|
|
Post by newt5996 on Aug 24, 2016 3:44:06 GMT
Dick Sharples Prison in Space is often hated by fans for being too much in its time, but consider this. It shows a world dominated by women who have bullied their way into power and essentially neutered all the men in the society. These ideas aren't too far off as to what third wave feminism (Social Justice Warriors) wants to happen. What if it's a cautionary tale about tipping the balance of the genders towards one gender?
|
|
|
|
Post by icecreamdf on Aug 24, 2016 6:13:43 GMT
I think its really just trying to make men empathize with the plight of women by reversing the roles. Men are suppossed to look at this society that is treating them unfairly, and then rethink how they are treating women. Its a silly story, but its fun.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Aug 24, 2016 11:01:55 GMT
Well I just spent the last 20 minutes reading on what 3rd Wave Feminism is, and in so much as it's anything coherent, it is cannot be characterised as wanting "world dominated by women who have bullied their way into power and essentially neutered all the men in the society" or anything like it. It would appear to me that your beliefs around what 3rd Wave Feminism are reflect far more on yourself than they cause any light at all to be cast on the subject at hand.
In considering your premise I find it absurd.
|
|
|
|
Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Aug 24, 2016 11:06:00 GMT
That's the point, it's absurdist satire.
The whole concept is taking the piss out of - on the surface - feminism, but when you look deeper it's taking the piss out of structured sexism but execution wise ... It falls down somewhat by being black and white, typically 60s Who "they're the bad guys because they pick on Doctor Who" mindset.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 15:57:58 GMT
Well you could read as being about balance of the genders, but what I took from it was the message that the feminists who were very much prominent at the time were wrong and a woman's role in life was to find the rught man because if women were ever put in charge it would be a disaster and an absolute farce.
Hasten to add those aren't my views and this is one of my least favourite stories, valuable only as a social artefact of it's time. Thankfully I think most of the world now knows better.
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Aug 24, 2016 16:12:23 GMT
Well you could read as being about balance of the genders, but what I took from it was the message that the feminists who were very much prominent at the time were wrong and a woman's role in life was to find the rught man because if women were ever put in charge it would be a disaster and an absolute farce. Hasten to add those aren't my views and this is one of my least favourite stories, valuable only as a social artefact of it's time. Thankfully I think most of the world now knows better. The message I thought it was trying to convey was that feminists were misandrists and that as such the inevitable conclusion was a female dominated world where men were subservient, but in the end this would ultimately fail "as clearly women needed men". But feminism is not misandrist, and never was about swapping traditional roles of men with women. I saw Prison in Space as very of it's time, dated from the moment it was written, as you say brians, interesting as a commentary on the world as it was but with little to nothing to say about the modern world. |
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Aug 24, 2016 16:37:06 GMT
Well you could read as being about balance of the genders, but what I took from it was the message that the feminists who were very much prominent at the time were wrong and a woman's role in life was to find the rught man because if women were ever put in charge it would be a disaster and an absolute farce. Hasten to add those aren't my views and this is one of my least favourite stories, valuable only as a social artefact of it's time. Thankfully I think most of the world now knows better. The message I thought it was trying to convey was that feminists were misandrists and that as such the inevitable conclusion was a female dominated world where men were subservient, but in the end this would ultimately fail "as clearly women needed men". But feminism is not misandrist, and never was about swapping traditional roles of men with women. I saw Prison in Space as very of it's time, dated from the moment it was written, as you say brians, interesting as a commentary on the world as it was but with little to nothing to say about the modern world. I haven't listened to this one yet, but based on what's been said in this thread, sounds as though Jason has it about right as to the message. There have been other stories from that era and earlier with a similar message. Very wrong-headed, in my opinion, and a total misunderstanding of feminism. So rather than being "ahead of its time", as the title of this thread is asking, I would say it sounds as though it's way behind the times. |
|
|
|
Post by coffeeaddict on Aug 24, 2016 16:47:56 GMT
You could argue that it shows the opposite of what the OP states. In any case it is a poorly thought out mindset regardless the side the writer was trying to argue.
It is unfortunate that there continues to exist a notion that gender balance is a bad thing. Furthermore, it is a shame that there remains so much work to bring about balance, equality - or whatever you want to call it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Aug 24, 2016 17:11:48 GMT
It is unfortunate that there continues to exist a notion that gender balance is a bad thing. Furthermore, it is a shame that there remains so much work to bring about balance, equality - or whatever you want to call it. Agreed. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 21:04:08 GMT
In response to the OP's question, and keeping it brief... No, it wasn't!
Also, I didn't think it was much of a story either.
|
|
|
|
Post by newt5996 on Aug 24, 2016 21:27:45 GMT
Just a little clarification on what I meant in the original post.
1. Third Wave Feminism in this context is the feminists who argue on non-issues and start things like #killallmen and #diecisscum and complains about how awful and sexist the first world is, which it really isn't. I may however be thinking of fourth wave feminism if that is a thing.
2. I am in no way inferring that the story is perfect. Several scenes are very of the time, that spanking scene while hilariously bad comes to mind.
And to combat anyone who may say there isn't gender balance already I agree. Now women actually do hold a bit more leeway in several areas in society in the First World. Evidence you may ask, women receive more alimony,, child custody, shorter prison sentences, scholarship opportunities because they are women and are automatically believed when accusing a man of violence.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 22:04:01 GMT
Just a little clarification on what I meant in the original post. 1. Third Wave Feminism in this context is the feminists who argue on non-issues and start things like #killallmen and #diecisscum and complains about how awful and sexist the first world is, which it really isn't. I may however be thinking of fourth wave feminism if that is a thing. The word I think you're after in this context is "misandry" which acts as the gender distaff to "misogyny". It's basically the flip side to the extremism from men and isn't really what third wave feminism is about as far as I'm aware. The first wave sought to vote, the second to equal opportunities in the workforce and the third for the abolition of gender stereotypes, I think. It's difficult to talk about the overarching goals of the third wave because it's still going on now as we speak. And to combat anyone who may say there isn't gender balance already I agree. Now women actually do hold a bit more leeway in several areas in society in the First World. Evidence you may ask, women receive more alimony, child custody, shorter prison sentences, scholarship opportunities because they are women and are automatically believed when accusing a man of violence. There are a lot of double standards floating around for both sides because of preestablished societal norms and basic biological differences. There are some who still cringe at a man wearing a dress because it's not socially acceptable and there are some who don't let women drink because it's not ladylike. It's a big messy topic with a lot of angles to cover, but as to how it relates to Prison in Space... Yeah, I'd have to say the women-dominated society is very much a pulp 50s idea dragged into the late 1960s where women are treated as this bizarre Other that can only be seen and understood from afar. The story is only ahead of its time in that there are now equal opportunities for open hatred as of the internet's emergence. It's not really comparable to say... how Vengeance on Varos is much like reality television (or voting) nowadays. |
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Aug 24, 2016 22:06:33 GMT
You are incorrect about one thing, newt5996. Or at least one thing that I take issue with. The world is still quite sexist, even the so-called first world. It's sometimes more subtle than it used to be (though not always) but the sexism is most definitely still there. It shows up in pay inequity, lack of promotions for women and many other ways. And wow, if you think women are automatically believed when accusing a man of violence, I don't know where you've been. Heard about blaming the victim? It's still alive and well. I don't know the statistics on women receiving alimony, child custody, shorter prison sentences and scholarship opportunities because they are women. You may be correct that women are favored in all of these, but without statistics, I don't accept the statements at face value. If you are making the claim, back it up.  |
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Aug 24, 2016 23:00:54 GMT
Evidence you may ask, women receive more alimony,, child custody, shorter prison sentences, scholarship opportunities because they are women and are automatically believed when accusing a man of violence. Not knowing if that's coprrect or not, but personally all those excepting scholarships seems to me to be just gender bias as it always was, women get more alimony because it tends to be the man that earns more in marriage, women tend to get child custody because women are still the primary care givers... |
|
|
|
Post by newt5996 on Aug 24, 2016 23:31:27 GMT
You are incorrect about one thing, newt5996. Or at least one thing that I take issue with. The world is still quite sexist, even the so-called first world. It's sometimes more subtle than it used to be (though not always) but the sexism is most definitely still there. It shows up in pay inequity, lack of promotions for women and many other ways. And wow, if you think women are automatically believed when accusing a man of violence, I don't know where you've been. Heard about blaming the victim? It's still alive and well. I don't know the statistics on women receiving alimony, child custody, shorter prison sentences and scholarship opportunities because they are women. You may be correct that women are favored in all of these, but without statistics, I don't accept the statements at face value. If you are making the claim, back it up. First pay inequality is not an actual thing. It has been illegal since 1964 in US and 1970 in the UK. I'm guessing you are referencing that wage gap, which is a statistic reached by taking the average wages of both men and women without taking into account that women take lower paying jobs and less hours worked. While victim blaming does happen, that is something that really won't ever stop. Women are believed when there are accusations of violence against men. If they weren't there wouldn't be women's shelters where any woman can go if they are abused while when men are abused and try anything they will be laughed at even when at least (from a 2010 study which has fluctuated) 50% of abuse victims are men. Women having shorter prison sentences: www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspxScholarships for women only: www.scholarshipsandgrants.us/scholarships-for-women/www.quora.com/Is-it-sexist-if-a-scholarship-is-only-open-to-women (While this is a forum there are statistics already gathered explaining how there are scholarships for women) Domestic Violence against men: www.medicaldaily.com/domestic-violence-against-men-women-more-likely-be-intimate-terrorists-controlling-behavior-290662www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violenceAlimony/Child Custody: www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/p60-246.pdfOnly one Male shelter as of 2016: www.rawstory.com/2016/02/first-of-its-kind-domestic-violence-shelter-for-all-male-victims-opens-in-arkansas/ |
|
|
|
Post by coffeeaddict on Aug 24, 2016 23:32:26 GMT
...scholarship opportunities because they are women and are automatically believed when accusing a man of violence. Can you back this statement up? Daily in newspapers, tv and Internet news sites there are stories of women being laughed out of police stations and court rooms because they aren't believed when stating they are victims of violence. Victims groups still have to speak about how a large proportion of women are afraid to report domestic violence, rape and other crimes because they won't be believed, it will cost them their career, families or even their lives. Your statement is lacking factual grounding. |
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Aug 24, 2016 23:39:48 GMT
First pay inequality is not an actual thing. It has been illegal since 1964 in US and 1970 in the UK. I'm guessing you are referencing that wage gap, which is a statistic reached by taking the average wages of both men and women without taking into account that women take lower paying jobs and less hours worked. Data doesn't seem to back that up. |
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Aug 24, 2016 23:45:34 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by jasonward on Aug 24, 2016 23:58:40 GMT
But above all else, from what I've read, one of the major thrusts of the 3rd wave of feminism is gender inequality and is somewhat tied up with the blurring of what gender is, and gender identity.
None of which is about women vs. men, it's about regardless of gender you should have the same opportunity, that includes men.
It's very odd to claim that men are discriminated against routinely by the very people campaigning for gender equality.
As for the people, regardless of who they are, what they are, and what cause they identify themselves with, who issue statements of hate, are just hateful people, but those people by speaking their hate don't invalidate what they identify themselves with.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 23:59:45 GMT
(I just want to draw a line in the sand here and gently remind everyone that wherever this discussion goes try not go straight to anger and think it's a personal attack. It's a very delicate topic that'll require a bit of leeway.)
(Here is my line of civility:
It's a very nice line methinks.)
|
|
