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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 8:20:46 GMT
I think it would be fine so long as it was subtle but I can't imagine they'd be allowed to have the Doctor's opinion be biased towards the left or right wing. He always tends to have a neutral approach to politics (Kill The Moon being a good example) unless he's trying to make a pacifistic statement (Doctor Who and the Silurians). I rate it being subtle. I like the Doctor being neutral because, in modern times, the Doctor being a figurehead doesn't work. Subtlety is key when doing Brexit. That was one of my key problems with Zygon two-parter. I thought The Zygon Invasion/Inversion was fine but I can see why some might find it preachy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 8:34:25 GMT
I had the same here, Doctor Who is usually a lot better with its political commentary. Take The God Complex for example, where the Muslim character Rita says -- "Don't be afraid." That's a beautiful bit of subtext, it almost flies right past you if you're not paying attention. Ironically, The Zygon Invasion also feels really black-and-white despite its subject matter too. Drawing parallels to Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons really didn't do the story any favours either because that show dealt with the infiltrator concept a lot more harshly. We kill your friends, your family, the ones you trust and respect, we replace them with our own people and use them to hurt you. Badly. We never got to know any of the Zygons outside of Oswald, so these people being ousted by their own kind as defectors and traitors are left with no voice. And it's not as if there wasn't any opportunity for exploring some of the greyer aspects of terrorism and infiltration like having a Zygon character who is press-ganged into it for fear of his brood, a UNIT missile base shoot down their own plane, a human media character trying to ramp up people's paranoia, the Doctor going to help the terrorists and UNIT coming down on him for trying to save the lives of enemy combatants, etc. There's a lot that could've been done if only they hadn't pulled their punches. You don't want to be subtle about it? Okay, that could work to your favour. You want to make it a horribly grey situation? Show us how horribly grey it can get. If there's one thing I know children hate, it's being talked down to. My problem is that is that the Doctor's role in the story is just Steven Moffat's and Peter Harness's voice piece. It's like he's just accidentally wandered onto set, isn't it? I was surprised by how superfluous he was to the events of the story. He was there to make speeches, not be a character. Come to think of it, Kate Stewart didn't fare particularly well either, her storyline more or less just existed to fill up space. It's a shame really. The way she was introduced back in The Power of Three was perfect because she wasn't living in her father's shadow and yet every appearance since they've tried to make her the poor man's Brigadier. If you go back and rewatch Downtime, there's enough there to make her own character. Just look at how different Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart was to her ancestor.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 8:36:44 GMT
My problem is that is that the Doctor's role in the story is just Steven Moffat's and Peter Harness's voice piece. It's like he's just accidentally wandered onto set, isn't it? I was surprised by how superfluous he was to the events of the story. He was there to make speeches, not be a character. Come to think of it, Kate Stewart didn't fare particularly well either, her storyline more or less just existed to fill up space. It's a shame really. The way she was introduced back in The Power of Three was perfect because she wasn't living in her father's shadow and yet every appearance since they've tried to make her the poor man's Brigadier. If you go back and rewatch Downtime, there's enough there to make her own character. Just look at how different Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart was to her ancestor. Kate Lethbridge-Stewart basically is the poor man's Brigadier. That's why we need Captain Jack back to fill the new series Brigadier role.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 8:50:20 GMT
My problem is that is that the Doctor's role in the story is just Steven Moffat's and Peter Harness's voice piece. It's like he's just accidentally wandered onto set, isn't it? I was surprised by how superfluous he was to the events of the story. He was there to make speeches, not be a character. Come to think of it, Kate Stewart didn't fare particularly well either, her storyline more or less just existed to fill up space. It's a shame really. The way she was introduced back in The Power of Three was perfect because she wasn't living in her father's shadow and yet every appearance since they've tried to make her the poor man's Brigadier. If you go back and rewatch Downtime, there's enough there to make her own character. Just look at how different Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart was to her ancestor. The problem with her and Osgood is that they are the metaphorical presence of fan service. In her first Doctor Who story, she's actually pretty good, but afterwards she's just the Brigadier's daughter and that's it. The problem with the Moffat era and continuity references is that that there isn't any point to them. The Zygons were also useless in Zygon Invasion/Inversion. They were nothing like the Zygons most of us know. I personally find it a terrible shame they weren't brought back with RTD because then they would at least have made them Zygons! They might as well have just gotten the Blathereen to take their place, because at least they have been fairly good. I just don't get Moffat. He has a very skewed perspective of what the fans want and I don't particularly rate him as showurnner, since it seems he can't really run a popular show, effectively alone. It's a shame because his TV stories before he became showrunner were some of the best. I'm seriously looking forward to Chibnall now, due to the fact all his TV stories have had interesting concepts and fleshed out characters. Besides, he seems better as a showrunner based on his other work and has seemingly learnt a lot since Cyberwoman. I almost expect it to be a hybrid era ( ) of the RTD, Letts and Hinchcliffe era, based on his previous stories. And that we'll probably finally see that Sea-Devil story.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 8:54:32 GMT
It's like he's just accidentally wandered onto set, isn't it? I was surprised by how superfluous he was to the events of the story. He was there to make speeches, not be a character. Come to think of it, Kate Stewart didn't fare particularly well either, her storyline more or less just existed to fill up space. It's a shame really. The way she was introduced back in The Power of Three was perfect because she wasn't living in her father's shadow and yet every appearance since they've tried to make her the poor man's Brigadier. If you go back and rewatch Downtime, there's enough there to make her own character. Just look at how different Kadiatu Lethbridge-Stewart was to her ancestor. Kate Lethbridge-Stewart basically is the poor man's Brigadier. That's why we need Captain Jack back to fill the new series Brigadier role. The problem I'd say is that Moffat makes character's specifically significant for the future. However, every other showrunner got there iconic characters by chance, more than forcing them. Unlike Kate. Unlike Osgood. Unlike River. Unlike Madame Kovarian. Unlike Clara. Unlike Amy. Unlike Danny. Unlike Rory. Unlike Strax. The funny thing is that the most interesting character in Moffat's era was only meant to be in one story. By this I mean Brian, which is probably why Chibnall's now showrunner.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 9:56:58 GMT
Kate Lethbridge-Stewart basically is the poor man's Brigadier. That's why we need Captain Jack back to fill the new series Brigadier role. The problem I'd say is that Moffat makes character's specifically significant for the future. However, every other showrunner got there iconic characters by chance, more than forcing them. Unlike Kate. Unlike Osgood. Unlike River. Unlike Madame Kovarian. Unlike Clara. Unlike Amy. Unlike Danny. Unlike Rory. Unlike Strax. The funny thing is that the most interesting character in Moffat's era was only meant to be in one story. By this I mean Brian, which is probably why Chibnall's now showrunner. Brian was such a charming character. He's like the Wilf of Moffat's era to me; it's a shame he hasn't had a chance to return anytime soon.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 18, 2016 10:00:12 GMT
Kate Lethbridge-Stewart basically is the poor man's Brigadier. That's why we need Captain Jack back to fill the new series Brigadier role. The problem I'd say is that Moffat makes character's specifically significant for the future. However, every other showrunner got there iconic characters by chance, more than forcing them. Unlike Kate. Unlike Osgood. Unlike River. Unlike Madame Kovarian. Unlike Clara. Unlike Amy. Unlike Danny. Unlike Rory. Unlike Strax. The funny thing is that the most interesting character in Moffat's era was only meant to be in one story. By this I mean Brian, which is probably why Chibnall's now showrunner. Unlike Rose, unlike Captain Jack, unlike Mickey...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 10:33:28 GMT
The problem I'd say is that Moffat makes character's specifically significant for the future. However, every other showrunner got there iconic characters by chance, more than forcing them. Unlike Kate. Unlike Osgood. Unlike River. Unlike Madame Kovarian. Unlike Clara. Unlike Amy. Unlike Danny. Unlike Rory. Unlike Strax. The funny thing is that the most interesting character in Moffat's era was only meant to be in one story. By this I mean Brian, which is probably why Chibnall's now showrunner. Unlike Rose, unlike Captain Jack, unlike Mickey... Perhaps Rose, but she was the main character over the Doctor. Mickey was originally only in 2 episodes, so no. Captain Jack was originally only a companion, they never foresaw his spin-off. So, Mr. Tedious, your NuWho hate doesn't apply this time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 10:33:50 GMT
The problem I'd say is that Moffat makes character's specifically significant for the future. However, every other showrunner got there iconic characters by chance, more than forcing them. Unlike Kate. Unlike Osgood. Unlike River. Unlike Madame Kovarian. Unlike Clara. Unlike Amy. Unlike Danny. Unlike Rory. Unlike Strax. The funny thing is that the most interesting character in Moffat's era was only meant to be in one story. By this I mean Brian, which is probably why Chibnall's now showrunner. Brian was such a charming character. He's like the Wilf of Moffat's era to me; it's a shame he hasn't had a chance to return anytime soon. I'd say the problem is that he pretty much can't return.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 18, 2016 10:36:16 GMT
Unlike Rose, unlike Captain Jack, unlike Mickey... Perhaps Rose, but she was the main character over the Doctor. Mickey was originally only in 2 episodes, so no. Captain Jack was originally only a companion, they never foresaw his spin-off. So, Mr. Tedious, you're NuWho hate doesn't apply this time. And, yet, you have all this hate for Moffat NuWho!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 10:37:02 GMT
Perhaps Rose, but she was the main character over the Doctor. Mickey was originally only in 2 episodes, so no. Captain Jack was originally only a companion, they never foresaw his spin-off. So, Mr. Tedious, you're NuWho hate doesn't apply this time. And, yet, you have all this hate for Moffat NuWho! That's because it's genuinely everything wrong with Doctor Who amalgamated into one era. And it could have been so much better, if more care was taken with it.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 10:46:15 GMT
Brian was such a charming character. He's like the Wilf of Moffat's era to me; it's a shame he hasn't had a chance to return anytime soon. I'd say the problem is that he pretty much can't return. I'd say there's ways but it would have to fit the story. Did the Doctor ever tell Brian what happened to the Ponds, for instance?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 10:51:17 GMT
I'd say the problem is that he pretty much can't return. I'd say there's ways but it would have to fit the story. Did the Doctor ever tell Brian what happened to the Ponds, for instance? www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWU6XL9xI4k
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 11:01:38 GMT
I've seen that but as it wasn't filmed, we don't know if it actually happened.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 11:11:43 GMT
I've seen that but as it wasn't filmed, we don't know if it actually happened. To be honest, yeah, it is cannon, really, isn't it?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 18, 2016 11:13:33 GMT
I've seen that but as it wasn't filmed, we don't know if it actually happened. There are no such things as plotholes. Its up to the viewer to decide what they think happened!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 13:41:50 GMT
I've seen that but as it wasn't filmed, we don't know if it actually happened. There are no such things as plotholes. Its up to the viewer to decide what they think happened! That's a Moffat quote isn't it?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Oct 18, 2016 15:48:14 GMT
I've seen that but as it wasn't filmed, we don't know if it actually happened. To be honest, yeah, it is cannon, really, isn't it? Canon is such a loose term that it's hard to say, especially with something like storyboards.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 16:00:17 GMT
And it could have been so much better, if more care was taken with it. Well, we could also say that about a lot of old Doctor Who episodes!
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Oct 18, 2016 16:05:00 GMT
And it could have been so much better, if more care was taken with it. Well, we could also say that about a lot of old Doctor Who episodes! Examples, please!
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