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Post by jasonward on Oct 2, 2016 16:19:23 GMT
My perspective is, in terms of historical events, anything having occurred 45 years prior is fine, but anything after is kinda pushing it. Why 45 years? Anything that concentrated on The Holocaust (1941 - 1945) some 70 plus years ago would need to be tackled with extreme care and tact, on the hand, whilst some care and tack would still be needed a story concentrating on the events of the Waco siege (1993 - 23 years ago) would be much easier. Whilst time does indeed provide distance and remove some of the problems a story teller might face, it's not the arbiter of what is OK and what isn't and I really can't see how there could be a bright line between what is OK and what is not based on a date. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 19:36:23 GMT
My perspective is, in terms of historical events, anything having occurred 45 years prior is fine, but anything after is kinda pushing it. Why 45 years? Anything that concentrated on The Holocaust (1941 - 1945) some 70 plus years ago would need to be tackled with extreme care and tact, on the hand, whilst some care and tack would still be needed a story concentrating on the events of the Waco siege (1993 - 23 years ago) would be much easier. Whilst time does indeed provide distance and remove some of the problems a story teller might face, it's not the arbiter of what is OK and what isn't and I really can't see how there could be a bright line between what is OK and what is not based on a date. You make a very good point. I personally think a holocaust story is possibly too taboo at the moment. Yet I could see that in many years time (perhaps 100 years) it'd be treated a bit in the way of the Crusade. |
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Post by mark687 on Oct 2, 2016 20:33:38 GMT
Danny Pink A former soldier struggling with PTSD from the real life ongoing wars played completely without sympathy or empathy and awkward attempts to made relatable in the pure fiction scenarios in the show Regards mark687 |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 21:49:47 GMT
I don't know if anything is too taboo for Who, as always with any story it depends on how well it's actually written. Sensitive issues need a bit more care, but they shouldn't necessarily be taboo. In the example above (Danny Pink), his condition was not dealt with in a proper way and was either poorly written or badly acted... or very likely, both! That doesn't mean that PTSD couldn't have been dealt with properly, but I felt no sympathy for Danny Pink at all and was glad when he died.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 22:25:38 GMT
I don't know if anything is too taboo for Who, as always with any story it depends on how well it's actually written. Sensitive issues need a bit more care, but they shouldn't necessarily be taboo. In the example above (Danny Pink), his condition was not dealt with in a proper way and was either poorly written or badly acted... or very likely, both! That doesn't mean that PTSD couldn't have been dealt with properly, but I felt no sympathy for Danny Pink at all and was glad when he died. As someone who suffers from PTSD himself, I actually found the character really rather insulting in that regard and I do mean insulting. Particularly the Doctor's (rather irrational given The Zygon Inversion) treatment of him in The Caretaker, someone who I'm certain has been through his own personal patch of hell hundreds, if not millions of times over. |
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Post by mrperson on Oct 3, 2016 18:10:14 GMT
My perspective is, in terms of historical events, anything having occurred 45 years prior is fine, but anything after is kinda pushing it. Why 45 years? Anything that concentrated on The Holocaust (1941 - 1945) some 70 plus years ago would need to be tackled with extreme care and tact, on the hand, whilst some care and tack would still be needed a story concentrating on the events of the Waco siege (1993 - 23 years ago) would be much easier. Whilst time does indeed provide distance and remove some of the problems a story teller might face, it's not the arbiter of what is OK and what isn't and I really can't see how there could be a bright line between what is OK and what is not based on a date. "Let's Kill Hitler" was bad enough. 1938 was not a good year either. I don't appreciate that kind of "humor." I'd also note that while plenty of things make fun of Hitler, nobody tries to be hilarious about the Khmer Rouge, about Pol Pot's victims, about the slaughter in Darfur, about the tens upon tens of millions that starved or otherwise died under Stalin. But Hitler and Nazis? Well, let's whip out our funny funny fake German accents and behave like morons. That's humorous. /wretch. Now, that's not to say that evil times are taboo for Who in general. There's a right way and a wrong way to address them. Comedy is the wrong way. The Peterloo Massacre is how it is done, with respect and gravity. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 0:08:20 GMT
But Hitler and Nazis? Well, let's whip out our funny fake German accents and behave like morons. I see you've heard Colditz too !!!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 8:49:24 GMT
Why 45 years? Anything that concentrated on The Holocaust (1941 - 1945) some 70 plus years ago would need to be tackled with extreme care and tact, on the hand, whilst some care and tack would still be needed a story concentrating on the events of the Waco siege (1993 - 23 years ago) would be much easier. Whilst time does indeed provide distance and remove some of the problems a story teller might face, it's not the arbiter of what is OK and what isn't and I really can't see how there could be a bright line between what is OK and what is not based on a date. "Let's Kill Hitler" was bad enough. 1938 was not a good year either. I don't appreciate that kind of "humor." I'd also note that while plenty of things make fun of Hitler, nobody tries to be hilarious about the Khmer Rouge, about Pol Pot's victims, about the slaughter in Darfur, about the tens upon tens of millions that starved or otherwise died under Stalin. But Hitler and Nazis? Well, let's whip out our funny funny fake German accents and behave like morons. That's humorous. /wretch. Now, that's not to say that evil times are taboo for Who in general. There's a right way and a wrong way to address them. Comedy is the wrong way. The Peterloo Massacre is how it is done, with respect and gravity. and Benny Summerfield's meticulous, sadistic and thoroughly dehumanising torture at the hands of Johann Schmidt. A brutality so complete that she breaks down pleading in tears because they threaten to shave her head, the last remnant of her humanity gone forever. That is all. |
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Post by Ela on Oct 9, 2016 17:08:04 GMT
The Hitler cameo in Let's Kill Hitler was really besides the point of the whole episode. Don't know why they bothered to even include him. (Except, I guess, that thing - can't remember what it's called - was trying to wipe out villains of history. But still pointless. They could have done that differently.)
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 9, 2016 17:13:09 GMT
The Hitler cameo in Let's Kill Hitler was really besides the point of the whole episode. Don't know why they bothered to even include him. (Except, I guess, that thing - can't remember what it's called - was trying to wipe out villains of history. But still pointless. They could have done that differently.) I never understood Hitlers appearance. There job was to kill Hitler. Wouldn't Hitlers death be a fixed point in history? |
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Post by Ela on Oct 9, 2016 17:30:01 GMT
The Hitler cameo in Let's Kill Hitler was really besides the point of the whole episode. Don't know why they bothered to even include him. (Except, I guess, that thing - can't remember what it's called - was trying to wipe out villains of history. But still pointless. They could have done that differently.) I never understood Hitlers appearance. There job was to kill Hitler. Wouldn't Hitlers death be a fixed point in history? Yes, it would. If I recall correctly, they came at the time he was supposed to die. But what would be the point of that? And, admittedly, I may be misremembering. |
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 9, 2016 18:57:52 GMT
I never understood Hitlers appearance. There job was to kill Hitler. Wouldn't Hitlers death be a fixed point in history? Yes, it would. If I recall correctly, they came at the time he was supposed to die. But what would be the point of that? And, admittedly, I may be misremembering. They arrived in 1938, but it should have been 1940. Yet, they still wanted to kill him two years ahead of schedule. |
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Post by Ela on Oct 9, 2016 19:13:24 GMT
Gotcha. So I didn't remember correctly. It's been a while since I saw the story, but I thought they were doing it in some way so as to not alter fixed history.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 9, 2016 19:55:36 GMT
The Hitler cameo in Let's Kill Hitler was really besides the point of the whole episode. Don't know why they bothered to even include him. No idea but I almost get the feeling that someone polled kids as to what the first thing they'd do if they had a time machine would be, and there turned out to be some obvious limits on how far the show could go to indulge them - so they took the premise as far as they could and then used it as a springboard for Melody's story? |
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Post by Ela on Oct 9, 2016 20:21:41 GMT
The Hitler cameo in Let's Kill Hitler was really besides the point of the whole episode. Don't know why they bothered to even include him. No idea but I almost get the feeling that someone polled kids as to what the first thing they'd do if they had a time machine would be, and there turned out to be some obvious limits on how far the show could go to indulge them - so they took the premise as far as they could and then used it as a springboard for Melody's story? Seriously? I doubt most kids even know who Hitler is. My generation knew, cause it was more recent historically, but I don't think he's so talked about among kids now. Teens, I'd expect to know, if they've had any history, but not necessarily younger kids. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 1:25:31 GMT
No idea but I almost get the feeling that someone polled kids as to what the first thing they'd do if they had a time machine would be, and there turned out to be some obvious limits on how far the show could go to indulge them - so they took the premise as far as they could and then used it as a springboard for Melody's story? Seriously? I doubt most kids even know who Hitler is. My generation knew, cause it was more recent historically, but I don't think he's so talked about among kids now. Teens, I'd expect to know, if they've had any history, but not necessarily younger kids. Ela, allow me to introduce you to Godwin's Law, a bit of silliness my generation and the generation after me are more than aware of because they have grown up with the internet. I'd be very surprised if a kid didn't know about Hitler and/or the Nazis even vaguely, if they have access to the web or even just a television. |
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Post by Ela on Oct 10, 2016 4:41:12 GMT
Seriously? I doubt most kids even know who Hitler is. My generation knew, cause it was more recent historically, but I don't think he's so talked about among kids now. Teens, I'd expect to know, if they've had any history, but not necessarily younger kids. Ela, allow me to introduce you to Godwin's Law, a bit of silliness my generation and the generation after me are more than aware of because they have grown up with the internet. I'd be very surprised if a kid didn't know about Hitler and/or the Nazis even vaguely, if they have access to the web or even just a television. Ha. Actually, come to think of it, my kids knew who Hitler was when they were in younger grades, but it's because they went to Jewish school and they learned what Holocaust Remembrance Day is (a day in memory of those murdered by Hitler). It wasn't because of the internet or television. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 20:43:20 GMT
Ela, allow me to introduce you to Godwin's Law, a bit of silliness my generation and the generation after me are more than aware of because they have grown up with the internet. I'd be very surprised if a kid didn't know about Hitler and/or the Nazis even vaguely, if they have access to the web or even just a television. Ha. Actually, come to think of it, my kids knew who Hitler was when they were in younger grades, but it's because they went to Jewish school and they learned what Holocaust Remembrance Day is (a day in memory of those murdered by Hitler). It wasn't because of the internet or television. A wonderful little demonstration of common humanity that.  If my memory serves me correctly, I think I first learnt of that particular period of history from a Horrible Histories paperback in the school library, so maybe television only played a small part in filling in the gaps. |
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Post by Ela on Oct 11, 2016 1:42:43 GMT
Alright, then. |
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Post by mrperson on Oct 12, 2016 15:06:31 GMT
The Hitler cameo in Let's Kill Hitler was really besides the point of the whole episode. Don't know why they bothered to even include him. (Except, I guess, that thing - can't remember what it's called - was trying to wipe out villains of history. But still pointless. They could have done that differently.) 1. "They" as in the miniturized people in the shape-changing machine? That was "The teleselecta"; the people are there to torture historical criminals just before their moment of death because that's justice in the future, I guess. 2. The real reason that Hitler was there was to "piss off Hitler, now that he's dead" by "[taking] the mickey out of him, make him a joke, make him be punched by Rory." (Moffatt). www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2011/08/doctor-whos-day-roundup-steven-moffat-says-taking-the-mickey-out-of-hitler-was-the-plan3. As far as I could make out from the story, it was supposed to be there to torture Hitler, which makes either the Teleselecta crew or Moffatt rather incompetent because Hitler doesn't die until 1945, when he shoots himself in a bunker. Anyway, the machine is going to meet Hitler to do something when Hitler gets scared and shoots Mel by accident, instead of the "Teleselecta". Then she regenerates and the Teleselecta chases River, presumably to torture her (as indeed it ultimately does for a bit later int he episode). But that too makes no sense on the story's plotline because River dies in the Library's hard drive room, saving Ten, and time traveling justice-torturers should probably know that. If she dies earlier in her timeline - "now" from the episode's perspective - then she cannot save 10 who cannot become 11, whom she then cannot meet in her own past. She also cannot shoot the Doctor at the lake if it happens then. It's one of those "just accept it" plots in which whatever rules for time travel might still 'exist' for the show are ignored. It really was built around trying to make fun of Hitler, which has got to be the epitome of bad story-telling. |
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If my memory serves me correctly, I think I first learnt of that particular period of history from a Horrible Histories paperback in the school library, so maybe television only played a small part in filling in the gaps.