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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 11, 2016 23:21:17 GMT
Another 'Greatest Hits' from the yesteryears of BF:
So the other day I was watching a top ten list about things that should make a leap to the new series, and one of the ideas was the Black and White Guardians, arguing that they would help balance the show's power structure and de-elevate the Doctor and the Time Lords from godhood.
Not sure how I feel about this. Like many things, it could be interesting if executed properly, but on the other hand, yes, The Doctor as a sort of Spatial Jesus-super figure has been overblown, but then reintroducing the stand ins for Space God and Space Satan isn't exactly much of an upgrade, is it? Primarily as it then begs a lot of questions about where the hell they were during the Time War (and for that matter, every major end of all existence conflict in recent Who history). Even if the Black Guardian decided to let everything burn because that's kinda his schtick, why didn't the White Guardian at least try to reach out and do something? I bet good money any revival of these two would involve an incredibly long exposition scene explaining where either of them were, and why they didn't do anything about the war that would've ended all creation (which in the White Guardian's case is sort of his job to look after).
Sound off below with your sentiments! Should they or should they not make a come back?
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Post by omega on Jun 11, 2016 23:34:44 GMT
There's some exploration of their relationship in the Key 2 Time trilogy. The White Guardian doesn't automatically mean he's good and the Black Guardian isn't always evil, there's got to be a balance between order and chaos. The White Guardian can represent what the Doctor doesn't like, total order, lack of free will and red tape everywhere, while the Black Guardian represents unpredictability and chaos.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 11, 2016 23:47:05 GMT
One thing I'm sure we could all agree on being a plus to their return would be the possibility of an awesome Capaldi speech where 12 dresses down the White Guardian, saying something to the effect of, 'You were supposed the protector of life and light and good in the universe, and you stood by and did nothing while entire civilizations, entire galaxies burned into nothing! What honestly makes you any better than the Black Guardian?!'
And then the White Guardian could retort with 'In many cultures, you yourself are a force of reckoning, Doctor. What makes YOU better than either of us?'
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jun 11, 2016 23:47:22 GMT
Moffat would make them women!
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Post by jasonward on Jun 11, 2016 23:52:59 GMT
Moffat would make them women! They are to all intents and purposes, gods, what makes you think they have any inclination to be male or female?
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Post by jasonward on Jun 11, 2016 23:56:17 GMT
Should is just too strong a word for me.
I see no reason why they "should" return, but also see no reason why they "should not" either, if there is a story to tell, and The Guardians fit the bill, then let them come, if not, then let them sit idle.
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Post by omega on Jun 12, 2016 0:00:47 GMT
Moffat would make them women! Would the Black Guardian be Amara from the most recent season of Supernatural? The White Guardian could be Elizabeth Blackmore's character introduced in the season 11 finale.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jun 12, 2016 1:16:59 GMT
So the other day I was watching a top ten list about things that should make a leap to the new series, and one of the ideas was the Black and White Guardians, arguing that they would help balance the show's power structure and de-elevate the Doctor and the Time Lords from godhood. I like this idea very much! I think I'd rather Big Finish do this with the New Series ranges, though, rather than leave it to the TV series, and in spite of how much I'd love to hear Capaldi tell off either or both of them, the tongue-lashing Tennant would give them would have to be a must-hear above all others. Not sure how I feel about this. Like many things, it could be interesting if executed properly, but on the other hand, yes, The Doctor as a sort of Spatial Jesus-super figure has been overblown, but then reintroducing the stand ins for Space God and Space Satan isn't exactly much of an upgrade, is it? I think the Guardians make good and somewhat more rational and reserved alternatives to Space Satan and Space God actually. Primarily as it then begs a lot of questions about where the hell they were during the Time War (and for that matter, every major end of all existence conflict in recent Who history). Even if the Black Guardian decided to let everything burn because that's kinda his schtick, why didn't the White Guardian at least try to reach out and do something? I bet good money any revival of these two would involve an incredibly long exposition scene explaining where either of them were, and why they didn't do anything about the war that would've ended all creation (which in the White Guardian's case is sort of his job to look after). Dunno, I think this part could be made up. Suppose during the Time War both Guardians for their own reasons are actively working at trying to keep the KTT away from the Daleks or some such, each for their own personal reasons - the White Guardian resents the chaos of the Time War, and the Black Guardian resents the level of order represented by a universe full of pepper pots all in tidy little ranks, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2016 9:59:40 GMT
Should the Guardians return to Doctor Who? Probably not. I think that their time has more or less passed on the programme. What I would like to see though is someone attempt to write in their successors and I remember someone came up with an idea that was inspired by the Endless from Neil Gaiman's The Sandman. They were called the Eternal Pantheon and there were eight in total, each embodying a fundamental element of the multiverse -- Time, Biology, Force, Spectrum, Ascension, Oblivion, Malice and Miracles. I thought that idea was altogether rather clever, heirs who had evolved in that vacuum to assume these states of power as post-apocalyptic deities born of the Last Great Time War.
The old gods are dead and Time has killed them, long live the new gods.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 12, 2016 12:14:35 GMT
I would like to see it, if it happened, although i wouldnt be surprised if it didnt.
It goes back to my story idea from the old BF forum called Bible Black, which would bring the Black Guardian to our Universe after the Time War, but possibly in a new body
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jun 12, 2016 12:31:43 GMT
I would like to see it, if it happened, although i wouldnt be surprised if it didnt. It goes back to my story idea from the old BF forum called Bible Black, which would bring the Black Guardian to our Universe after the Time War, but possibly in a new body But, only possibly in a new body?
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 12, 2016 14:11:39 GMT
There's some exploration of their relationship in the Key 2 Time trilogy. The White Guardian doesn't automatically mean he's good and the Black Guardian isn't always evil, there's got to be a balance between order and chaos. The White Guardian can represent what the Doctor doesn't like, total order, lack of free will and red tape everywhere, while the Black Guardian represents unpredictability and chaos. Craig Hinton wrote a short story for one of the old charity anthologies of fanfic making very clear that the two Guardians don't deal with good and evil: it reveals that the White Guardian championed the Daleks in order to ensure teh universe was consistent and ordered.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 12, 2016 15:05:40 GMT
I would like to see it, if it happened, although i wouldnt be surprised if it didnt. It goes back to my story idea from the old BF forum called Bible Black, which would bring the Black Guardian to our Universe after the Time War, but possibly in a new body But, only possibly in a new body? Yeah. I phrased it like that as it was to do with the story
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 12, 2016 15:50:00 GMT
One thing I'm sure we could all agree on being a plus to their return would be the possibility of an awesome Capaldi speech where 12 dresses down the White Guardian, saying something to the effect of, 'You were supposed the protector of life and light and good in the universe, and you stood by and did nothing while entire civilizations, entire galaxies burned into nothing! What honestly makes you any better than the Black Guardian?!' And then the White Guardian could retort with 'In many cultures, you yourself are a force of reckoning, Doctor. What makes YOU better than either of us?' I actually really want to see that now. Peter Capaldi would be brilliant taking on the White Guardian.
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Post by elkawho on Jun 14, 2016 3:19:39 GMT
I've been wanting the Guardians back in modern Who ever since I discovered who they were. In series 8 I was really hoping that Missy was the Black Guardian, even though all the clues were pointing to The Master. I still think that would have made more sense.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jun 15, 2016 4:21:48 GMT
Moffat would make them women! They have taken male form in the past, but there is really no reason they couldn't take female form. They aren't men or women.
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Post by omega on Jun 15, 2016 4:40:57 GMT
Moffat would make them women! They have taken male form in the past, but there is really no reason they couldn't take female form. They aren't men or women. Or get actors who don't necessarily look male or female, and say the characters are genderless. I'd suggest getting a male and female actor for each of them, but I'm not sure how that would go down.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jun 15, 2016 5:53:47 GMT
They have taken male form in the past, but there is really no reason they couldn't take female form. They aren't men or women. Or get actors who don't necessarily look male or female, and say the characters are genderless. I'd suggest getting a male and female actor for each of them, but I'm not sure how that would go down. It might be a bit confusing if there were two actors playing the same role at the same time. Of course, if you count BF, there are currently about 10 actors playing the Doctor right now, so it could work.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 16, 2016 15:31:49 GMT
Eh, they always felt more like they belonged in a comic/superhero thing than a sci-fi show. I wouldn't mind if I never heard from them again.
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Post by elkawho on Jun 17, 2016 3:01:13 GMT
Moffat would make them women! They have taken male form in the past, but there is really no reason they couldn't take female form. They aren't men or women. I actually like the idea of a Guardian taking female form than a Timelord switching genders with regeneration. In fact, I think it would be cool if the Guardians were played by a different actor or actress every time they were seen. Like they just don't have enough understanding of humanity to check the details about what they looked like the last time they had to talk to one of us.
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