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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 10, 2020 15:55:25 GMT
Yeah it’s getting to the point now that there’s so many contradictions in Seven’s timeline that it’s becoming near impossible to reconcile everything into one timeline. I believe that Sherlock intended that only the audio adaptations of the VNAs happen in the “Ace’s Path To Gallifrey” Timeline. Also something I noticed unrelated to At Childhood's End is that you’ve got The Prisoner's Dilemma during the Ace and Benny era. There’s actually a reference to Happy Endings in it, so it more than likely takes place after Lungbarrow. The Doctor and Ace begin investigating Zinc and Magda while Benny is travelling with them, but by the time the events of the story unfold Benny doesn’t seem to be with them anymore. So it’s probably meant to be at some point while the Doctor is travelling alone and he’s recruited Ace to help him resolve old business. Although I personally have it right after The Triumph of Sutekh and just imagine that Benny has gone back to teaching while the Doctor and Ace continue travelling together.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 10, 2020 16:32:33 GMT
Yeah it’s getting to the point now that there’s so many contradictions in Seven’s timeline that it’s becoming near impossible to reconcile everything into one timeline. I believe that Sherlock intended that only the audio adaptations of the VNAs happen in the “Ace’s Path To Gallifrey” Timeline. Also something I noticed unrelated to At Childhood's End is that you’ve got The Prisoner's Dilemma during the Ace and Benny era. There’s actually a reference to Happy Endings in it, so it more than likely takes place after Lungbarrow. The Doctor and Ace begin investigating Zinc and Magda while Benny is travelling with them, but by the time the events of the story unfold Benny doesn’t seem to be with them anymore. So it’s probably meant to be at some point while the Doctor is travelling alone and he’s recruited Ace to help him resolve old business. Although I personally have it right after The Triumph of Sutekh and just imagine that Benny has gone back to teaching while the Doctor and Ace continue travelling together. Yeah I think that we can use this separate timeline theory to explain discrepancies between the adaptations and original novels. In one timeline the NAs happen as originally written and Ace eventually becomes Time’s Vigilante and in Big Finish’s timeline only the adaptations happen and instead of Set Piece Ace eventually leaves the Doctor to go to the Academy (an event Big Finish seems determined not to actually depict for whatever reason). The side-steps and New Adventures boxset could go in either or both these timelines. Ah so that’s where The Prisoner’s Dilemma might fit. I had wondered about that one.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 10, 2020 17:48:52 GMT
Yeah The Prisoner’s Dilemma is an odd one, especially as it’s primarily exposition for The Key 2 Time Trilogy.
I almost wonder if Simon Guerrier was just a brief of “Prequel to Key 2 Time featuring Ace, with limited involvement from Seven” so once he’d done what he needed to with Zara’s backstory, he just had a bit of fun and tried to explain how the Hex audios could possibly come after the New Adventures or something. It’s a bit random otherwise.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Feb 10, 2020 18:30:55 GMT
Ironic, but in "All-Consuming Fire" the seventh Doctor complains that bits of his previous incarnation's life appear to be in the wrong order! If only he'd known!
(I reckon, though, it all should fit together somehow, but it's no good relying on Ace because her memories are unreliable. Alternatively, Time's Champion ought to be able to be in two places at once - which is precisely what we saw in "Day of the Doctor", when the seventh Doctor from "Battlefield" and the seventh Doctor from the TVM both turned up to save Gallifrey)
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 11, 2020 12:58:19 GMT
In my head i always think of Ground Zero from DWM being the story that leads into Ace on Gallifrey as she says she cant remember how she got there
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2020 13:59:45 GMT
In my head i always think of Ground Zero from DWM being the story that leads into Ace on Gallifrey as she says she cant remember how she got there I like that a lot. I always treated Ground Zero as a Mission to the Unknown-style cutaway episode for Fire and Brimstone with Eight, but this works really well. Particularly given Ace has, ah... *clears thought, embarassed* ...been dead before. The Time Lords killed her in Lungbarrow and uploaded her mind to the Matrix. In theory, there could be a copy of it still there in the computer. All he'd need do is jump-start her physiology and the Time Lords would have their own means of doing that. For a price. It's not unheard of for the Time Lords to alter the pasts of their agents. Usually without their consent or knowledge. Benny and Chris's own timelines are also something of a snarl thanks to the people they know. It's possible that there's one timeline that runs up until she's recruited and then her masters try for something much more "streamlined" that suits their purposes. ( Side note: I always thought Jamie going feral in The Two Doctors was part of a comprehensive conditioning process they went through. A defence mechanism that protected them long enough to be extracted. Memories could be extracted and replaced like palettes in a server room. Whatever the subject needed for that particular scenario.)
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 11, 2020 14:12:46 GMT
{The Psychic Circus} The Doctor has the TV Movie console room. He only vaguely remembers the events of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and this story seems to jog his memory. I’d definitely put this before the Mags Trilogy because of that. Possibly even right before if you look at this story as inspiring the Doctor to check up on Mags.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 11, 2020 14:14:52 GMT
{The Psychic Circus} The Doctor has the TV Movie console room. He only vaguely remembers the events of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and this story seems to jog his memory. I’d definitely put this before the Mags Trilogy because of that. Possibly even right before if you look at this story as inspiring the Doctor to check up on Mags. What console room was in the Mags trilogy?
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 11, 2020 14:15:26 GMT
In my head i always think of Ground Zero from DWM being the story that leads into Ace on Gallifrey as she says she cant remember how she got there I like that a lot. I always treated Ground Zero as a Mission to the Unknown-style cutaway episode for Fire and Brimstone with Eight, but this works really well. Particularly given Ace has, ah... *clears thought, embarassed* ...been dead before. The Time Lords killed her in Lungbarrow and uploaded her mind to the Matrix. In theory, there could be a copy of it still there in the computer. All he'd need do is jump-start her physiology and the Time Lords would have their own means of doing that. For a price. It's not unheard of for the Time Lords to alter the pasts of their agents. Usually without their consent or knowledge. Benny and Chris's own timelines are also something of a snarl thanks to the people they know. It's possible that there's one timeline that runs up until she's recruited and then her masters try for something much more "streamlined" that suits their purposes. ( Side note: I always thought Jamie going feral in The Two Doctors was part of a comprehensive conditioning process they went through. A defence mechanism that protected them long enough to be extracted. Memories could be extracted and replaced like palettes in a server room. Whatever the subject needed for that particular scenario.) Definitely and in the end it could be said that Brax altered her memories again, to say that she left The Doctor after The events of At Childhood's End
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Post by sherlock on Feb 11, 2020 14:19:23 GMT
I like that a lot. I always treated Ground Zero as a Mission to the Unknown-style cutaway episode for Fire and Brimstone with Eight, but this works really well. Particularly given Ace has, ah... *clears thought, embarassed* ...been dead before. The Time Lords killed her in Lungbarrow and uploaded her mind to the Matrix. In theory, there could be a copy of it still there in the computer. All he'd need do is jump-start her physiology and the Time Lords would have their own means of doing that. For a price. It's not unheard of for the Time Lords to alter the pasts of their agents. Usually without their consent or knowledge. Benny and Chris's own timelines are also something of a snarl thanks to the people they know. It's possible that there's one timeline that runs up until she's recruited and then her masters try for something much more "streamlined" that suits their purposes. ( Side note: I always thought Jamie going feral in The Two Doctors was part of a comprehensive conditioning process they went through. A defence mechanism that protected them long enough to be extracted. Memories could be extracted and replaced like palettes in a server room. Whatever the subject needed for that particular scenario.) Definitely and in the end it could be said that Brax altered her memories again, to say that she left The Doctor after The events of At Childhood's End Also Assassins suggests Brax did more than alter her memories. There, if I remember correctly, Narvin claims he’s unable to track down Ace or Brax in part because Brax has messed around with her timeline to cover his tracks, altering things as far back as her travels with the Doctor. So it could be Brax arranged the quantum anvil incident to un-do Ace’s time on Gallifrey, thus removing any links to his mission to the Obscura and his subsequent flight from the War.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 11, 2020 14:34:42 GMT
{The Psychic Circus} The Doctor has the TV Movie console room. He only vaguely remembers the events of The Greatest Show in the Galaxy and this story seems to jog his memory. I’d definitely put this before the Mags Trilogy because of that. Possibly even right before if you look at this story as inspiring the Doctor to check up on Mags. What console room was in the Mags trilogy? It started off as the television one and I believe it switched to the TVM one halfway through An Alien Werewolf in London.
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Post by sherlock on Feb 11, 2020 14:48:49 GMT
What console room was in the Mags trilogy? It started off as the television one and I believe it switched to the TVM one halfway through An Alien Werewolf in London. Well that complicates things. Was it changing part of the story or did the sound effects just inexplicably change?
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Feb 11, 2020 14:54:53 GMT
It started off as the television one and I believe it switched to the TVM one halfway through An Alien Werewolf in London. Well that complicates things. Was it changing part of the story or did the sound effects just inexplicably change? Well it coincides with Mags turning the lights off or something, but that might’ve just been a coincidence.
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Post by constonks on Feb 13, 2020 5:34:15 GMT
Definitely and in the end it could be said that Brax altered her memories again, to say that she left The Doctor after The events of At Childhood's End Also Assassins suggests Brax did more than alter her memories. There, if I remember correctly, Narvin claims he’s unable to track down Ace or Brax in part because Brax has messed around with her timeline to cover his tracks, altering things as far back as her travels with the Doctor. So it could be Brax arranged the quantum anvil incident to un-do Ace’s time on Gallifrey, thus removing any links to his mission to the Obscura and his subsequent flight from the War. OH MAN I TOTALLY FORGOT THAT LINE - that fixes everything! Bless you.
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Post by Digi on Apr 21, 2020 9:29:52 GMT
Oh my. This is the first time I've had a look at this timeline in a while, and...divergent timelines? What?
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Post by sherlock on Apr 21, 2020 9:34:04 GMT
Oh my. This is the first time I've had a look at this timeline in a while, and...divergent timelines? What? At Childhood’s End happened.
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Post by Digi on Apr 21, 2020 10:04:24 GMT
I'm not suggesting an alternative, but this seems unwise. With any luck, we'll have many more years of Sylvester appearances. This is going to make it a nightmare to place them.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Apr 21, 2020 12:14:16 GMT
I'm not suggesting an alternative, but this seems unwise. With any luck, we'll have many more years of Sylvester appearances. This is going to make it a nightmare to place them. I wouldn’t say so. It either fits in a specific timeline or it doesn’t.
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Post by Whovitt on May 10, 2020 7:16:39 GMT
I've got no idea what happens in At Childhood's End (I want to read it to find out), but I'd place Dead Woman Walking as right before whatever Ace's final adventure with Seven is. She's clearly had enough of the manipulations and it seem to be the penultimate manipulation to me. If he messes around with her once more, that's it.
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Post by sherlock on May 10, 2020 8:49:29 GMT
Based on that then- {Spoiler for At Childhood’s End} So I guess if it’s just prior to Ace departing due to being sick of being manipulated, Dead Woman Walking could go just before Love and War in the NA and/or Big Finish timelines or just before the flashbacks of At Childhood’s End in its timeline. Gah the multiple timelines has made things way too complicated.
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