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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 21:28:03 GMT
Thats how i always saw it The problem remains that the idea presented in Day was that just as with the intended screwdriver trick (re: shivering the door apart), the calculations for how to save Gallifrey were started by 1. I just transcribed the relevant part, pausing to do it one line at a time so any mistakes would be irrelevantly minimal: 11: Hello, Hello. Gallifrey high command. This is the Doctor Speaking 10: Hello, also the Doctor, can you hear me? War: Also the Doctor. Standing ready. General: Dear God, three of them. All my worst nightmares at once. 10: General, we have a plan. 11: We should point out at this moment it's a fairly terrible plan. 10: And almost certainly won't work. 11: I was happy with fairly terrible. 10: Sorry. Just thinking out loud. 11: We're flying our three TARDISes into your lower atmosphere. 10: Positioned at equidistant intervals around the globe. "Equidistant" is so grown up. War: Just about ready to do it. General: Ready to do what? 11: We're going to freeze Gallifrey General: I'm sorry. What? 10: using our tardis's we're going to free Gallifrey in a single moment of time. War: You know, like with those stasis cubes? A single moment of time held in a parallel pocket universe. 11: Except we're going to do it to a whole planet. 10: And all the people on it. General: What? Even if that were possible, which it isn't. Why would you do such a thing. 11: Because the alternative is burning. 10: And I've seen that. 11 :And I never want to see it again. General: We'd be lost in another universe. Frozen in a single moment, we....we'd have nothing. 11: You would have hope. And right now that is exactly what you don't have. General: THat's delusional. The calculations alone would take hundreds of years 11: Oh, hundreds and hundreds. 10: But don't worry, I started a very long time ago.
First Doctor shows up.
1. Calling to War Council of Gallifrey, this is The Doctor. <Others start showing up>
11: You might say, I've been doing this all my lives. General: <something> All twelve of them Person: No sir, all 13. Eyebrows: Grrrrrr! _______________________ That's not possible unless 1 started it and they all kept doing the calculations, regardless of how that contradicts oh, everything else the show has ever said about Doctor memories following a multi-doctor get together. Regardless of "possible", 11 straight-up says he'd been doing it "all my lives". He didn't even say "oh, used the Moment to plant the subroutine in the TARDIS just after I stole the thing" or some such. So, basically, after the events of Day rewrote the Doctor's timeline, it established a new timeline that he'd known all along that he would be joining the others to save Gallifrey at points throughout his life, but had to act as if he did not have that knowledge. That, or it's just another instance of the TV show ignoring its own continuity in order to make a splash in a particular episode - "just accept it" type stuff. That's how I see it now. It fits into my wider Time War theory of the three universal timelines. 1 classic doctors only, hints of a Time War in the future. 2 Doctors 9 and 10 post Time War. Everything pre-Time War is gone and rewritten. There are no classic Doctors, or Daleks etc. 3 after Ten defeats the return of Gallifrey the time lock is broken and the previous and post time war universes have merged bringing back the classic doctors and some of their adventures. Eleven rewrites the classic Doctors to build up to Day.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jan 7, 2017 0:04:48 GMT
I always assumed that they remembered only when together (ie crossover amnesia) but only as things happened for them (see Time Crash, and the factvthe seventh Doctor didn't remember fiver being there in Cold Fusion), so as it hadn't happened yet for War, 10 and 11 they didn't remember it. But as soon as they worked out their plans, they remembered getting together. But it still doesn't make sense. By that logic, War should still have known how Day was going to end as soon as he met up with Ten and Eleven. To me there's only one real answer which is that the Doctor rewrote his own timeline and this story takes place in the rewritten version. I like this theory because it makes the RTD era angst about the end of the Time War still very real at the time it happened. I dislike this theory because now I need to know which version(s) of the Doctor's timeline everything happened in. Not really, War wouldnt remember because it's happening "first" to him. Ten and eleven don't remember because their memory is being created in war at that moment. Eventuslly, War travels back to meet one, tells him the severity of the situation and sets the TARDIS working on the calculations. That could very well explain why the TARDIS is so erratic in those days. Anyway, they only remember as the earliest memory is created but due to the effects of crossing their own timelines forget what happens except for the eldest in the equation (so three remember Omega, but two doesn't, seven remembers Scientifica and eleven DOESNT remember saving Gallifrey because twleve was there). but they only, remember Time Crash, remember what happens as soon as it happens to their earlier selves.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 1:00:14 GMT
Anyway, they only remember as the earliest memory is created but due to the effects of crossing their own timelines forget what happens except for the eldest in the equation (so three remember Omega, but two doesn't, seven remembers Scientifica and eleven DOESNT remember saving Gallifrey because twleve was there). but they only, remember Time Crash, remember what happens as soon as it happens to their earlier selves. It's a teeny bit wonky when you apply all the visits to 1963 or 1999 to it, but I'd buy that. The Gallifreyans have a series of biological defence mechanisms in place when it comes to being temporally aware, the Doctor is shown to be exceptionally sensitive to certain anomalies that cause him to be violently ill ( Cold Fusion, Battlefield, Father Time, The Two Doctors, etc.). It's possible that in order to preserve his own future, his former selves shut off memory of events that they know have transpired in someone else's timestream. Assuming that there isn't an external influence that does it for them like the First Doctor being trapped in a time eddy that damaged his memory or the Second Doctor's memory of The Two Doctors being erased once he was exiled to Earth.
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Post by kimalysong on Jan 7, 2017 2:23:30 GMT
Well I finished honestly I have mixed feelings as the plot kind of lost me here but I did enjoy the Doctor and Companion pairings & mixings in this. Some nice interactions between everyone. This was also the first story where Chris really stood out to me. I think he had my favorite scenes in this story.
Patience I am sorry to say didn't do much for me. Maybe I needed more time with her.
Well I hope this isn't the last we hear from Chris & Roz. I would love to see what Big Finish could do with these characters in their own stories.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Jan 8, 2017 19:12:18 GMT
Listened to Cold Fusion over Fri/Saturday, I really enjoyed the dialogue (though it got a bit technobabily towards the end), performances (I was pleasantly surprised how well Waterhouse catches the Adric voice 35 years on) and music, but like kimalysong I was a little confused by some of the plot, I found my attention wondering a little during the middle episodes (nothing to do with the story itself, I just tend to do that with the longer stories anyway) the Patience/Doctor flashback/contact scenes were rather hard to follow at points, and even as a 6 parter I couldn't help but feel that there was a lot of plot compression (I haven't read the novel so I don't know if this is true) I would have liked to hear more of the 7th Doctor's adventures in the Ghosts' Universe...but perhaps as a non reader I've missed the point of the book, its a 5th Doctor story in which the 7th Doctor appears not a true multi Dr story.
A very busy, slightly confusing but very enjoyable multi Doctor story, though perhaps it will appeal more to those with greater knowledge of the Virgin stories.
8/10.
Out of interest, for those who have read the novel, what were the major changes/compressions?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 20:51:02 GMT
Listened to Cold Fusion over Fri/Saturday, I really enjoyed the dialogue (though it got a bit technobabily towards the end), performances (I was pleasantly surprised how well Waterhouse catches the Adric voice 35 years on) and music, but like kimalysong I was a little confused by some of the plot, I found my attention wondering a little during the middle episodes (nothing to do with the story itself, I just tend to do that with the longer stories anyway) the Patience/Doctor flashback/contact scenes were rather hard to follow at points, and even as a 6 parter I couldn't help but feel that there was a lot of plot compression (I haven't read the novel so I don't know if this is true) I would have liked to hear more of the 7th Doctor's adventures in the Ghosts' Universe...but perhaps as a non reader I've missed the point of the book, its a 5th Doctor story in which the 7th Doctor appears not a true multi Dr story. A very busy, slightly confusing but very enjoyable multi Doctor story, though perhaps it will appeal more to those with greater knowledge of the Virgin stories. 8/10. Out of interest, for those who have read the novel, what were the major changes/compressions? Honestly from what I can remember, a lot of it was translated as writ in the original book. It's a little less adult, a bit less visually-orientated and the dialogue has been truncated in some areas for the purposes of squeezing it into the timeframe. A few structural differences here and there too, one of the "episode" endings in the book has the train swept under the avalanche rather than the Fifth Doctor declaring that he will stop whoever is responsible for the rebel attacks. All in all, it's arguably one of the more faithful adaptations I've heard so far. I really wish we'd gotten something similar for All-Consuming Fire now because this six-parter really captures the spirit of the book. What happens to the womb-born children is a lot more explicit in the novel, Patience's pregnancy is to be aborted immediately and their housekeeper is murdered on the spot by the Chancellery Guard. There's a beautiful meshing of dialogue and prose for the adaptation with Patience's remembrance of old Gallifrey in the skitrain, the role assumed briefly by Peter Davison in the audio is actually of her eldest son in the book. The ending has the Doctors speculate that there may have been mechanisms in place like relativity displacers on the crashed TARDIS that may have tampered with their memory of the events. The Fifth and Seventh Doctor are much more contemptuous of one another in the novel as well, so when Seven gives the signal and Roz slams Five over the back of the head, it appears far less of an accident. There's a bit of wonderful imagery which highlights the difference between the novel and the audio (and the times really) when the two Doctors have met up in the Machine:
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2017 21:07:44 GMT
Actually, it's a bit difficult for me to tell which bits were confusing having read the novel, so I think a lot of what happens is more explicit there than here (particularly any segment with Patience's past). I've seen people scoff at the Virgin range for not having a lot going on, but honestly there's a lot to unpack and missing that visual dimension or that three-hundred-page count is a really big hurdle to overcome, it's not easy. There are some stories which I think could never be adapted because of how much needs to be squeezed into that Big Finish runtime without resorting to narration, so serious props to everyone who's contributed to these adaptations so far. It takes real skill to do these and do them well. Even the attempt is laudable.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 10, 2017 20:36:18 GMT
The Fifth and Seventh Doctor are much more contemptuous of one another in the novel as well, so when Seven gives the signal and Roz slams Five over the back of the head, it appears far less of an accident. I actually took it as completely intentional in the audio...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 0:48:03 GMT
The Fifth and Seventh Doctor are much more contemptuous of one another in the novel as well, so when Seven gives the signal and Roz slams Five over the back of the head, it appears far less of an accident. I actually took it as completely intentional in the audio... The novel has the Seventh Doctor's signal be to tap his nose, his response after his fifth incarnation is struck is "A palpable hit." There's a little more wiggle room in the audio because of the actor's performances, you can take it as a brief moment of absentmindedness on the elder Doctor's part or his final act of Machiavellian scheming so that he and his companions could leave without Five doing something about them. I'm more in the latter category since the novel is all about showing how relative the concepts of good and evil are. As the Ferutu admit, they would have found a way out and betrayed the bargain, so had Five been there on his own he would have destroyed our universe by letting them exist in that stalemate. Their universe is truly paradisial according to the Doctor and ultimately probably deserves to survive over ours, but the clincher there is that it must come at the sacrifice of our own existence. Ultimately, it just becomes a very glib question of survival. If you do not destroy them, you will be destroyed. It's a bit of foreshadowing for future Fifth Doctor stories actually, where a strategic victory does not mean a moral one (see Planet of Fire, Warriors of the Deep, Resurrection of the Daleks, etc.).
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Post by mark687 on Jan 22, 2017 13:57:51 GMT
An Extended Extra DL for this will be added to Customer Accounts from Tuesday 24th January
Regards
mark687
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Post by mark687 on Jan 24, 2017 10:32:52 GMT
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jan 25, 2017 12:27:47 GMT
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Feb 14, 2017 19:34:58 GMT
Biggest letdown: We finally get mention of genetic looms and Lungbarrow, but with plausible deniability. So, it can be argued that no definitive stance has been taken, despite what the Doctor says. Afraid I'm with you on this. Others jump for joy, I always felt it was a diminishment of the character as a person, as a parent and grandparent. But definitely Post Listen/Heaven Sent I have my own head canon wherein the Houses and Looms are more Harry Potter and off to an Academy house you go to become a Timelord, and you get Loomed when you do, making you a Timelord and not just a Gallifreyan. It's a squint but in my head it allows both natural parentage and all the depth of that AND the other stuff, and it stops me ranting about how stupid the idea is by itself. (Other stupid Sci-Fi idea number 98, evolving into energy. Life tends to complexity, it's a thing. Energy is not complex. Energy beings may occur "naturally" or be artificially induced but the evolution isn't happening) If you're going to disagree with me, fine. State it. I'm not changing my mind though so pages of reasons aren't welcome and will get TLDR. EDIT: On rereading your text perhaps we're not on the same page Did you WANT definitive confirmation of the Looms? Perhaps you do, and less equivocal confirmation to boot. I thought their "plausible deniability" went too far and they should have just cut it completely but that's my take on it.
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Post by Hieronymus on Feb 15, 2017 4:49:13 GMT
EDIT: On rereading your text perhaps we're not on the same page Did you WANT definitive confirmation of the Looms? Perhaps you do, and less equivocal confirmation to boot. I thought their "plausible deniability" went too far and they should have just cut it completely but that's my take on it. I just want a stance, one way or the other. It's the fact that this story puts the information out there is a way that brings up the subject, waves it in your face, but neither establishes nor squashes the idea. Having the issue resolved is the only point on which I feel strongly, whichever way it comes down.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2017 5:19:15 GMT
EDIT: On rereading your text perhaps we're not on the same page Did you WANT definitive confirmation of the Looms? Perhaps you do, and less equivocal confirmation to boot. I thought their "plausible deniability" went too far and they should have just cut it completely but that's my take on it. I just want a stance, one way or the other. It's the fact that this story puts the information out there is a way that brings up the subject, waves it in your face, but neither establishes nor squashes the idea. Having the issue resolved is the only point on which I feel strongly, whichever way it comes down. To be fair, the questions raised in Cold Fusion would eventually be solved in Lungbarrow less than a year later. That was the definitive article at the time and a bit unconventional given the approach of 1990s Doctor Who. It was all about building up the mystery of the character, Parkin's particular achievement being to infuse one of the least ambiguous of Doctors -- his fifth incarnation -- with this sense that there was more to him than first appeared. Authors certainly had their own notions on what they considered fact or fiction, but the more common approach was to take an intriguing concept, dangle it in front of readers and let them make their own mind up about it. Doctor Who's one of the very few fandoms where you can actually do that. There's no Gene Roddenberry, Joanne Rowling, George Lucas or other immutable figure to say what does and doesn't qualify for canon. I find that rather liberating.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Feb 15, 2017 12:40:07 GMT
I just want a stance, one way or the other. It's the fact that this story puts the information out there is a way that brings up the subject, waves it in your face, but neither establishes nor squashes the idea. Having the issue resolved is the only point on which I feel strongly, whichever way it comes down. To be fair, the questions raised in Cold Fusion would eventually be solved in Lungbarrow less than a year later. That was the definitive article at the time and a bit unconventional given the approach of 1990s Doctor Who. It was all about building up the mystery of the character, Parkin's particular achievement being to infuse one of the least ambiguous of Doctors -- his fifth incarnation -- with this sense that there was more to him than first appeared. Authors certainly had their own notions on what they considered fact or fiction, but the more common approach was to take an intriguing concept, dangle it in front of readers and let them make their own mind up about it. Doctor Who's one of the very few fandoms where you can actually do that. There's no Gene Roddenberry, Joanne Rowling, George Lucas or other immutable figure to say what does and doesn't qualify for canon. I find that rather liberating. Well it's the covering all bases thing that really annoys me about BF and the novels. Either they're in TV/BF continuity or they aren't. That still lets us as fans decide things for ourselves but THEY should know where they come down on it. If you're going to add Torchwood mentions to one adaptation and a DOTD call out in another (both of which pleased some fans and irritated others) then you can leave out stuff that adds nothing to the plot at all when you're not adapting material either side of the book or you can explain it properly. They got it right with Benny season 1, adapting to their own continuity and there is no reason not to do the same now. One of my favourite bits of the Holmes/Doctor crossover was that Holmes and Watson were cover identities for other people, but that was cut for some reason, leaving a gaping divide between it and the Jago & Litefoot series events with Conan Doyle, and confusing us further with Worlds of Big Finish. This isn't the 70s, we do pay attention 😀 And it isn't Lost, we ask for plot not "mystery".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 0:41:39 GMT
Well it's the covering all bases thing that really annoys me about BF and the novels. Either they're in TV/BF continuity or they aren't. That still lets us as fans decide things for ourselves but THEY should know where they come down on it. If you're going to add Torchwood mentions to one adaptation and a DOTD call out in another (both of which pleased some fans and irritated others) then you can leave out stuff that adds nothing to the plot at all when you're not adapting material either side of the book or you can explain it properly. They got it right with Benny season 1, adapting to their own continuity and there is no reason not to do the same now. One of my favourite bits of the Holmes/Doctor crossover was that Holmes and Watson were cover identities for other people, but that was cut for some reason, leaving a gaping divide between it and the Jago & Litefoot series events with Conan Doyle, and confusing us further with Worlds of Big Finish. This isn't the 70s, we do pay attention 😀 And it isn't Lost, we ask for plot not "mystery". A good mystery requires superb plotting, lest you end up with something like Lost. If the author doesn't know who the killer is, well... how is the audience supposed to? For Cold Fusion, specifically, I don't really understand why the explanation for how history was being mended by the time machine was excised and a reference to The Day of the Doctor stuck in its place. There was already a very reasonable explanation for events and it got dumped on the cutting room floor. A possible oversight, maybe, I'm not entirely sure. Canon welding on a show like Doctor Who is rather difficult because the voices of authority are always changing. Zagreus posits that the Eighth Doctor's adventures are all part of separate universes, but Mary's Story states that they all thrive in the same one. It's all a bit of a gallimaufry. The Audio Visuals must have taken place in some form because Frozen Time is loose a sequel to Endurance, the DWM comics must exist in some capacity because of The Maltese Penguin and The Ratings War, the EDAs are made reference to in The Zygon Who Fell to Earth and Nevermore, Benny's adventures on audio exist in the same continuity as the BF!Doctors judging from The Revolution... Ooh, hang on... A thought just occurred to me. The two volumes of the New Adventures of Bernice Summerfield imply pretty strongly that the New Adventures must have taken place in one form or another, otherwise how would the Seventh Doctor know of Bernice personally? Huh. Examining it that way, it all seems pretty straightforward. Erm... I suppose yes, is the answer here -- the novels are part of Big Finish continuity and the novel adaptations are treated much the same as the Target adaptations. Which is more canonical, Doctor Who and the Cave-Monsters or Doctor Who and the Silurians? Most probably the latter as it came before the former, but the novellas are a convenient substitute if you are unable to grab up the genuine article and, like those releases, there are a few notable changes.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Feb 16, 2017 14:47:26 GMT
As it is a series about time travel, paradoxes, parallel universes and rewriting time I consider everything equally canon/non-canon either all if it is valid in some way or none of it i.m.o.
But I don't really care about the continuity very much I just try and enjoy the stories on their own individual merits.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 19:55:04 GMT
But I don't really care about the continuity very much I just try and enjoy the stories on their own individual merits. That's the only way to do it really... otherwise you'd never sleep at night while your brain was busy trying to tie everything together from five decades!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2017 10:54:54 GMT
But I don't really care about the continuity very much I just try and enjoy the stories on their own individual merits. That's the only way to do it really... otherwise you'd never sleep at night while your brain was busy trying to tie everything together from five decades! Oh, yeah, definitely don't do it because you need to do it. It's best done if you want to do it, kind of like puzzling out a morning crossword puzzle. Me, I love linking things together and weaving a vast tapestry of continuity, I do it with the Gerry Anderson television shows as well. Do it because it's part of the fun.
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