey and the Time War (In Remembrance) and sometimes, more often than not, she parted badly with the Doctor and hasn’t seen him in decades. (At Childhood’s End) It’s now in a constant flux with the one consistent thing being she gets back to Earth and founds A Charitable Earth. Its a perfect cover for Brax as even Narvin can’t fathom what happened here, and Ace being tied to Earth keeps her safe from the Time War as its protected by a time lock.
-The Tenth Doctor lives through a new version of Human Nature as time tries to heal post-Time War. But scars remain and as a result Daughter of Mine and Benny are aware of multiple iterations having happened and un-happened. (Shadow of the Past)
-The Thirteenth Doctor meets Ace on Earth in 2020…but then the Flux hits the Temple of Atropos and makes time go wobbly again, with a side effect being this meeting is undone.
-In the post-Flux timeline with Atropos restored, Ace once again hasn’t seen the Doctor in decades after a falling out. Enter, The Power of the Doctor.
|
|
I now want someone to write a comedy episode called exactly that.