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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 1:21:37 GMT
Okay so um
At Childhood’s End has just made Ace’s timeline even worse.
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Post by Whovitt on Feb 7, 2020 1:36:42 GMT
Okay so um At Childhood’s End has just made Ace’s timeline even worse. I mean, is that even possible?  |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 1:57:03 GMT
Okay so um At Childhood’s End has just made Ace’s timeline even worse. I mean, is that even possible? I didn’t think it was until they went and {Spoiler}
suggested that after being thrown into a Quantum Possibility Engine by the Doctor and seeing the VNAs, Gallifrey and Ground Zero as potential futures, she decides to leave the Doctor because he has manipulated her again and goes to set up A Charitable Earth. |
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Post by sherlock on Feb 7, 2020 9:24:13 GMT
I mean, is that even possible? I didn’t think it was until they went and {Spoiler}
suggested that after being thrown into a Quantum Possibility Engine by the Doctor and seeing the VNAs, Gallifrey and Ground Zero as potential futures, she decides to leave the Doctor because he has manipulated her again and goes to set up A Charitable Earth. Oh god... Is there the possibility that the engine did a number on her like Peri, where all these timeline actually co-exist somehow? |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 10:43:34 GMT
I didn’t think it was until they went and {Spoiler}
suggested that after being thrown into a Quantum Possibility Engine by the Doctor and seeing the VNAs, Gallifrey and Ground Zero as potential futures, she decides to leave the Doctor because he has manipulated her again and goes to set up A Charitable Earth. Oh god... Is there the possibility that the engine did a number on her like Peri, where all these timeline actually co-exist somehow? {Spoiler}
It doesn’t really read that way. It’s more like she sees all of her possible futures and ends up deciding to lead herself to the future she wants to experience.
It’s a plot point that is later relevant to the villains of the book who were trapped in the engine.
Only way around it seems to be assuming that Ace just doesn’t leave in the flashback, as she only says she’s going to leave; but we don’t see it happen. That’s still a huge narrative stretch though because it all connects to the main plot of the book and it’s clearly intended to explicitly be how she leaves the Doctor. |
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,672 
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 7, 2020 11:17:40 GMT
Basically the answer is, I’ve got no bloody clue where half of this stuff is supposed to go. It’d grieve me to do release order and have him go from TV Movie Seven to Just TV Seven and then back again. I almost wonder if they’re trying to recontextualise that era by making Persuasion the beginning of the end, instead of Excelis Decay, Project: Lazarus and Master. Who knows, BF probably don’t even know themselves. I think you've put your finger on it there |
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Post by sherlock on Feb 7, 2020 11:17:58 GMT
Oh god... Is there the possibility that the engine did a number on her like Peri, where all these timeline actually co-exist somehow? {Spoiler}
It doesn’t really read that way. It’s more like she sees all of her possible futures and ends up deciding to lead herself to the future she wants to experience.
It’s a plot point that is later relevant to the villains of the book who were trapped in the engine.
Only way around it seems to be assuming that Ace just doesn’t leave in the flashback, as she only says she’s going to leave; but we don’t see it happen. That’s still a huge narrative stretch though because it all connects to the main plot of the book and it’s clearly intended to explicitly be how she leaves the Doctor. Ah what a mess. {Spoiler}
What specifically does Ace get shown? |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 11:27:54 GMT
{Spoiler}
It doesn’t really read that way. It’s more like she sees all of her possible futures and ends up deciding to lead herself to the future she wants to experience.
It’s a plot point that is later relevant to the villains of the book who were trapped in the engine.
Only way around it seems to be assuming that Ace just doesn’t leave in the flashback, as she only says she’s going to leave; but we don’t see it happen. That’s still a huge narrative stretch though because it all connects to the main plot of the book and it’s clearly intended to explicitly be how she leaves the Doctor. Ah what a mess. {Spoiler}
What specifically does Ace get shown? {Spoiler}
Spacefleet
Her dancing with Sorin’s ancestor (Set Piece)
Benny
Gallifrey
Growing old and dying in the TARDIS
Ground Zero
Ace “flirting with a young man” so that could either be Hex or Jan.
All these things are shown to be in her future, and then she leaves the Doctor and chooses A Charitable Earth. |
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Post by sherlock on Feb 7, 2020 11:28:39 GMT
I think you've put your finger on it there They pretty much admit they have no idea with the timeline in the behind the scenes features of Lurkers at Sunlight’s Edge and Love and War, and nothing released since has suggested they’ve got to grips with it. |
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Post by sherlock on Feb 7, 2020 11:32:16 GMT
Ah what a mess. {Spoiler}
What specifically does Ace get shown? {Spoiler}
Spacefleet
Her dancing with Sorin’s ancestor (Set Piece)
Benny
Gallifrey
Growing old and dying in the TARDIS
Ground Zero
Ace “flirting with a young man” so that could either be Hex or Jan.
All these things are shown to be in her future, and then she leaves the Doctor and chooses A Charitable Earth. Well then {Spoiler}
I guess we have to take this at face value, and assume that the VNAs, Ground Zero, and Big Finish’s stories featuring Ace on Gallifrey are now only possible timelines.
Is there any indication of how the quantum device got there? Could we attribute this to the Time War or any of the other usual triggers for changing timelines (Brax, Faction Paradox etc)? |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 11:48:05 GMT
{Spoiler}
Spacefleet
Her dancing with Sorin’s ancestor (Set Piece)
Benny
Gallifrey
Growing old and dying in the TARDIS
Ground Zero
Ace “flirting with a young man” so that could either be Hex or Jan.
All these things are shown to be in her future, and then she leaves the Doctor and chooses A Charitable Earth. Well then {Spoiler}
I guess we have to take this at face value, and assume that the VNAs, Ground Zero, and Big Finish’s stories featuring Ace on Gallifrey are now only possible timelines.
Is there any indication of how the quantum device got there? Could we attribute this to the Time War or any of the other usual triggers for changing timelines (Brax, Faction Paradox etc)? {Spoiler}
Basically a race called the Astingear (excuse the spelling, I’ve got the audiobook) were fighting a war against a race called the Wraiths, and they used the Quantum Anvil to basically fracture the timeline of the Wraiths into infinite possibilities to the point that they could no longer interact with the real world, and they’re basically trapped within the quantum anvil which is kind of a big “end of the world death beam of energy” type thing that you see in movies.
The Doctor has been checking up on the Quantum Anvil because of how dangerous it is and he doesn’t want it to leak.
He also orchestrates Ace coming into contact with the energies of the anvil which causes her to see all of her possible futures and also gave her a connection to the Wraiths.
The Doctor reveals that he planned for her to act as a potential emissary between the Wraiths and the rest of the universe because the Doctor couldn’t do it himself. Some rubbish about him having interacted with the timelines too much or something.
Then they both accidentally cause the deaths of a group of Astingear, so that along with the fact that Ace discovers what the Doctor did to her, causes her to decide to leave him.
She also keeps having visions of possible futures and the one future that keeps reoccurring and becoming most prominent in her mind is global warming/hunger/any issues really going on, on earth which is presumably supposed to be inspiration for her setting up A Charitable Earth.
It’s also established that Ace could afford to set up A Charitable Earth because she set up a high interest savings account with 50 quid she stole from the Doctor during the events of Illegal Alien. |
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Post by sherlock on Feb 7, 2020 12:06:20 GMT
Well then {Spoiler}
I guess we have to take this at face value, and assume that the VNAs, Ground Zero, and Big Finish’s stories featuring Ace on Gallifrey are now only possible timelines.
Is there any indication of how the quantum device got there? Could we attribute this to the Time War or any of the other usual triggers for changing timelines (Brax, Faction Paradox etc)? {Spoiler}
Basically a race called the Astingear (excuse the spelling, I’ve got the audiobook) were fighting a war against a race called the Wraiths, and they used the Quantum Anvil to basically fracture the timeline of the Wraiths into infinite possibilities to the point that they could no longer interact with the real world, and they’re basically trapped within the quantum anvil which is kind of a big “end of the world death beam of energy” type thing that you see in movies.
The Doctor has been checking up on the Quantum Anvil because of how dangerous it is and he doesn’t want it to leak.
He also orchestrates Ace coming into contact with the energies of the anvil which causes her to see all of her possible futures and also gave her a connection to the Wraiths.
The Doctor reveals that he planned for her to act as a potential emissary between the Wraiths and the rest of the universe because the Doctor couldn’t do it himself. Some rubbish about him having interacted with the timelines too much or something.
Then they both accidentally cause the deaths of a group of Astingear, so that along with the fact that Ace discovers what the Doctor did to her, causes her to decide to leave him.
She also keeps having visions of possible futures and the one future that keeps reoccurring and becoming most prominent in her mind is global warming/hunger/any issues really going on, on earth which is presumably supposed to be inspiration for her setting up A Charitable Earth.
It’s also established that Ace could afford to set up A Charitable Earth because she set up a high interest savings account with 50 quid she stole from the Doctor during the events of Illegal Alien. Ok I have two possibilities already (I have too much spare time) {Spoiler}
1. Elaborate theory
-Sometime after Illegal Alien, the quantum anvil incident occurs
-The Doctor wipes Ace’s memory and restores her memory to up to Survival, he claims he did this accidentally-aka the start of Timewyrm: Genesys. She thus has no recollection of her intent to leave him.
-VNAs
-Ace somehow ends up on Gallifrey
-During the Time War, Brax takes her home and edits her memory. He removes her knowledge of the Time War, and substitutes in a different reason for her going home-retrieving the memory of the quantum anvil incident
2. Face Value
-The quantum anvil Incident happens exactly as documented, and likely intended.
-The VNAs, Ground Zero and Ace’s life on Gallifrey are all separate timelines |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 12:33:11 GMT
{Spoiler}
Basically a race called the Astingear (excuse the spelling, I’ve got the audiobook) were fighting a war against a race called the Wraiths, and they used the Quantum Anvil to basically fracture the timeline of the Wraiths into infinite possibilities to the point that they could no longer interact with the real world, and they’re basically trapped within the quantum anvil which is kind of a big “end of the world death beam of energy” type thing that you see in movies.
The Doctor has been checking up on the Quantum Anvil because of how dangerous it is and he doesn’t want it to leak.
He also orchestrates Ace coming into contact with the energies of the anvil which causes her to see all of her possible futures and also gave her a connection to the Wraiths.
The Doctor reveals that he planned for her to act as a potential emissary between the Wraiths and the rest of the universe because the Doctor couldn’t do it himself. Some rubbish about him having interacted with the timelines too much or something.
Then they both accidentally cause the deaths of a group of Astingear, so that along with the fact that Ace discovers what the Doctor did to her, causes her to decide to leave him.
She also keeps having visions of possible futures and the one future that keeps reoccurring and becoming most prominent in her mind is global warming/hunger/any issues really going on, on earth which is presumably supposed to be inspiration for her setting up A Charitable Earth.
It’s also established that Ace could afford to set up A Charitable Earth because she set up a high interest savings account with 50 quid she stole from the Doctor during the events of Illegal Alien. Ok I have two possibilities already (I have too much spare time) {Spoiler}
1. Elaborate theory
-Sometime after Illegal Alien, the quantum anvil incident occurs
-The Doctor wipes Ace’s memory and restores her memory to up to Survival, he claims he did this accidentally-aka the start of Timewyrm: Genesys. She thus has no recollection of her intent to leave him.
-VNAs
-Ace somehow ends up on Gallifrey
-During the Time War, Brax takes her home and edits her memory. He removes her knowledge of the Time War, and substitutes in a different reason for her going home-retrieving the memory of the quantum anvil incident
2. Face Value
-The quantum anvil Incident happens exactly as documented, and likely intended.
-The VNAs, Ground Zero and Ace’s life on Gallifrey are all separate timelines Yeah those were pretty much my initial theories. Other potential ideas: {Spoiler}
1. VNA Timeline Ace later gets extracted Piscon Peri style and is sent to Gallifrey. I mean it makes sense as she doesn’t actually know how she ended up on Gallifrey, so she could have been a potential future plucked from Ace and left on Gallifrey.
2. Quantum Anvil Ace is the alternate universe Ace from Loving the Alien. When the Eighth Doctor defeats the Council of Eight, the original Ace never dies and thus pops back into the TARDIS as though she’d never been gone, then goes on to experience the VNAs and Gallifrey. Only issue is that it’d mean there’s two Ace’s knocking about on Earth claiming to run A Charitable Earth.
3. At Childhood’s End is a result of the timeline shenanigans currently occurring in Series 12. |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 7, 2020 12:55:05 GMT
You would have thought Sophie would have at least sorted it out in some way rather than confusing it more
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 13:49:28 GMT
You would have thought Sophie would have at least sorted it out in some way rather than confusing it more Yeah, annoyingly they go half way to doing that and then decide instead of reconciling anything they’re just going to say that none of them happened because Ace decided that she didn’t want to experience those timelines. |
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Post by sherlock on Feb 7, 2020 18:52:03 GMT
{Spoiler}
So if we take At Childhood’s End on face value, the seventh Doctor’s timeline now might go something like this-
Season 24
Season 25
Shockwave
1963: The Assassination Games
DWM Comics (A Cold Day in Hell!-Living in the Past)
The Legacy of Time: The Split Infinitive
The Algebra of Ice
Season 26
Timewyrm Saga
DWM Comics (Teenage Kicks-The Mark of Mandragora)
Season 27 Lost Stories
The Hollow Men
The Colony of Lies
The Fearmonger
The Genocide Machine
Illegal Alien
Matrix
Storm Harvest
Prime Time
Heritage
Loving The Alien
Atom Bomb Blues
The timeline then divides-
Timeline-1: Old Age Ace
At Childhood’s End [Flashforward]
Timeline-2: Ace Perishes
Ground Zero
Timeline-3: Ace-Time’s Vigilante
Cat’s Cradle
DWM Comics (The Chameleon Factor-The Grief)
Independence Day
VNAs (Nightshade-Lungbarrow)
Timeline-4: Ace’s Path to Gallifrey
Dust Breeding
Colditz
The Rapture
Hex (The Harvest-Signs and Wonders)
You Are The Doctor
Mel (A Life of Crime-The Quantum Possibility Engine)
Novel Adaptations (Nightshade-Damaged Goods) & Side-Steps (The Shadow of the Scourge, The Dark Flame)
New Adventures (The Trial of a Time Machine-The Dread of Night)
Excelis Decays
Mags (The Monsters of Gokroth-An Alien Werewolf in London)
Klein (A Thousand Tiny Wings-The Architects of History)
New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield
Diary of River Song Series 2
Lonely Old Seven (Project: Lazarus-Dark Universe)
Timeline-5: Ace Goes Home
At Childhood’s End
Once Ace’s divergent fates are done, the timelines likely converge again on the Doctor’s way to Skaro, as they all pave the way to the Movie in some form. In fairness to Aldred’s theory, separating timelines like this does smooth issues like Mel’s differing reunions but it does feel a bit uncreative. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 7, 2020 19:14:44 GMT
{Spoiler}
So if we take At Childhood’s End on face value, the seventh Doctor’s timeline now might go something like this-
Season 24
Season 25
Shockwave
1963: The Assassination Games
DWM Comics (A Cold Day in Hell!-Living in the Past)
The Legacy of Time: The Split Infinitive
The Algebra of Ice
Season 26
Timewyrm Saga
DWM Comics (Teenage Kicks-The Mark of Mandragora)
Season 27 Lost Stories
The Hollow Men
The Colony of Lies
The Fearmonger
The Genocide Machine
Illegal Alien
Matrix
Storm Harvest
Prime Time
Heritage
Loving The Alien
Atom Bomb Blues
The timeline then divides-
Timeline-1: Old Age Ace
At Childhood’s End [Flashforward]
Timeline-2: Ace Perishes
Ground Zero
Timeline-3: Ace-Time’s Vigilante
Cat’s Cradle
DWM Comics (The Chameleon Factor-The Grief)
Independence Day
VNAs (Nightshade-Lungbarrow)
Timeline-4: Ace’s Path to Gallifrey
Dust Breeding
Colditz
The Rapture
Hex (The Harvest-Signs and Wonders)
You Are The Doctor
Mel (A Life of Crime-The Quantum Possibility Engine)
Novel Adaptations (Nightshade-Damaged Goods) & Side-Steps (The Shadow of the Scourge, The Dark Flame)
New Adventures (The Trial of a Time Machine-The Dread of Night)
Excelis Decays
Mags (The Monsters of Gokroth-An Alien Werewolf in London)
Klein (A Thousand Tiny Wings-The Architects of History)
New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield
Diary of River Song Series 2
Lonely Old Seven (Project: Lazarus-Dark Universe)
Timeline-5: Ace Goes Home
At Childhood’s End
Once Ace’s divergent fates are done, the timelines likely converge again on the Doctor’s way to Skaro, as they all pave the way to the Movie in some form. In fairness to Aldred’s theory, separating timelines like this does smooth issues like Mel’s differing reunions but it does feel a bit uncreative. {Spoiler}
Just want to mention that it is entirely possible for Hex and Mel to occur in the At Childhood’s End timeline, as the Hex reference could just as easily be a reference to Jan Rydd, so Ace could have already travelled with Hex by the time she comes into contact with the quantum anvil. |
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Post by constonks on Feb 7, 2020 19:33:03 GMT
Oh man I've always hated the "diverging timelines" thing (it makes the universe smaller and the Doctor's list of adventures impossible to put together) but was also really looking forward to At Childhood's End.
Honestly before this I thought there was a very easy order to put Ace's adventures in - but instead they're treated as SO IRRECONCILABLE that they need a big cosmic explanation. :/
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Post by sherlock on Feb 8, 2020 12:08:28 GMT
{Spoiler}
So if we take At Childhood’s End on face value, the seventh Doctor’s timeline now might go something like this-
Season 24
Season 25
Shockwave
1963: The Assassination Games
DWM Comics (A Cold Day in Hell!-Living in the Past)
The Legacy of Time: The Split Infinitive
The Algebra of Ice
Season 26
Timewyrm Saga
DWM Comics (Teenage Kicks-The Mark of Mandragora)
Season 27 Lost Stories
The Hollow Men
The Colony of Lies
The Fearmonger
The Genocide Machine
Illegal Alien
Matrix
Storm Harvest
Prime Time
Heritage
Loving The Alien
Atom Bomb Blues
The timeline then divides-
Timeline-1: Old Age Ace
At Childhood’s End [Flashforward]
Timeline-2: Ace Perishes
Ground Zero
Timeline-3: Ace-Time’s Vigilante
Cat’s Cradle
DWM Comics (The Chameleon Factor-The Grief)
Independence Day
VNAs (Nightshade-Lungbarrow)
Timeline-4: Ace’s Path to Gallifrey
Dust Breeding
Colditz
The Rapture
Hex (The Harvest-Signs and Wonders)
You Are The Doctor
Mel (A Life of Crime-The Quantum Possibility Engine)
Novel Adaptations (Nightshade-Damaged Goods) & Side-Steps (The Shadow of the Scourge, The Dark Flame)
New Adventures (The Trial of a Time Machine-The Dread of Night)
Excelis Decays
Mags (The Monsters of Gokroth-An Alien Werewolf in London)
Klein (A Thousand Tiny Wings-The Architects of History)
New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield
Diary of River Song Series 2
Lonely Old Seven (Project: Lazarus-Dark Universe)
Timeline-5: Ace Goes Home
At Childhood’s End
Once Ace’s divergent fates are done, the timelines likely converge again on the Doctor’s way to Skaro, as they all pave the way to the Movie in some form. In fairness to Aldred’s theory, separating timelines like this does smooth issues like Mel’s differing reunions but it does feel a bit uncreative. {Spoiler}
Just want to mention that it is entirely possible for Hex and Mel to occur in the At Childhood’s End timeline, as the Hex reference could just as easily be a reference to Jan Rydd, so Ace could have already travelled with Hex by the time she comes into contact with the quantum anvil. {Spoiler}
I wonder if the point of divergence is just after Signs and Wonders then as Ace gets similar visions of possible futures in that story. Perhaps it’s the tipping point between these futures.
The timeline then divides into either You Are The Doctor & rest of Big Finish, Cat’s Cradle & rest of VNAs, Ground Zero, the old age Ace version of events and the quantum anvil incident. |
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Post by Tim Bradley on Feb 10, 2020 15:22:18 GMT
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