Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 18:45:40 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 18:45:40 GMT
Interesting to note Tam Dalyell, former Father Of The House and an MP for over 40 years believes that MPs should vote down the invocation of Article 50 an disagree with the result in effect refusing to take the country out. I'd put the chances of that happening very, very low but worth noting that the majority of Ms voted to Remain. A vast majority indeed. So they're voting for something that the entire country knows they don't favour. It makes you think that a few possible dissenters will have been offered some rather tasty post-Cameron positions in a Boris-government to ensure the eventual vote goes as smoothly as possible.
While the Murdoch media take pains to highlight the trouble Corbyn and Labour are in, it's also interesting that we now have much more of a battle for the Tory leadership that we expected. Only a few days ago the mood seemed to be it was Boris v May and the party didn't want more candidates to cause even more division than the referendum has. That seems to have gone out the window as Stephen Crabb and Liam Fox now want to stand. Things for both Labour and the Tories could get very nasty over the next few weeks. While Boris still seems to be the Tory fave, it's hard to see an exceptional Labour candidate. Angela Eagle, early frontrunner, couldn't run a bath never mind a government. Dan Jarvis would seem to be a good pick but he's never been even Shadow-Minister for a major portfolio. That inexperience means he has a credibility gap but also means he isn't tainted with the stench of Blair-Brown and the financial crash. He'd be the one I imagine Labour will turn to if (when?) Corbyn goes.
EDIT: Literally as a I typed this, the BBC report "The BBC has been told that Angela Eagle will challenge Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of the Labour Party on Thursday."
|
|
aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,862
|
Post by aztec on Jun 29, 2016 19:05:55 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly happy that we are Brexiting, but trying to sabotage, delay or overule the results that a democratic majority of the public voted for seems a tad ludicrous and would only end up alienating people more, both Labour and the Conservatives are imploding in front of out eyes, but instead of trying to work out why the vote went the way it did, it seems they are trying to blame or ignore the public and ignore the evidence of a massive disconnect between Westminister centralization and the working classes, rural areas and Urban North England.
M.P's may think they are more intelligent than the public, but ignoring the public's wishes isn't the best way to go about things i.m.o.
Not a Labour or Conservative voter (Lib Dem actually...who are apparently going to campaign to take us back into the E.U!) but at this present moment I think our efforts would be better focused trying to deal with the issues and fallout of Brexit rather than delaying them and pretending it never happened, and I say that as a Staunch Remain voter.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 19:08:01 GMT
via mobile
aztec likes this
Post by acousticwolf on Jun 29, 2016 19:08:01 GMT
And in other news SNP's Pete Wishart asked the Speaker of the House for the SNP to be recognised as the official Opposition in Westminster as their leader has more support from her MPs than Labour at the moment. The request was turned down but how bizarre UK Politics has become over the last week. I read somewhere that the referendum has been more successful in disrupting politics than if the gunpowder plot had worked!
Strange times indeed...
Cheers
Tony
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 19:14:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 19:14:09 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly happy that we are Brexiting, but trying to sabotage, delay or overule the results that a democratic majority of the public voted for seems a tad ludicrous and would only end up alienating people more, both Labour and the Conservatives are imploding in front of out eyes, but instead of trying to work out why the vote went the way it did, it seems they are trying to blame or ignore the public and ignore the evidence of a massive disconnect between Westminister centralization and the working classes, rural areas and Urban North England. M.P's may think they are more intelligent than the public, but ignoring the public's wishes isn't the best way to go about things i.m.o. Not a Labour or Conservative voter (Lib Dem actually...who are apparently going to campaign to take us back into the E.U!) but at this present moment I think our efforts would be better focused trying to deal with the issues and fallout of Brexit rather than delaying them and pretending it never happened, and I say that as a Staunch Remain voter. I agree that the delays are going to be a problem but even Gove, chief architect of Leave, doesn't want the U to leave till 2019 or so. The process of transferring that much power requires an infrastructure that Whitehall just doesn't have. The Cameron govt simply didn't plan for Brexit actually happening. They haven't the contingencies to implement it which makes the whole thing a farce. I think we're seeing the worst of Westminister just now. Jockeying for position from all the ajor players in The Tories and Labour. It can't be a pleasant time to be a Lib-Dem. They've gone from being partners in government to being unable to gain a national headline if they paid for it. Farron's messages just don't get heard at all. Which is sad as moderate voices have to be heard these days.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 19:18:24 GMT
And in other news SNP's Pete Wishart asked the Speaker of the House for the SNP to be recognised as the official Opposition in Westminster as their leader has more support from her MPs than Labour at the moment. The request was turned down but how bizarre UK Politics has become over the last week. I read somewhere that the referendum has been more successful in disrupting politics than if the gunpowder plot had worked! Strange times indeed... Cheers Tony Part of the guidelines for being the official opposition are that you must, at all times, be ready to form a government. Corbyn has been unable to do that all week, unable to form a shadow cabinet with portfolios for business, justice and the Scotland office among those now empty. So by the rules of the book, Pete Wishart is right - Labour can't form a government right now if for whatever reason the Tories collapsed. Of course, in reality it's speakers discretion and he's not going to do that anytime soon. It is telling though that Corbyn was jeered by his own people harder than The Tories earlier on. With friends like those...
|
|
aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,862
|
Post by aztec on Jun 29, 2016 19:19:20 GMT
And in other news SNP's Pete Wishart asked the Speaker of the House for the SNP to be recognised as the official Opposition in Westminster as their leader has more support from her MPs than Labour at the moment. The request was turned down but how bizarre UK Politics has become over the last week. I read somewhere that the referendum has been more successful in disrupting politics than if the gunpowder plot had worked! Strange times indeed... Cheers Tony At this rate I'm half expecting the Monster Raving Loony party to make big gains in the next general election... Armando Iannucci was asked a few months ago whether he would ever consider bringing back The Thick Of It, he commented he didn't see the point...I'm inclined to agree UK Politics currently are so confused a satire would barely be funnier than the real thing. But let's look to the future...The Chillcot Enquiry into The Iraq War is published next week and I'm sure that will greeted warmly by everyone in Westminster
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 19:20:38 GMT
Post by jasonward on Jun 29, 2016 19:20:38 GMT
I'd rather the UK stayed United, but the SNP is completely within there rights to hold another referendum if she thinks the time is right and the UK government agrees (I understand that circumstances have changed since 2014, but it still seems way to soon...), I agree with one of Muckypup's points-maybe give it a decade to see how the UK economy stabilizes after Brexit is complete, whether the price of Oil falls anymore etc, with an increasing rise in Right leaning Euroskeptic parties across Europe and a seeming desire for some in Brussels to push the E.U ever closer in federal union, you'd have to wonder what the E.U will be like in 10 or 15 years, there's also the old economic arguments for/against Scottish independence which could be effected by whatever new trade deals the UK makes with Europe, wouldn't Scotland have to accpet the E.U? Would its economy support all the criteria needed for the lengthy process of Entrance to the E.U? One of the big arguments against Scotland leaving the UK was they wouldn't get automatic acceptance into the EU, indeed may even be excluded. Sturgeon is currently seeking to explore many options, one of which is in effect for Scotland (and possibly, Northern Ireland, The Isle of Man and others) to retain the UK's membership, for clause 50 not to used and for The UK rump parliament to just assert its sovereignty and in effect leave both the EU and those parts of the UK which wish to remain. I doubt that will actually be the route taken, but you can't expect Scotland not to be looking at all the options. As for waiting 10 years to see how things work out... that's the point, they don't want to wait and see, Sturgeon, and perhaps the Scottish people at large see their union with Europe more important than their union with England, and if they are to be forced to leave one union (as it seems they will be) why should they be further forced into which union they leave?
|
|
aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,862
|
Post by aztec on Jun 29, 2016 19:24:16 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I'm not particularly happy that we are Brexiting, but trying to sabotage, delay or overule the results that a democratic majority of the public voted for seems a tad ludicrous and would only end up alienating people more, both Labour and the Conservatives are imploding in front of out eyes, but instead of trying to work out why the vote went the way it did, it seems they are trying to blame or ignore the public and ignore the evidence of a massive disconnect between Westminister centralization and the working classes, rural areas and Urban North England. M.P's may think they are more intelligent than the public, but ignoring the public's wishes isn't the best way to go about things i.m.o. Not a Labour or Conservative voter (Lib Dem actually...who are apparently going to campaign to take us back into the E.U!) but at this present moment I think our efforts would be better focused trying to deal with the issues and fallout of Brexit rather than delaying them and pretending it never happened, and I say that as a Staunch Remain voter. I agree that the delays are going to be a problem but even Gove, chief architect of Leave, doesn't want the U to leave till 2019 or so. The process of transferring that much power requires an infrastructure that Whitehall just doesn't have. The Cameron govt simply didn't plan for Brexit actually happening. They haven't the contingencies to implement it which makes the whole thing a farce. I think we're seeing the worst of Westminister just now. Jockeying for position from all the ajor players in The Tories and Labour. It can't be a pleasant time to be a Lib-Dem. They've gone from being partners in government to being unable to gain a national headline if they paid for it. Farron's messages just don't get heard at all. Which is sad as moderate voices have to be heard these days. Cameron didn't plan for it and Boris clearly thought he wouldn't win... And yeah, the Lib Dem's are unfortunately not a big voice in this current parliament (I'm 24 so I've voted just twice, but on neither occasion did the minuscule likelihood of them gaining a majority effect my decision to vote, the Lib Dems spoke for more of my political views than any of the other major parties) but I think they might gian a resurgence in popularity amongst younger voters alienated by Brexit and as a blowback against the rise of UKIP etc.
|
|
aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,862
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 19:38:27 GMT
Post by aztec on Jun 29, 2016 19:38:27 GMT
I'd rather the UK stayed United, but the SNP is completely within there rights to hold another referendum if she thinks the time is right and the UK government agrees (I understand that circumstances have changed since 2014, but it still seems way to soon...), I agree with one of Muckypup's points-maybe give it a decade to see how the UK economy stabilizes after Brexit is complete, whether the price of Oil falls anymore etc, with an increasing rise in Right leaning Euroskeptic parties across Europe and a seeming desire for some in Brussels to push the E.U ever closer in federal union, you'd have to wonder what the E.U will be like in 10 or 15 years, there's also the old economic arguments for/against Scottish independence which could be effected by whatever new trade deals the UK makes with Europe, wouldn't Scotland have to accpet the E.U? Would its economy support all the criteria needed for the lengthy process of Entrance to the E.U? One of the big arguments against Scotland leaving the UK was they wouldn't get automatic acceptance into the EU, indeed may even be excluded. Sturgeon is currently seeking to explorer many options, one of which is in effect for Scotland (and possibly, Northern Ireland, The Isle of Man and others) to retain the UK's membership, for clause 50 not to used and for The UK rump parliament to just assert its sovereignty and in effect leave both the EU and those parts of the UK which wish to remain. I doubt that will actually be the route taken, but you can't expevt Scotland to be looking at all the options. As for waiting 10 years to see how things work out... that's the point, they don't want to wait and see, Sturgeon, and perhaps the Scottish people at large see their union with Europe more important than their union with England, and if they are to be forced to leave one union (as it seems they will be) why should they be further forced into which union they leave? Well... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980If that is an indication of how the other major E.U countries feel, it seems Sturgeon and co would have to call another indy referendum leave the UK, win it and slowly disentangle itself from the UK (which could take years) then apply successfully to the E.U (which could also take years), would the UK government allow it?, yes Scotland voted to stay (but with a much lower turnout than the 2014 referendum) but the majority in England and Wales wasn't exactly massive. It would create further economic hardship, make a currency union even less likely, possibly force budget cuts and austerity measures, and isn't Scotland already placed to have a rather large deficit by 2020? www.rt.com/uk/337076-scotland-deficit-threefold-uk/(Not trying to start a fight here or anything, merely looking at things pragmatically, if the SNP want to win a 2nd Indy ref they have to do it at the right time) (I must admit, as an Englisman completely ignorant of the Scottish politic landscape the SNP's position on the E.U always seemed a tad odd to me-leaving one Union a major, rich player on the World stage to become a minor one in a local union, personally if I was voting for independence I'd be inclined to go the whole way...)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 19:53:10 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 19:53:10 GMT
(I must admit, as an Englisman completely ignorant of the Scottish politic landscape the SNP's position on the E.U always seemed a tad odd to me-leaving one Union a major, rich player on the World stage to become a minor one in a local union, personally if I was voting for independence I'd be inclined to go the whole way...) The benefits of each partnership are completely different so wanting to retain one has no relationship with another. The EU brings many benefits of trade to Scotland that can't be guaranteed without the EU. Many Scottish farmers are subsidised by EU grants. As Alex Salmond put it "just because you get a divorce from one person doesn't mean you never want to be in a relationship again". No-one supports Independence just to be isolationists, it's a matter of "can we do better ourselves?" A Scotland free of right-wing Tory majorities, UKIP and the like would surely meet the needs and wants of her people more than having to accept UK-wide results which increasingly are in direct opposition to the way Scotland votes. Would it be a utopia? No, but neither would staying in the UK. Oh, and don't believe what the Spanish government says - they have to toe that line since they have Catalonia demanding independence. If they supported Scotland, they'd be committing political suicide by not respecting the wishes of the Catlan people.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2016 20:00:57 GMT
You've got to admire Corbyn' determination. He's just told a rally "there are many in the party who may not completely agree with the direction I want to take us". Might be the understatement of the year.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 20:35:03 GMT
Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 29, 2016 20:35:03 GMT
What should have been done, but wasn't, was the establishment of a referendum commission like Ireland has (http://www.refcom.ie/en/about-us/), though as a country with a properly written constitution it holds much more of them than here. Essentially you'd have oversight on the spin provided by both sides, and clampdowns on things like Farage's posters and the red bus. It's dull but it works.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 20:59:59 GMT
Post by jasonward on Jun 29, 2016 20:59:59 GMT
Oh, and don't believe what the Spanish government says - they have to toe that line since they have Catalonia demanding independence. If they supported Scotland, they'd be committing political suicide by not respecting the wishes of the Catlan people. The Spanish Government also want Gibraltar and I've seen more than one informed commentator saying that Spain will try to make capital out of Brexit to get control (or more control) of Gibraltar, as such Scotland showing a way for perhaps Gibraltar to also join in with whatever Scotland does is not something Spain wants to promote.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 21:03:39 GMT
Post by jasonward on Jun 29, 2016 21:03:39 GMT
Well... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36656980If that is an indication of how the other major E.U countries feel, it seems Sturgeon and co would have to call another indy referendum leave the UK, win it and slowly disentangle itself from the UK (which could take years) then apply successfully to the E.U (which could also take years), would the UK government allow it?, yes Scotland voted to stay (but with a much lower turnout than the 2014 referendum) but the majority in England and Wales wasn't exactly massive. It would create further economic hardship, make a currency union even less likely, possibly force budget cuts and austerity measures, and isn't Scotland already placed to have a rather large deficit by 2020? The various EU governments aren't even in agreement as to what constitutes a notice to the EU about leaving at the moment, as I said, I doubt the route I laid out will be the one followed by Scotland, it's just too early to say how things will go.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 29, 2016 22:30:42 GMT
Post by muckypup on Jun 29, 2016 22:30:42 GMT
Well said? I have no idea how you took anything from my post that correlates with anything you wrote. Even slightly. Nicola is the leader of Scotland's largest party at Holyrood and Westminister. She's been fighting the hatred that we've seen rising in the right and at a time when the Labour party have imploded has been the only politician with a mandate to hold the Tories to account. You call her hate-filled. Based on what? She's fought for the rights of immigrants more than any party leader. "Hate" isn't a word anyone who knows anything about her would use even those that don't support independence. You call her power-crazed. She's already the First Minister. What more power could she have? You call her opportunist? Because she is fighting for Scotland's voters to have their votes counted? She is enacting what is outlines in the party manifesto and that the voters gave her a mandate to utilise. She has outlined the eventualities that could trigger another Independence referendum many, many times. It's not her problem if you didn't listen and it certainly doesn't make her an "opportunist". Even Scottish Labour are now saying "anything" is on the table after the EU result which they were lied to by Cameron. They voted No in 2014 to stay in the EU. They now accept they were duped. Yesterday MSPs voted 92-0 in favour of Nicola pursuing avenues that would protect Scotland's place in the EU. 92-0. So please don't act like she's acting like a power-crazed opportunist - because she has the backing of the people who voted for her and the entire parliament who supported the motion. She's doing exactly what she's being asked to do by the people and the politicians alike. I would suggest using facts and not tabloid hyperbole to inform your opinions. firstly apologies if I misunderstood, but you appeared to imply that you thought independence should be later rather than soon. I cannot hope to match your grasp of your political view point or command of English (err Scottish) I do not have the ability to write & express mine here unless you want backwards words, backward sentences and unintelligible spellings, or take 48 hours to compose and re-read about 10 dozen times.....and still be called out by the word police!!!! I take exception though to being called out as not understanding any of the situation, but ignorance & others views. we come from very diffrent worlds and political view points I think. as I have said before, I do not think the current course is the right one, but cannot disagree with those who voted to leave. The world has changed in the last 30 years, and not all have been given the polical helping hand they are always promised but never delivered upon by local, central or the EU. I do dispise sturgeon, she has show nothing but contempt for anyones elses who does not share her views on indepenance. She has been a meddler and troublemaker within Westminster, not always without cause but does infuriate. I am not saying it's wrong but the woman is determined to take Scotland to independence at all cost. that's what I meant by power crazed. the views of the people have never been enough to stop her crusade even before this vote. The EU is just her current ralling cry like some kind of female William Wallace. but there are plenty of others I dispise too, if you mention anna soubry then I will rant even more. so that's it, it's horrid all this back stabbing and wars of words, we need unity and stability not toy throwing and position grabbing. that goes for all of them! i'll say no more for the fear we will all fallout, wheres the bloody doctor when you need him! on a slightly lighter note, I saw an old colleague from work yesterday and asked him what he thought about it, he said I don't F-in vote any more, whats the F-in point. I never voted to F-in go in, last time I voted to get F-in out! what have I got now F-in light bulbs I cannot see with, a F-in hoover that is crap, I am too f-in poor to go on holiday & next they want o bugger about with my F-in kettles and TV. and This guy stood to be a MP & was a local councillor when I first knew him!!!
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 30, 2016 1:15:15 GMT
Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 30, 2016 1:15:15 GMT
Oh bloody hell. Have ye all seen what the UKIP Lord Lord Pearson of Rannoch said?
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 30, 2016 9:15:36 GMT
Post by acousticwolf on Jun 30, 2016 9:15:36 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Brexit
Jun 30, 2016 9:38:31 GMT
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2016 9:38:31 GMT
Pay no heed - he's a fringe lunatic who has spent years making statements like that. I remember some very inflammatory ones after Lee Rigby's death.
Very much not fringe players (unfortunately) Michael Gove and Boris Johnson have seen their week-long love-in implode with the news that Gove has decided not to back Boris and will run for Tory leader himself. As I said last week when Cameron went, despite Tory attempts to say this will be a smooth leadership race, it's going to get very dirty. Of course, a compliant Murdoch media will paint it as a victory for democracy while vilifying Corbyn for digging his heels in.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 30, 2016 11:06:19 GMT
Post by jasonward on Jun 30, 2016 11:06:19 GMT
Gove goes in, Boris pulls out, I'm not sure if he realised he could never lead a united party or wether he now realises with no vision and no plan he could never lead the country.
|
|
|
Brexit
Jun 30, 2016 11:09:00 GMT
Post by acousticwolf on Jun 30, 2016 11:09:00 GMT
And so the bizarre nature of current UK politics continues onward ...
Cheers
Tony
|
|