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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 23:19:32 GMT
It's actually very easy to even fix this apparent contradiction and still have The Two Doctors take place in 6B. The Doctor and Jamie both talk about avoiding the Sontarans and the Doctor says that they'll have to go back and have that adventure later. While John Dorney said that he took that line to be a flippant comment from the Doctor, there's no need for it to be. Since the Doctor and Jamie's memories are erased at the end of The Black Hole, continuity is preserved. Their memories being erased was just to explain why Six didn't remember the Stattenheim remote control, and why Jamie didn't know about the Time Lords in The War Games. If the Doctor wasn't being flippant, then we have to assume that Jamie was returned to the Doctor with his memory restored after the end of The War Games but Zoe wasn't, the Doctor and Jamie started travelling with Victoria again, Victoria decided to take a break to study graphology again, the Doctor obtained a stattenheim remote control again, the TARDIS interior changed to the 80s look again, and the Doctor was sent to talk to Dastari again. Either there were half a dozen coincidences, or the Doctor just didn't want to give the Monk the satisfaction of knowing how much trouble he caused. Well, Margaret Waterfield does mention seeing her niece a couple times with the Second Doctor and a trip out of Vienna to study graphology in Birthright. The weakened state of the Time Lords on Gallifrey following The Three Doctors may have been the deciding factor in the Doctor's recruitment of Victoria or Zoe. Many hands make light work after all and, despite their grievances, an extra assistant would definitely have helped in their ongoing intelligence operations.
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Post by icecreamdf on May 2, 2016 23:57:29 GMT
Their memories being erased was just to explain why Six didn't remember the Stattenheim remote control, and why Jamie didn't know about the Time Lords in The War Games. If the Doctor wasn't being flippant, then we have to assume that Jamie was returned to the Doctor with his memory restored after the end of The War Games but Zoe wasn't, the Doctor and Jamie started travelling with Victoria again, Victoria decided to take a break to study graphology again, the Doctor obtained a stattenheim remote control again, the TARDIS interior changed to the 80s look again, and the Doctor was sent to talk to Dastari again. Either there were half a dozen coincidences, or the Doctor just didn't want to give the Monk the satisfaction of knowing how much trouble he caused. Well, Margaret Waterfield does mention seeing her niece a couple times with the Second Doctor and a trip out of Vienna to study graphology in Birthright. The weakened state of the Time Lords on Gallifrey following The Three Doctors may have been the deciding factor in the Doctor's recruitment of Victoria or Zoe. Many hands make light work after all and, despite their grievances, an extra assistant would definitely have helped in their ongoing intelligence operations. I don't know much about the novels, but given the reasons she left in Fury From the Deep, I don't think she would ever travel with the Doctor again. The Time Lords in The Three Doctors were clearly concurrent with the Third Doctor, and would still be the future for the Second Doctor. That's why they were initially interested in the Third Doctor, and had to go back in his timeline to find the Second Doctor. Besides, since the Sontarans didn't show up until after the Second Doctor started talking to Dastari, that means that the only way for dastari's theory to work would be if the beginning of The Two Doctors was set during The Black Hole, but Jamie and the Doctor left after seeing the Sontarans coming, before returning to about the same moment years later. I guess that could explain away Victoria learning graphology twice, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Besides, when has the Doctor ever been known to leave once the monsters arrive?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 0:23:17 GMT
Well, Margaret Waterfield does mention seeing her niece a couple times with the Second Doctor and a trip out of Vienna to study graphology in Birthright. The weakened state of the Time Lords on Gallifrey following The Three Doctors may have been the deciding factor in the Doctor's recruitment of Victoria or Zoe. Many hands make light work after all and, despite their grievances, an extra assistant would definitely have helped in their ongoing intelligence operations. I don't know much about the novels, but given the reasons she left in Fury From the Deep, I don't think she would ever travel with the Doctor again. The Time Lords in The Three Doctors were clearly concurrent with the Third Doctor, and would still be the future for the Second Doctor. That's why they were initially interested in the Third Doctor, and had to go back in his timeline to find the Second Doctor. Besides, since the Sontarans didn't show up until after the Second Doctor started talking to Dastari, that means that the only way for dastari's theory to work would be if the beginning of The Two Doctors was set during The Black Hole, but Jamie and the Doctor left after seeing the Sontarans coming, before returning to about the same moment years later. I guess that could explain away Victoria learning graphology twice, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Besides, when has the Doctor ever been known to leave once the monsters arrive? Gallifreyan chronology is... odd, to say the very least. Made all the more complicated by the fact that Romana was returned home by the Seventh Doctor, only to meet his fifth incarnation, before Seven again and that was promptly before she met the Sixth and later the Eighth. Although they exist in the constellation of Kasterborous, they're very much out of temporal sync with the rest of the universe as a defensive measure and appears to exist long into Earth's relative past. Although it's considered a treasonable offence, they're also not above revising their own local history to suit whatever political group is currently in power, so it's entirely possible that there are future members of the Celestial Intervention Agency passing along messages to their relative past. I certainly wouldn't put it past them. It's quite possible that they temporally displaced Victoria to Vienna or altered Margaret Waterfield's memories to provide the Second Doctor an alibi should Jamie grow suspicious. Besides, Jamie doesn't react in surprise to Dastari's name the first time the Doctor mentions him, so there could easily be another encounter with the Sontarans on Space Station Camera preceding the one seen in The Two Doctors. Remember, Dastari recalls the Doctor coming to the station during its inauguration bearing fraternal greetings from Gallifrey. It's not impossible that the Sontarans were there attempting to commandeer specialist technical equipment from the station for their war against the Rutans. The Doctor is said to "still" act on their instructions and the station computer recognises Sontaran craft in a hostile battle posture as well. Why not the inauguration?
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Post by icecreamdf on May 3, 2016 0:54:28 GMT
I don't know much about the novels, but given the reasons she left in Fury From the Deep, I don't think she would ever travel with the Doctor again. The Time Lords in The Three Doctors were clearly concurrent with the Third Doctor, and would still be the future for the Second Doctor. That's why they were initially interested in the Third Doctor, and had to go back in his timeline to find the Second Doctor. Besides, since the Sontarans didn't show up until after the Second Doctor started talking to Dastari, that means that the only way for dastari's theory to work would be if the beginning of The Two Doctors was set during The Black Hole, but Jamie and the Doctor left after seeing the Sontarans coming, before returning to about the same moment years later. I guess that could explain away Victoria learning graphology twice, but it just doesn't seem very likely. Besides, when has the Doctor ever been known to leave once the monsters arrive? Gallifreyan chronology is... odd, to say the very least. Made all the more complicated by the fact that Romana was returned home by the Seventh Doctor, only to meet his fifth incarnation, before Seven again and that was promptly before she met the Sixth and later the Eighth. Although they exist in the constellation of Kasterborous, they're very much out of temporal sync with the rest of the universe as a defensive measure and appears to exist long into Earth's relative past. Although it's considered a treasonable offence, they're also not above revising their own local history to suit whatever political group is currently in power, so it's entirely possible that there are future members of the Celestial Intervention Agency passing along messages to their relative past. I certainly wouldn't put it past them. It's quite possible that they temporally displaced Victoria to Vienna or altered Margaret Waterfield's memories to provide the Second Doctor an alibi should Jamie grow suspicious. Besides, Jamie doesn't react in surprise to Dastari's name the first time the Doctor mentions him, so there could easily be another encounter with the Sontarans on Space Station Camera preceding the one seen in The Two Doctors. Remember, Dastari recalls the Doctor coming to the station during its inauguration bearing fraternal greetings from Gallifrey. It's not impossible that the Sontarans were there attempting to commandeer specialist technical equipment from the station for their war against the Rutans. The Doctor is said to "still" act on their instructions and the station computer recognises Sontaran craft in a hostile battle posture as well. Why not the inauguration? So, now you want to assume that there were two occasions on which the space station was attacked by Sontarans, and on both occasions the Doctor and Jamie arrived with a stattenheim remote control while Victoria was studying graphology? It is obvious that they were referring to the events of The Two Doctors in The Black Hole. There are just too many hoops you have to jump through to say that the Two Doctors doesn't take place during that episode.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 1:43:21 GMT
Gallifreyan chronology is... odd, to say the very least. Made all the more complicated by the fact that Romana was returned home by the Seventh Doctor, only to meet his fifth incarnation, before Seven again and that was promptly before she met the Sixth and later the Eighth. Although they exist in the constellation of Kasterborous, they're very much out of temporal sync with the rest of the universe as a defensive measure and appears to exist long into Earth's relative past. Although it's considered a treasonable offence, they're also not above revising their own local history to suit whatever political group is currently in power, so it's entirely possible that there are future members of the Celestial Intervention Agency passing along messages to their relative past. I certainly wouldn't put it past them. It's quite possible that they temporally displaced Victoria to Vienna or altered Margaret Waterfield's memories to provide the Second Doctor an alibi should Jamie grow suspicious. Besides, Jamie doesn't react in surprise to Dastari's name the first time the Doctor mentions him, so there could easily be another encounter with the Sontarans on Space Station Camera preceding the one seen in The Two Doctors. Remember, Dastari recalls the Doctor coming to the station during its inauguration bearing fraternal greetings from Gallifrey. It's not impossible that the Sontarans were there attempting to commandeer specialist technical equipment from the station for their war against the Rutans. The Doctor is said to "still" act on their instructions and the station computer recognises Sontaran craft in a hostile battle posture as well. Why not the inauguration? So, now you want to assume that there were two occasions on which the space station was attacked by Sontarans, and on both occasions the Doctor and Jamie arrived with a stattenheim remote control while Victoria was studying graphology? It is obvious that they were referring to the events of The Two Doctors in The Black Hole. There are just too many hoops you have to jump through to say that the Two Doctors doesn't take place during that episode. Not really, I'm a big proponent of the Death of the Author principle and Watsonian explanations for events in stories. Authorial intention is irrelevant because the audience will interpret that story however they choose and just because it doesn't fit the writer's vision doesn't mean it is an invalid experience. That's coming from a writer too. "The Doctor is given a new companion, battles the Autons and their ally," is a description that could apply to both Spearhead from Space and Terror of the Autons; the two stories while having similar components nevertheless have very different plots. It exists all over Who: the Doctor on the run from the Daleks ( The Chase and The Daleks' Master Plan), his repeated attempts to get Tegan to Heathrow ( Four to Doomsday, et al.), the parallels between the Cyber-plots in Earthshock and Attack of the Cybermen, him being put on trial by the Time Lords ( The War Games and The Trial of a Time Lord), him being stranded twice on Alzarius in E-Space ( Full Circle and Mistfall), and the basic story of Human Nature happening to both the Seventh Doctor and the Tenth Doctor. These things do happen and given that the Doctor took some time off before returning to the CIA in World Game, it's possible the reference to Victoria studying graphology was an in-joke on his part. It's really not that hard to reconcile and if you do ignore Season 6b, then you're still left with that reference about the inauguration, which exists in the actual televised episode. Besides, it's very difficult to argue that a retcon is immutable when it's retconning a retcon.
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Post by constonks on May 3, 2016 2:54:36 GMT
Just so everyone knows exactly how 6B fits into the end of World Game:
Putting The Black Hole and World Game in the same chronology is not impossible in my mind. I see two options, one more complex than the other:
First, we just take the Doctor's flippant comment as read - they really didn't go through all of The Two Doctors at that point. This of course ignores the fact that The Black Hole is 100% meant to be the story that bookends The Two Doctors, and that it narrowly avoided having an explicit reference to the Sixth Doctor and Peri in it. But, assuming this is true, the Doctor's reference to graphology "sounding like Victoria" makes a little more sense - it's the echo of the memory left in The Black Hole.
The other option is that the Monk, being the Monk, interfered with the Doctor's timeline a little bit, by sending him to Space Station Camera and not realising that the Doctor was eventually going to end up there anyway - twice! So the Monk essentially overwrote The Two Doctors with... the events of The Two Doctors. I mean, he's not a very good meddler, is he?
Neither is 100% satisfying, and the idea that Big Finish just went "nope forget this entire section of the Doctor's life that fans and writers and the BBC have accepted" bugged me quite a bit when I got to the middle of The Black Hole. But! If we're going to fit it all together (And we should! It's more fun!), we've gotta make some compromises.
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Post by dorney on May 3, 2016 11:29:02 GMT
Season 6B has not been quashed by The Black Hole. Only the placement of The Two Doctors in Season 6B has. The Five Doctors would still need to take place after The War Games for the Second Doctor. It's actually very easy to even fix this apparent contradiction and still have The Two Doctors take place in 6B. The Doctor and Jamie both talk about avoiding the Sontarans and the Doctor says that they'll have to go back and have that adventure later. While John Dorney said that he took that line to be a flippant comment from the Doctor, there's no need for it to be. Since the Doctor and Jamie's memories are erased at the end of The Black Hole, continuity is preserved. Well, technically, it's less that I took it that way, and more that that was the intent. But to be fair, I don't think that means the listener has to take it that way, for much the same 'death of the author' reasons as below. What I am curious about, though, is why there's a need to place 2 Doctors in a 6b now? Placing 2 Docs in the Black Hole doesn't mean you can't have a 6b if you want one, you can have both if you wish. I mean, you say it's easy to 'fix this apparent contradiction' but I'm not sure what contradiction there is. What's contradicting what?
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Post by dorney on May 3, 2016 11:33:30 GMT
Just so everyone knows exactly how 6B fits into the end of World Game: Putting The Black Hole and World Game in the same chronology is not impossible in my mind. I see two options, one more complex than the other: First, we just take the Doctor's flippant comment as read - they really didn't go through all of The Two Doctors at that point. This of course ignores the fact that The Black Hole is 100% meant to be the story that bookends The Two Doctors, and that it narrowly avoided having an explicit reference to the Sixth Doctor and Peri in it. But, assuming this is true, the Doctor's reference to graphology "sounding like Victoria" makes a little more sense - it's the echo of the memory left in The Black Hole. The other option is that the Monk, being the Monk, interfered with the Doctor's timeline a little bit, by sending him to Space Station Camera and not realising that the Doctor was eventually going to end up there anyway - twice! So the Monk essentially overwrote The Two Doctors with... the events of The Two Doctors. I mean, he's not a very good meddler, is he? Neither is 100% satisfying, and the idea that Big Finish just went "nope forget this entire section of the Doctor's life that fans and writers and the BBC have accepted" bugged me quite a bit when I got to the middle of The Black Hole. But! If we're going to fit it all together (And we should! It's more fun!), we've gotta make some compromises. I'm not entirely sure that 6b is a section of the Doctor's life 'that fans and writer and the BBC have accepted'. It remains a controversial theory, so it's not all fans and writers who've accepted it, and the BBC did approve the Black Hole! I can understand the desire to fit all the stories into the same universe, but the more the series and spin-offs continue the harder this will be (I know of at least a few complications coming up!). Best just to say 'time war' and not worry about it, I find.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 11:52:35 GMT
Just so everyone knows exactly how 6B fits into the end of World Game: Putting The Black Hole and World Game in the same chronology is not impossible in my mind. I see two options, one more complex than the other: First, we just take the Doctor's flippant comment as read - they really didn't go through all of The Two Doctors at that point. This of course ignores the fact that The Black Hole is 100% meant to be the story that bookends The Two Doctors, and that it narrowly avoided having an explicit reference to the Sixth Doctor and Peri in it. But, assuming this is true, the Doctor's reference to graphology "sounding like Victoria" makes a little more sense - it's the echo of the memory left in The Black Hole. The other option is that the Monk, being the Monk, interfered with the Doctor's timeline a little bit, by sending him to Space Station Camera and not realising that the Doctor was eventually going to end up there anyway - twice! So the Monk essentially overwrote The Two Doctors with... the events of The Two Doctors. I mean, he's not a very good meddler, is he? Neither is 100% satisfying, and the idea that Big Finish just went "nope forget this entire section of the Doctor's life that fans and writers and the BBC have accepted" bugged me quite a bit when I got to the middle of The Black Hole. But! If we're going to fit it all together (And we should! It's more fun!), we've gotta make some compromises. I'm not entirely sure that 6b is a section of the Doctor's life 'that fans and writer and the BBC have accepted'. It remains a controversial theory, so it's not all fans and writers who've accepted it, and the BBC did approve the Black Hole! I can understand the desire to fit all the stories into the same universe, but the more the series and spin-offs continue the harder this will be (I know of at least a few complications coming up!). Best just to say 'time war' and not worry about it, I find. Well, the BBC accepted it for a while at least. The only reason I know about the theory at all is because it was part of the Classic Series section of the official Doctor Who website under The Discontinuity Guide entry on The Two Doctors and contained a similar hypothesis that stated two different outcomes of Dalek history existed before and after Genesis of the Daleks with the actual death and the resulting non-death of Davros. Don't forget that World Game was also published under the BBC Books Past Doctor Adventures line too. Season 6b remains one of three very touchy areas of Doctor Who alongside pre- The Unearthly Child and pre- Rose. It ultimately all just comes down to people's tastes really. There's nothing really stopping anyone from saying that The Black Hole is non-canon if it clashes too much with 6b. People are still debating the finer points of looms vs. natural birth almost twenty years on and knowing fans it isn't going to be a debate that's going to let a little thing like a "conclusive" story stop it. If anything, the more definitive it is the more likely it will be rewritten by something else that claims to be equally decisive. That said, I really do prefer the Lungbarrow route where it said the visions of the Doctor's pre-exile life were of "uncertain providence" and it was up to the reader as to whether or not you accepted it as writ or open to some revisioning; the same route was taken with Trial of the Valeyard, Davros and even the ending to Second Chances now that I remember it. Personally, I'm more inclined to accept something that gives me wiggle room as a fan than something that doesn't. Another example I can give is the Eighth Doctor's more romantic side. I was put off by the kissing in the TV Movie because it was so forced and in your face, but the Doctor's charming pseudo-romance in The Year of Intelligent Tigers and his interactions with Foreman in Interference made me warm to the idea of him having a more intimate component to his persona. It's the difference between someone grabbing you by the ear and dragging you to where they want you to be and gently grabbing your hand and talking to you while they nudge you to that point. A soft touch, rather than a sledgehammer.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 3, 2016 13:08:42 GMT
It does always depend on what stories are written and if it involves around the Five Doctors as well. Also if BF decide to adapt World Game, then that could explain its well.
Have Two Doctors as normal 2nd Doctor Timeline and then maybe a trilogy of 6b stories with the Five Doctors in between them somewhere
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Post by elkawho on May 4, 2016 2:14:13 GMT
6B bores me.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 4:26:46 GMT
I'm having a very strange Ming the Merciless moment... "Klytus, this thread bores me." What makes it weird is that I'm seeing him starting up a blog site encompassing all of Google in retaliation.
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Post by dastari on May 4, 2016 17:23:10 GMT
Just so everyone knows exactly how 6B fits into the end of World Game: Putting The Black Hole and World Game in the same chronology is not impossible in my mind. I see two options, one more complex than the other: First, we just take the Doctor's flippant comment as read - they really didn't go through all of The Two Doctors at that point. This of course ignores the fact that The Black Hole is 100% meant to be the story that bookends The Two Doctors, and that it narrowly avoided having an explicit reference to the Sixth Doctor and Peri in it. But, assuming this is true, the Doctor's reference to graphology "sounding like Victoria" makes a little more sense - it's the echo of the memory left in The Black Hole. The other option is that the Monk, being the Monk, interfered with the Doctor's timeline a little bit, by sending him to Space Station Camera and not realising that the Doctor was eventually going to end up there anyway - twice! So the Monk essentially overwrote The Two Doctors with... the events of The Two Doctors. I mean, he's not a very good meddler, is he? Neither is 100% satisfying, and the idea that Big Finish just went "nope forget this entire section of the Doctor's life that fans and writers and the BBC have accepted" bugged me quite a bit when I got to the middle of The Black Hole. But! If we're going to fit it all together (And we should! It's more fun!), we've gotta make some compromises. I'm not entirely sure that 6b is a section of the Doctor's life 'that fans and writer and the BBC have accepted'. It remains a controversial theory, so it's not all fans and writers who've accepted it, and the BBC did approve the Black Hole! I can understand the desire to fit all the stories into the same universe, but the more the series and spin-offs continue the harder this will be (I know of at least a few complications coming up!). Best just to say 'time war' and not worry about it, I find. I apologize for any confusion that my wording caused. I didn't want to speak for Simon Guerrier's intent, since he had not commented on the previous thread, so I tried to word it in a way that showed that there was evidence of the intent, but without speaking for someone who hasn't spoken here. Regarding your question, there's an obviously older Doctor behaving very out of character in the Two Doctors and his relationship with the Time Lords seems a lot stronger than what The Black Hole implies. While The Black Hole tries to get around some of these issues, it feels like a very unsatisfying explanation for it, whereas season 6B is far more elegant and explains everything (i.e. this is a much more bitter version of the 2nd Doctor since he's been forced to go on missions for the Time Lords and such). I mean, I can't imagine the season 5 version of the Doctor referring to Jamie as a mongrel as one example.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2016 9:26:13 GMT
I personally think the best way to do a 'Season 6B' adventures stories would be to make it a fresh new start for The Second Doctor - no return for Jamie, Zoe or Victoria (perhaps a reuioun with Ben and Polly during the course of an adventure) just the maverick little man on a leash working on behalf of the Time Lords and the sadness and melchaony which comes from that, with the Second Doctor given the nature of his assignments being forced to rely on the darker side of his nature and the sadness of not being the man Jamie, Zoe or Victoria knew him to be.
For me, it'd be a nice way of honouring the ending of The War Games while doing something different with the character.
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